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Author Topic: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?  (Read 61742 times)
nemo295
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« Reply #240 on: July 16, 2013, 04:54:15 PM »
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then what is has to do with whether he likes it there or not ? well, that is a price he pays...

well, I find it ironic too... for a different reason though  Wink ... http://www.inliberty.ru/blog/karmodi/3818/ - use translate.google.com (the author is certainly not pro Putin)


I characterize China as the country that US is afraid of  Grin

That only shows how little you understand about my country or its relationship with China.
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #241 on: July 16, 2013, 05:03:00 PM »
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Well, perhaps you should file send a letter of protest to Amnesty International, which has declared them "prisoners of conscience".

why ? I do not put Snowden and pussy riot act on the same level, sorry.

Obviously, you know much more about their fate than they do.

certainly more than you do, because see I can read opinions from both sides in Russia, in Russian, in original... you can't... so you digest what was lost in translation  Wink

Oh, and by the way, Nadezhda Tolokonnikova and Maria Alyokhina are still in prison for their protest. But being the Russian expert you are, you knew that, right?

yes, there are... serving the sentence... like Capone who was nailed for taxes, they were nailed for the proper technicalities (they had to think first and stage the performance outside)... that how it works  Cheesy
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #242 on: July 16, 2013, 05:06:54 PM »
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That only shows how little you understand about my country or its relationship with China.
dear, as I noted I have US citizenship, so it is as my country as yours and unlike you (with Russia, Russian language) I do not need translation to understand English...  Cheesy
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nemo295
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« Reply #243 on: July 16, 2013, 05:10:27 PM »
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why ? I do not put Snowden and pussy riot act on the same level, sorry.

When the facts become inconvenient, so much for the facts. How very Stalinist of you.

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certainly more than you do, because see I can read opinions from both sides in Russia, in Russian, in original... you can't... so you digest what was lost in translation  Wink
So, I take it you disagree with Amnesty International?
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yes, there are... serving the sentence... like Capone who was nailed for taxes, they were nailed for the proper technicalities (they had to think first and stage the performance outside)... that how it works  Cheesy

So much for the right to protest injustice in Russia. Comparing Pussy Riot to a notorious gangster and murderer is pretty serious. How many people did Pussy Riot murder?
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nemo295
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« Reply #244 on: July 16, 2013, 05:11:19 PM »
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dear, as I noted I have US citizenship, so it is as my country as yours and unlike you (with Russia, Russian language) I do not need translation to understand English...  Cheesy

I don't question your ability to understand English. But you do need to check your facts.
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #245 on: July 16, 2013, 05:26:27 PM »
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When the facts become inconvenient, so much for the facts. How very Stalinist of you.

which specific fact I dispute ? pussy riot staged a performance in a certain place and that (where it happened) was used as a technicality to convict some of them in a court of law and sentence some to prison time... I approve what Snowden did, I do not approve pussy riot staging an act in church (outside a lot of people do the same putin-mocking on a regular basis and walk free, that is unless they start the fights with police)... I am indifferent to mocking a thief (be that thief mr Putin or mr Khodorkovsky - they are both thiefs, just only one gang can be in power at a time - it happened that Khodorkovsky joined the wrong one), I do approve prosecuting similar acts commited in church (or mosque or  synagogue or etc).

So, I take it you disagree with Amnesty International?

no, why shall I ? as I noted before - pussy riot got nailed on technicality... next time they will think where to express their opinions.

So much for the right to protest injustice in Russia.

you can protest whatever you want but you need to understand that there are certain places not suitable for certain protests... may I come with a gun in a school to stage a pro gun act ? may I ?

Comparing Pussy Riot to a notorious gangster and murderer is pretty serious. How many people did Pussy Riot murder?

was Capone convicted of murder  Grin ?
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #246 on: July 16, 2013, 05:28:46 PM »
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I don't question your ability to understand English. But you do need to check your facts.
I am with you on facts... except that I can check more than you.
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nemo295
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« Reply #247 on: July 16, 2013, 05:49:32 PM »
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was Capone convicted of murder  Grin ?

The point is that Capone was put in prison where murderers like him belong. By comparing Pussy Riot to Al Capone you apparently think they are criminals too.
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nemo295
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« Reply #248 on: July 16, 2013, 05:52:34 PM »
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you can protest whatever you want but you need to understand that there are certain places not suitable for certain protests... may I come with a gun in a school to stage a pro gun act ? may I ?

