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Author Topic: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?  (Read 88644 times)
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« Reply #380 on: July 29, 2013, 04:13:38 PM »
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Over the past few days resistance to a posting temptation has been overcome.  I'd like to see your prodigious analytical prowess applied to a comparison of the NSA/Snowden data gathering disclosures, to the that of SAP-AG.  Here is a company that has networked, quite literally, more than 50% of the enterprise of the world and gathers telecommunications billing, inventory, acquisition, financial data, right down to ariable garden acreage to headquarters, surprisingly, or perhaps unsuprisingly, in Israel.  Check it out.  SAP-AG makes the NSA look trivial.


Oracle is in the same business and almost twice the size of SAP-AG. If SAP-AG makes the NSA look trivial, then Oracle makes them look like ants. Traditional notions of privacy, as applied to digital communications, are meaningless in the 21st century.
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #381 on: July 29, 2013, 04:14:46 PM »
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but it's well known that every intelligence agency in the free world was convinced Saddam had WMD.
only if you define every intelligence agency in the free world as a few people who were not willing to stand up vs some dumb neocons, then yes.
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« Reply #382 on: July 29, 2013, 04:17:25 PM »
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So much for the quality of your intelligence gathering. If only your could check Saddam's phone bill! Wink

Unfortunately this is the kind of thing that requires "humint," in other words, people on the spot. Communications traffic analysis won't cut it. Has it occurred to you that if Saddam's generals thought he had WMD, spies on the spot might think so too?
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« Reply #383 on: July 29, 2013, 04:23:05 PM »
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only if you define every intelligence agency in the free world as a few people who were not willing to stand up vs some dumb neocons, then yes.

? Haven't the foggiest what this means, Vlad.
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« Reply #384 on: July 29, 2013, 04:58:54 PM »
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"Research Headquarters and Lab in Israel, Vlad.

Thanks,

Ken Richmond
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #385 on: July 29, 2013, 05:09:30 PM »
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... A friend of mine once disputed being billed for an international phone call. She said she never made the call, so the phone company customer service representative pushed a button and played a recording of her phone call back to her, on the spot.

Now suddenly, when these corporations hand over a list of your phone calls to the NSA the sky is falling? I don't think so.

Two two wrongs do not make one right.

Despite a strong distaste for the tone and content of your posts so far, I'd be willing to continue debating this topic with you if you could supply a shred of evidence (other than hearsay) about recording of international (or any other) calls by telephone companies. I mean, even NSA does not go that far to admit actually recording calls. I can only imagine the technical difficulties (outside the NSA budget) to record gazillion of simultaneous phone calls as a routine matter. Not to mention the legality of call recording without one's consent.
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« Reply #386 on: July 29, 2013, 05:17:35 PM »
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Two two wrongs do not make one right.

Despite a strong distaste for the tone and content of your posts so far, I'd be willing to continue debating this topic with you if you could supply a shred of evidence (other than hearsay) about recording of international (or any other) calls by telephone companies. I mean, even NSA does not go that far to admit actually recording calls. I can only imagine the technical difficulties (outside the NSA budget) to record gazillion of simultaneous phone calls as a routine matter. Not to mention the legality of call recording without one's consent.

If we're going to insist on eliminating anecdotal evidence, beliefs and biases from this forum we might as well erase it entirely.

But do you honestly believe that your phone company respects your privacy?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 05:20:30 PM by Popnfresh » Logged
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« Reply #387 on: July 29, 2013, 05:26:31 PM »
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Two two wrongs do not make one right.

Despite a strong distaste for the tone and content of your posts so far, I'd be willing to continue debating this topic with you if you could supply a shred of evidence (other than hearsay) about recording of international (or any other) calls by telephone companies. I mean, even NSA does not go that far to admit actually recording calls. I can only imagine the technical difficulties (outside the NSA budget) to record gazillion of simultaneous phone calls as a routine matter. Not to mention the legality of call recording without one's consent.

Exactly, Slobodan. The technical difficulties, including the amount of storage required, would be absurd. Furthermore, unless you have enough people (probably millions) to listen to all those phone calls -- people who won't fall asleep while listening to them -- recording them doesn't make sense. But traffic analysis does make sense. Once traffic analysis tells you somebody's in contact with a jihadist, then it's time to listen in and record. It's the same thing the cops do when they go to court and get permission for a wiretap. I could argue about the constitutionality of the FISA court requirement when what we're dealing with is war -- defense instead of law-enforcement. FISA's clearly not constitutional. But beyond that I keep reading about the Supreme Court allowing NSA "wiretapping" when what's going on isn't wiretapping at all. It's simply traffic analysis.
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mezzoduomo
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« Reply #388 on: July 29, 2013, 05:26:46 PM »
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If we're going to insist on eliminating anecdotal evidence, beliefs and biases from this forum we might as well erase it entirely.

+ 1,000,000
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #389 on: July 29, 2013, 05:50:05 PM »
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...  comparison of the NSA/Snowden data gathering disclosures, to the that of SAP-AG.  Here is a company that has networked, quite literally, more than 50% of the enterprise of the world and gathers telecommunications billing, inventory, acquisition, financial data, right down to ariable garden acreage to headquarters, surprisingly, or perhaps unsuprisingly, in Israel.  Check it out.  SAP-AG makes the NSA look trivial...

As I mentioned previously in this thread, I am not a fan of corporate invasion of privacy either:

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I personally object to Google-style metadata collecting as well, but the worst that can happen is being bombarded by their ads. Or another example how much metadata can reveal: how Target knew a teenager is pregnant before her dad did. But the worst that can happen if the government starts abusing it is frightening.

