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Author Topic: FPS + Canon 17TSE: Pictures only possible with that combi  (Read 3053 times)
chrismuc
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« on: June 09, 2013, 09:19:15 AM »
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I had some fun this weekend using the FPS with the wide angle Canon TSE lenses, especially the 17 TSE. This combination of camera and lens and the full frame IQ180 back plus eventually some shift movement allows angles of view previously considered to be impossible.
In the first pic to share, I used the camera horizontally and stitched one upwards shifted image with one non-shifted one. The final pic is slightly cropped to cut the the corner vignetting and is about 8000 pixel wide.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 09:21:18 AM by chrismuc » Logged
chrismuc
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« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2013, 09:27:39 AM »
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In the second pic the building was so near and high plus the crane, so I had to use the camera vertically plus shift and add some camera tilt to get all on the image. The tilt distortion was corrected in PS. The result might not be everyone's taste ... but it's at least extreme :-)
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chrismuc
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« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2013, 09:32:15 AM »
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Finally an exaggerated version of the previous motive :-)
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KevinGSaunders
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« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2013, 01:21:52 PM »
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Fascinating. Are there any of these in the US?
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haefnerphoto
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« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2013, 06:14:33 AM »
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What's a FPS?
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Paul2660
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« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2013, 06:28:21 AM »
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Alpa, Focal Plane Shutter camera.

http://www.alpa.ch/en/products.html

Around 8.5K for the camera.  U.S. 

Paul Caldwell
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Paul Caldwell
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Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2013, 06:48:42 AM »
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And the Hartblei - HCam-B1 Chris..............  Smiley

http://hartblei.de/en/hartbleicam1.htm

Greetings from Germany
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 06:50:45 AM by Stefan.Steib » Logged

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FMueller
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« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2013, 08:57:59 AM »
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Alpa, Focal Plane Shutter camera.

http://www.alpa.ch/en/products.html

Around 8.5K for the camera.  U.S. 

Paul Caldwell

If 8.5 k USD were it, I'd actually be able to consider it. You need to get all your lenses remounted, even if already in an ALPA mount. Nothing wider than 32mm. If you'd like rise/fall and shift, you need to add in an ALPA tech cam body (4-5k USD?)You would like to use that canon 17mm TS/E? That'll be another $1800 for an adapter (fortunately only 1 is needed for all your canon lenses...), same deal for the hasselblad adapter.

It's beautiful and desirable and someday when the copals are all dying, we will all use focal plane shutters or some other flavor of electronic shutters, hopefully the economies of greater production will find its way to the price sheet....
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Paul2660
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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2013, 09:40:26 AM »
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Yes, I realize there is more to it than 8.5 for the unit.  But I drew the line at 8.5 for the unit, never looked any further.  I will live with Copals and the rm3di for now. 

As an outdoor only shooter, it also looks to have a bit too many exposed contacts for water or moisture. 

As a solution I love it, since you can use non Rodenstock or Schneider glass, as the OP used the Canon 17mm TS-E. 

I am still curious how well the 17mm did on the 180 in the corners.   As far as I know the only solution that would come close would be the 23mm Rodenstock which should come close to the 17mm perspective (35mm lens).  But that solution is also very expensive and the lens is only a 70mm image circle and allows about 5mm of total shift before you hit the "disc" which gives a very hard vignette to the frame. 

I noticed that the OP has the 17mm shifted to the max which should be about 12mm or so. 

As far as shifting with the FPS, does it allow for camera body shift like a tech cam or only shifting with a lens like the 17mm TS-E?

Paul Caldwell
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Paul Caldwell
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2013, 09:48:36 AM »
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Hi,

The Hartblei is on my shopping list the Alpa is not. Why? Because the Hartblei is so flexible and has a focusing slider.

Once we have live view, everything will be simpler.

Best regards
Erik


And the Hartblei - HCam-B1 Chris..............  Smiley

http://hartblei.de/en/hartbleicam1.htm

Greetings from Germany
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KLaban
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« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2013, 10:34:29 AM »
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Once we have live view, everything will be simpler.

Amen.
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Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2013, 10:52:24 AM »
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Paul

the 17mm TS-E on HCam and Alpa FPS reach 126,3 degrees of diagonal image angle with an IQ280/Credo80. The 24mm TS-E is 108,9 degrees
The Rodenstock 23mm on an IQ280 is 111,2 degrees.

With our Lens modifications you even get some movements with the 17mm and about 4-5mm on the 24mm.