By your own admission, the Russian government used the "technicality" of playing in a church to convict Pussy Riot. The real reason was the fact of the protest itself that they sought to crush, just as the Capone's conviction for tax evasion was an excuse to put away a murderer. Your point doesn't make a lot of sense. The reality is if you protest in Russia, the government will invent some pretext to silence you, just as they've silenced so many critics.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 06:03:07 PM by Doug Frost » Logged
Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #249 on: July 16, 2013, 06:25:09 PM »
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I see that "your momma is so totalitarian..." style of debate is going to get us real far Grin
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Slobodan

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nemo295
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« Reply #250 on: July 16, 2013, 06:29:40 PM »
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I see that "your momma is so totalitarian..." style of debate is going to get us real far Grin

Maybe we should switch to first cousins.
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dreed
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« Reply #251 on: July 16, 2013, 08:49:57 PM »
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Oh, and the relevance of the 2000 vote tally in Florida is?

You were highlighting democracy so I thought I'd throw in some of the better examples of what's happening to democracy in the USA..

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And what do you suppose the fate of a journalist who broke such a story in Russia or China would be?

Probably similar to what the US Government will do to Snowden if he returns to the USA...

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You really do have an attention span problem. Again, your response is completely off-topic.

Hey, you were the one that wanted to talk about democracy and free speech...

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Snowden's actions went far beyond free speech. He willfully broke the secrecy oath he signed and tried to damage the U.S.

If he also swore an oath to protect the constitution against all foes, both domestic and foreign, which do you suppose wins?
The one for secrecy or the one to protect the constitution?

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Sure. Right. That's why the first thing he does is run to that bastion of freedom and tolerance called China and then Russia.

Don't you think that is ironic that a whistleblower is afraid of justice in the country that makes out to be the foremost bastion of democracy, justice, freedom of speech, etc?

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Give me a break. The NSA looking at your international phone records is not an attack on anyone's "rights and freedoms". Assuming, for the moment, that you're even an American, tell us what rights and freedoms have been taken away from you?

It is against the 4th amendment to the constitution:
Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution

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What happens if you get a brain?

Thank you for your kind words.

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You wouldn't have to ask that question if you had even a cursory understanding of what Prism, or the NSA, is here to do.

Now there's a truly idiotic question for you.

I assumed wrong. You're not an American. And now that you've inadvertently tipped your hand, it's clear that you have no vested interest in my country and therefore no moral authority in this discussion.

But to continue our previous thread...you are completely, thoroughly clueless. As a binary thinker, I wouldn't expect you to understand the value of preventing even one attack. Your insistence of an all or nothing justification for a program like Prism betrays an adolescent and self-centered perspective. If Prism prevented even one attack it would be well worth it. But as a matter of fact, through the efforts of the U.S. intelligence services, hundreds of attacks have already been thwarted. But I would gladly trade all the metadata on the planet to save just one life.

Well without any solid evidence to evaluate your claims with, what you're saying is worthless. If you want to continue to make accusations and throw out opinions, fine, but they're really not very interesting unless they're substantiated with external evidence being presented alongside. Please feel free to repeat the above when you've got some sources that you can cite.

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If there is, you've made no case for it whatsoever. You've offered no evidence, only the kind of moronic platitudes that one finds on paranoia factories like 4chan.

Thank you for your kind words.

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And how do you plan to prove that PRISM would have been the only thing that could have saved their lives?
Only thing? You haven't been paying attention.

You're the one complaining that Snowden has compromised PRISM and thus the ability of the USA to find potential terrorists. So I'm putting it to you, how do you prove that PRISM is the vital link in the chain and not something else?

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Again, you display a total ignorance of what Prism does. If you don't have even the most basic facts there's no point of discussing the matter with you further. Come back when you've done your homework, kid.

Well to be honest, I suspect that nearly everyone here is ignorant when it comes to PRISM as we're not allowed to know what it is in detail (thanks NSA.) So if you do then obviously you're on the inside (which would explain a lot actually) and thus part of the problem.

It is interesting the way in which you've tried to go all out and attack me rather than attack the topic. Usually this is taken as another indicator of the writer being someone that is out to distract attention away from the subject at hand and the only people that want to do that work for the government. People like that pop up in forums all over the Internet.

Attacking me and/or other posters with personal insults, etc, does not contribute to the discussion in any meaningful way. I would suggest that if you want to have a meaningful debate then keep it to things like journalists being murdered, people going to prison for speaking their mind, people being outcast from their countries, etc. That makes for a vastly more interesting discussion than having to read through "you're a !@*$!".
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mezzoduomo
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« Reply #252 on: July 16, 2013, 09:28:21 PM »
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That only shows how little you understand about my country or its relationship with China.

Hey, Doug E Fresh: Have you ever been wrong about anything...ever....in your entire life?
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dreed
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« Reply #253 on: July 16, 2013, 10:11:31 PM »
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I see that "your momma is so totalitarian..." style of debate is going to get us real far Grin

Slobodan, haven't you noticed that it is always those with a weak case to argue that resort to insults, name calling, etc?