In case of Google at al, I can at least adjust my browser as not to send my browsing habits, history, search terms, etc. (within reason). In case of corporations, like SAP, the potential for abuse does exist, but is mostly relevant for other corporations.

The ability of governments (including American) to abuse its power is proven and its extent terrifying, even if potentially. They (including American) are known to medically experiment on their own citizens, let alone foreign, including child abduction (Australian, plus Newt Gingrich proposal) and forced sterilization. They are known (including American) to stage "terrorist" attack on their own soil, or at least consider it as an option, as a pretext to shift the public opinion. And, no, I am not talking about 9/11. Check Operation Northwoods, for instance.
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« Reply #390 on: July 29, 2013, 05:52:36 PM »
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If we're going to insist on eliminating anecdotal evidence, beliefs and biases from this forum we might as well erase it entirely.

I am glad that you (and your buddy mezzo) finally admitted that your participation here amounts to (unconfirmed) "anecdotal evidence, beliefs and biases" Wink
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« Reply #391 on: July 29, 2013, 06:11:56 PM »
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Exactly, Slobodan. The technical difficulties, including the amount of storage required, would be absurd.

Actually no. In fact, it already exists and has for some time. Built by phone companies and shared with the U.S. Government when requested.

And when it opens later this year, the NSA's Utah Data Center, with its 3 - 12 EXABYTE storage capacity will be able store, not only the recordings of every phone call on the planet for many years to come, but all internet activity as well.

http://www.businessinsider.com/greenwald-are-all-telephone-calls-recorded-and-accessible-to-the-us-government-2013-5

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center



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mezzoduomo
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« Reply #392 on: July 29, 2013, 06:16:46 PM »
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I am glad that you (and your buddy mezzo) finally admitted that your participation here amounts to (unconfirmed) "anecdotal evidence, beliefs and biases" Wink

Please don't assign anyone as my 'buddy'. You are both hilarious and presumptuous, Slobo....
And, personally, I would characterize my participation here as taunting, bemused, condescending, smug, and dismissive, but not "anecdotal evidence, beliefs and biases".
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Ken Richmond
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« Reply #393 on: July 29, 2013, 06:23:47 PM »
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Slobodan,

The accumulation of individual data which people voluntarily disclose is of little concern to me, but the assemblage of detailed operational, financial, asset, marketing and planning data from 50% of the businesses world-wide provides SAP with a unique investment advantage that will, inexorably, corner wealth and threaten economic and social stability far more than the NSA's discovery of aberrant sexual preferences or the unhealthy psychological condition of face-book posters.  Inside information and the network of "partners" (by invitation only) that SAP is tied to has created a web unlike any other in the world.  That its "research" is conducted in a non-extraditing jurisdiction is not by accident, nor I fear, benevolently motivated.  

Snowdon is fodder for public consumption. Whether he's treasonous or reporting treason is nothing more than a distraction.  

Ken Richmond





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« Reply #394 on: July 29, 2013, 06:32:29 PM »
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Slobodan,

The accumulation of individual data which people voluntarily disclose is of little concern to me, but the assemblage of detailed operational, financial, asset, marketing and planning data from 50% of the businesses world-wide provides SAP with a unique investment advantage that will, inexorably, corner wealth and threaten economic and social stability far more than the NSA's discovery of aberrant sexual preferences or the unhealthy psychological condition of face-book posters.

Ken,

According to you, what % of the data managed by SAP software is stored in on premise servers located within the customer network vs those data stored in the cloud and managed by SAP themselves?

My bet would be that 90+% is stored on premise with that pourcentage reaching close to 100% for large clients.

If I am correct, you concern is mostly not valid.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 06:39:23 PM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

A few images online here!
Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #395 on: July 29, 2013, 06:54:17 PM »
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Please don't assign anyone as my 'buddy'...

Well, since you assigned one million +1s to his opinion, in red letters nonetheless, I thought there could be a budding bromance in the making Grin

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... And, personally, I would characterize my participation here as taunting, bemused, condescending, smug, and dismissive, but not "anecdotal evidence, beliefs and biases".

Glad we cleared that up! Wink

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« Reply #396 on: July 29, 2013, 07:00:32 PM »
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Well, since you assigned one million +1s to his opinion, in red letters nonetheless, I thought there could be a budding bromance in the making Grin

Glad we cleared that up! Wink


Not to mention the bouquet of roses that just arrived. Very sweet of him.
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« Reply #397 on: July 29, 2013, 07:01:38 PM »
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"...According to you, what % of the data managed by SAP software is stored in on premise servers located within the customer network vs those data stored in the cloud and managed by SAP themselves?

My bet would be that 90+% is stored on premise with that pourcentage reaching close to 100% for large clients.
If I am correct, you concern is mostly not valid."         "What do you mean when you say, " If I'm correct???",  Exactly what is the bet that you propose?   Your premise, being based upon where data is located is totally irrelevant.  SAP has access to all of the data I've described for each of its clients, and most recently, if you read SAP's disclosures, they are now drilling down to retail.  Moreover, in larger organizations, SAP is embedded - permanently.    

Let me suggest, respectfully, that you take some time to learn something about the subject posed before responding to a question that wasn't addressed specifically to you.  We can learn from each other here, or toss out meaningless offensive one liners.  You never know who you run into, and in this particular case, you are running into a wall.  I review SAP's proposals for my clients.

Ken Richmond





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mezzoduomo
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« Reply #398 on: July 29, 2013, 07:02:35 PM »
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Not to mention the bouquet of roses that just arrived. Very sweet of him.

S.W.A.K!!!   Grin
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #399 on: July 29, 2013, 07:05:37 PM »
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Not to mention the bouquet of roses that just arrived. Very sweet of him.

Red?
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