There is no alternative to this 17mm/MF combo. Not from Rodenstock (even though they also use Retrofocus for the 23mm) and definitely not from Schneider
whose 24mm is unusable over 40Mpix because of heaviest color cast.

Regards
Stefan
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2013, 11:47:46 AM »
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Hi,

If you check the Alpa FPS there is an optical viewfinder, and you need a laser rangefinder for focusing, or you replace the MFDB with ground glass as I can see. The Hartblei has an electrically driven sliding back to switch between the MFDB with and the ground glass.

With live view you could use the MFDB as a viewfinder. As far as I understand the latest generation of MFDBs have some kind of live view, how useful, I don't know.

I recently acquired a P45+, which I plan to use on Hasselblad V series camera. Later I may upgrade to the HCam as it can take my Hasselblad lenses but also use lenses for Canon (17 and 24 TS lenses being very interesting). One observation may also be that the V series Hasselblad has a wide set of lenses and at least those I have tested being pretty good there is a lack of really wide wide angles, becaus of the crop factor. A 645 back has a crop factor on a full frame 6x6 camera and the P45+ also has a crop factor vs. the full 645 format. So the HCam is on my shopping list.

Best regards
Erik

Amen.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2013, 12:26:15 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

Paul2660
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« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2013, 12:30:47 PM »
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Paul

the 17mm TS-E on HCam and Alpa FPS reach 126,3 degrees of diagonal image angle with an IQ280/Credo80. The 24mm TS-E is 108,9 degrees
The Rodenstock 23mm on an IQ280 is 111,2 degrees.

With our Lens modifications you even get some movements with the 17mm and about 4-5mm on the 24mm.

There is no alternative to this 17mm/MF combo. Not from Rodenstock (even though they also use Retrofocus for the 23mm) and definitely not from Schneider
whose 24mm is unusable over 40Mpix because of heaviest color cast.

Regards
Stefan

Stefan

Thank you for the info.  I am a bit confused however.  In the OP picture, he is apparently shifting the 17mm in front of the FPS, ie. using the shift of the lens, not the body.  What lens modifications are there? 

Does the Hartblei allow for camera body shift along with the shifting of the TS-E or just utilize the shift of the 17mm? 

What is the cost of the Hartblei, U.S.? 

Thanks
Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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Stefan.Steib
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« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2013, 01:11:29 PM »
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Paul

the HCam is 6295,-€ complete with slider, EOS Lens mount, all cabling and the back mount of your choice.
Further a 4x Loupe finder, a wall power device and a Hasselblad Arcbody/SWC compatible Viewfinderadapter with a matte screen with split image focusing.
So if you have a back and a Canon lens you can shoot right out of the box. And you can use older backs without live view without any back shuffle.
Youīll find our pricelist here  http://www.hcam.de/en/Pricelist_03_2013.pdf

About the shift on the camera - this is technically not possible as there is the limitation of the shutter size.
The Hcam- and the FPS use lens shift, whereas HCam has develloped a special clamp for the Canon TS-E 17 and 24mm (and for our Hartblei lenses) to keep the lens standing still
and let the camera move instead see here  http://hartblei.de/photos/cam4er2.gif  or here   http://hartblei.de/en/canon-tse-collar.htm

about the lens mods we do you can find this here   https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=173214839457627&set=pb.122001131245665.-2207520000.1370887828.&type=3&theater
for the stitching technology chris used I will write an extra reply.

Regards
Stefan
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Ken R
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« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2013, 01:29:50 PM »
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If the HCAM or the FPS were considerably cheaper than buying a 23mm HR I would consider one. But as it is it's roughly about the same as the Rodenstock lens (which is awesome I hear)
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Paul2660
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« Reply #16 on: June 10, 2013, 02:03:43 PM »
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Both the 23mm and 28mm rodenstock's are awesome, but they are very limited by their 70mm image circle.  This comes into play worse on a 1:1 Phase Back, like the 65+, or IQ160, 180.  You can get max about 5mm of horizontal shift.  At 3mm you will hit the  penumbra (inner edge of the image circle) this creates a lighter white curving band around the corners.  Past 5mm and you hit a some form of a blocking disc placed in the lens by Rodenstock.  This disc creates a hard black vignette and makes this portion of image the non-usable.   You can get just a bit more in rise and fall maybe 6 to 7mm.  Depending on the image, the penumbra may or may not effect your shot.  If it's blue sky it will, where as trees, rocks, water etc. it won't be noticeable. 