People who have substance and merit to their argument don't need to bother making personal threats, etc Smiley
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nemo295
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« Reply #254 on: July 17, 2013, 12:14:32 AM »
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You were highlighting democracy so I thought I'd throw in some of the better examples of what's happening to democracy in the USA..
You have no idea what's happening in the U.S., as your continued display of ignorance demonstrates.

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Probably similar to what the US Government will do to Snowden if he returns to the USA...
I have little doubt that Snowden will eventually be called to account for his crime. Some would have him charged with treason, which carries the death penalty. I don't happen to think he did what he did in concert with a foreign enemy. So perhaps 20 years behind bars would be sufficient. No matter what, we'll get him. It's only a matter of time.

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Hey, you were the one that wanted to talk about democracy and free speech...
No in fact you were the one who brought those up.

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If he also swore an oath to protect the constitution against all foes, both domestic and foreign, which do you suppose wins?
The one for secrecy or the one to protect the constitution?

In your country I suppose you get to pick which of the oaths you've made should be taken seriously.

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Don't you think that is ironic that a whistleblower is afraid of justice in the country that makes out to be the foremost bastion of democracy, justice, freedom of speech, etc?

Irony has nothing to do with it. He's already admitted committing a felony. He ran away because he's far too much of a coward to accept the consequences of his own actions.

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It is against the 4th amendment to the constitution:
Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution
And since when is your phone bill privileged information? Or perhaps it is in your country, where ever that is.

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Thank you for your kind words.

If the shoe fits...

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Well without any solid evidence to evaluate your claims with, what you're saying is worthless. If you want to continue to make accusations and throw out opinions, fine, but they're really not very interesting unless they're substantiated with external evidence being presented alongside. Please feel free to repeat the above when you've got some sources that you can cite.

I'm not the one who's required to provide evidence since I'm not the one making accusations about my government. But you continue to accuse with nothing to back it up.

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Thank you for your kind words.

The shoe still fits.

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You're the one complaining that Snowden has compromised PRISM and thus the ability of the USA to find potential terrorists. So I'm putting it to you, how do you prove that PRISM is the vital link in the chain and not something else?
Unlike you, I'm not willing to forgive putting American lives in danger because some spineless creep has blown the cover on a secret NSA program. It was important enough for Congress to authorize it. It was important enough for the NSA to require Snowden to sign an oath to protect its secrecy.

I think Putin said it best:

"If he (Snowden) wants to go somewhere and there are those who would take him, he is welcome to do that," Putin said. "If he wants to stay here, there is one condition: he must stop his activities aimed at inflicting damage to our American partners, no matter how strange it may sound on my lips."

If even an autocrat like Putin thinks that Snowden is out to hurt America I think it's safe to say that hurting America is Snowden's real mission.

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Well to be honest, I suspect that nearly everyone here is ignorant when it comes to PRISM as we're not allowed to know what it is in detail (thanks NSA.) So if you do then obviously you're on the inside (which would explain a lot actually) and thus part of the problem.

There is none so blind as he who will not see the truth (that means you). Your premise from the beginning has been: if it's the NSA it must be evil. If it's the American government it must be evil. Your prejudices and paranoia have already tried and convicted my country in absentia.

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It is interesting the way in which you've tried to go all out and attack me rather than attack the topic. Usually this is taken as another indicator of the writer being someone that is out to distract attention away from the subject at hand and the only people that want to do that work for the government. People like that pop up in forums all over the Internet.

You're talking about yourself. You're the one who's tried to insert irrelevant subjects in an attempt to distract from the fact that your critique of Prism is spurious. You bring up the Florida vote count in 2000. You bring up voter ID laws. You cite articles as evidence that contain no evidence. You're all over the place.

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Attacking me and/or other posters with personal insults, etc, does not contribute to the discussion in any meaningful way. I would suggest that if you want to have a meaningful debate then keep it to things like journalists being murdered, people going to prison for speaking their mind, people being outcast from their countries, etc. That makes for a vastly more interesting discussion than having to read through "you're a !@*$!".

That's rich coming from you--the one who offers no proof of anything. The one who sanctimoniously suggests that anyone who disagrees with you ought to go live in China. The one who would allow terrorists to attack my country just so you can keep the information contained in your phone bill secret. Yes, perhaps I do get a little hot under the collar when confronted by someone with as little regard for human life as yourself, but there it is.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 12:23:31 AM by Doug Frost » Logged
nemo295
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« Reply #255 on: July 17, 2013, 12:31:54 AM »
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Hey, Doug E Fresh: Have you ever been wrong about anything...ever....in your entire life?

Eager to get another thread shut down are you?
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dreed
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« Reply #256 on: July 17, 2013, 02:24:34 AM »
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No in fact you were the one who brought those up.

No, it was you, see here:
msg 196
... where you mention Nicaragua, etc.

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If he also swore an oath to protect the constitution against all foes, both domestic and foreign, which do you suppose wins?
The one for secrecy or the one to protect the constitution?
In your country I suppose you get to pick which of the oaths you've made should be taken seriously.

Please answer my question(s).

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And since when is your phone bill privileged information? Or perhaps it is in your country, where ever that is.


Your car location is just metadata, why don't you tell the NSA where you are every time you park your car (at the start and end of every journey), just in case it happens to coincide with known locations where people suspected of terrorism or aiding and abetting them are?

That it is phone bill related is beside the point.

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I'm not the one who's required to provide evidence since I'm not the one making accusations about my government. But you continue to accuse with nothing to back it up.

Unlike you, I'm not willing to forgive putting American lives in danger because some spineless creep has blown the cover on a secret NSA program. It was important enough for Congress to authorize it. It was important enough for the NSA to require Snowden to sign an oath to protect its secrecy.

It is people like you who will end up killing the USA and everything that it stands for.

But maybe it doesn't matter. Every time freedoms and privacy is lost just a little bit, that is a victory for the terrorists because it means another part of what the USA stood for has died. In that sense the damage to the USA from 9/11 is far more extensive than whatever number of people died or what the economic damage is/was: it has killed various freedoms and privacy here in the USA and people like you don't care.

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I think Putin said it best:

"If he (Snowden) wants to go somewhere and there are those who would take him, he is welcome to do that," Putin said. "If he wants to stay here, there is one condition: he must stop his activities aimed at inflicting damage to our American partners, no matter how strange it may sound on my lips."

If even an autocrat like Putin thinks that Snowden is out to hurt America I think it's safe to say that hurting America is Snowden's real mission.

That's one way to look at it. Another is that Putin values building the relationship between Russia and the USA over what Snowden has to say. There's nothing wrong with that as Putin is president and thus entitled to that position. Putin is playing a completely different game than is Snowden and I expect that Russia will be looking for quid-pro-quo in the future from the USA too. I have no qualms with that any of that.

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You're talking about yourself. You're the one who's tried to insert irrelevant subjects in an attempt to distract from the fact that your critique of Prism is spurious. You bring up the Florida vote count in 2000. You bring up voter ID laws. You cite articles as evidence that contain no evidence. You're all over the place.

Well you decided to hold up the USA as the paragon of democracy and freedom and drew into question other countries. I just held up the mirror for you so that you could see what is happening in the USA and that it is no longer the model country that it used to be.

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That's rich coming from you--the one who offers no proof of anything.

No, you just don't want to accept the evidence that has been presented.
Clapper testified to Congress about the NSA and then said he misled Congress. I provided links to web articles about this but you dismissed them. Maybe I should provide you with this link:

Students put NSA recruiters in the hot seat

I've yet to see you provide a single link to back up anything you've claimed or said.

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The one who sanctimoniously suggests that anyone who disagrees with you ought to go live in China. The one who would allow terrorists to attack my country just so you can keep the information contained in your phone bill secret. Yes, perhaps I do get a little hot under the collar when confronted by someone with as little regard for human life as yourself, but there it is.

People die, every day. If the US government spent as much money on making its roads safe as it has in Iraq/Afghanistan then thousands more lives would be saved than from those invasions.
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Rob C
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« Reply #257 on: July 17, 2013, 03:59:42 AM »
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The inevitable results of indoctrination, class-hatred, social inferiority complexes and personal identity doubts writ large.

How sad that nothing changes within the human soul. Maybe we should have remained in the sea.

Rob C
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mezzoduomo
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« Reply #258 on: July 17, 2013, 07:42:45 AM »
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Eager to get another thread shut down are you?

No, not eager to get this precious thread shut down. The world needs this thread and its treasure trove of 'insightful analysis'.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #259 on: July 17, 2013, 08:53:46 AM »
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Just a few takeaways summarizing the discussion so far:

- There is valid concern that weakening Prism or getting rid of it may result in terrorist acts not being stopped with the tragic consequence of civil casualties,
- This is definitely not a US vs the rest of the world kind of debate. We have clear evidence that some key European countries including France and Germany were aligned with the NSA as far as Prism is concerned,
- Speaking about the US, there is beyond reasonable doubt that the official instances in charge of monitoring the actual operations of Prism had not been fully disclosed on the exact scope of Prism. This is the key issue since it raises the question of democratic control... who is running the show if citizens elected representatives are not?

My personal view is that we need some kind of firewall, but that citizens control can never be by-passed if we want to continue living in democracies. The day we do not live in a true democracy any longer, the terrorists have won. I feel we have crossed the line already.

Cheers,
Bernard
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