The other issue of these lenses is filters.  I personally feel that the physical CF is needed as the vignetting at the corners is pretty harsh.  The CF is 72mm to 95mm outer.  You can get away with about 1 95mm filter before you cause a edge vignetting.  In my work I tend to use both a ND and CL-PL, which makes the 28mm Rodenstock tricky.  I have moved to using large sheet filters for this lens.  Optically it's truly an amazing lens as is the 23mm, but it's a bit more tricky to work with.  BTW, if you don't use the physical CF, you have a outer filter diameter of 72mm and you can still only get one filter on before you start to see vignetting. 

This is why the 32mm Rodenstock is IMO the better lens.  90mm IC, shifting to 16mm and it's possible to use it without the physical CF.  The 32mm is hampered by cost, and it's a bit heavy and can have issues with the Copal shutter where the lens gets out of adjustment.

I am also curious how well the 17mm Canon is holding up on a full 12mm shift on the IQ180.  I have the newer Canon 24 TS-E and it's a great lens but tends to show a bit of softness towards the corners on full shift and will also show considerable light fall off on a full shift, enough that I will often times take a LCC frame with it.

Paul Caldwell




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Paul Caldwell
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« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2013, 02:20:20 PM »
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Hi Paul

The image circle of the 17 TS-E is probably around 80mm or more -Itīs hard to tell as even with the mods we do you do not see
the real full image circle but barrel vignetting first. But this also has advantages (explained later)
here is a link to a full res 80 Mpix Leaf Aptus II 12R on an HCam with an unmodified Canon TS-E 17mm

http://www.hartblei.de/downloads/Leaf80Mpix_Canon17mmTSE.jpg

You have to know that the image plane is very spheric, but once you take this into account and you stop down to f11,5 (as this sample was) you get amazing results.
The TS-E 24mm V2 is easier, the astigmatism is not as strong as the 17mm but also here- 11,5 or even 16 is the best compromise. A slight diffraction loss on the apertures can easily be compensated by pulling contrast a bit up and sharpening a bit more - as a deal you get edge to edge quality with NO LCC and NO CENTERFILTER needed !
Further- as the Canonīs are about a 1 stop or depending how you count the Centerfilters 2-3 stops brighter - focusing is essentially easier than with the classic Rodies or Schneiders at 5,6 or darker.
And last but not least, because of the lacking color cast the channels (especially Blue!) do have significantly less noise on the borders which normally are pushed heavily to match visually with the centers by LCC.

Lets put it straight: real Wideangles(flange focallly spoken)  on todays highres backs donīt work. At least not well enough to certifiy the price tag.

Regards
Stefan
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2013, 12:14:29 AM »
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Hi,

Here is a video by Brian Hirschfield describing the HCam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=__AQefmaeaQ

Select HD720 option for best quality.

My vision is to use this with a Canon wideangle 24TS and Hasselblad lenses from 50-150.

Best regards
Erik
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« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2013, 11:31:50 PM »
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This Canon lens defies religion!
Eduardo

Hi Paul

The image circle of the 17 TS-E is probably around 80mm or more -Itīs hard to tell as even with the mods we do you do not see
the real full image circle but barrel vignetting first. But this also has advantages (explained later)
here is a link to a full res 80 Mpix Leaf Aptus II 12R on an HCam with an unmodified Canon TS-E 17mm

http://www.hartblei.de/downloads/Leaf80Mpix_Canon17mmTSE.jpg

You have to know that the image plane is very spheric, but once you take this into account and you stop down to f11,5 (as this sample was) you get amazing results.
The TS-E 24mm V2 is easier, the astigmatism is not as strong as the 17mm but also here- 11,5 or even 16 is the best compromise. A slight diffraction loss on the apertures can easily be compensated by pulling contrast a bit up and sharpening a bit more - as a deal you get edge to edge quality with NO LCC and NO CENTERFILTER needed !
Further- as the Canonīs are about a 1 stop or depending how you count the Centerfilters 2-3 stops brighter - focusing is essentially easier than with the classic Rodies or Schneiders at 5,6 or darker.
And last but not least, because of the lacking color cast the channels (especially Blue!) do have significantly less noise on the borders which normally are pushed heavily to match visually with the centers by LCC.

Lets put it straight: real Wideangles(flange focallly spoken)  on todays highres backs donīt work. At least not well enough to certifiy the price tag.

Regards
Stefan
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