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Author Topic: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?  (Read 80056 times)
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #40 on: July 05, 2013, 07:58:21 PM »
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Because people will happliy trade their freedom for the illusion of "security."  I remember a comment by Pres. Bush that his job was to "keep Americans safe."  Um, no, the president's job is to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."   It's sickening the way this county is letting the rights that were paid for and preserved with the blood of generation after generation be stripped away with hardly a whimper.

The thing is that it is not just the US. That disease has spread to the rest of the Western world and Japan is about the same.

The thing is so bad that we don't even dare to speak about it. Raising concerns is seen as a lack of patriotism. Such discussions are stamped with the "political" label and stored away in a drawer. This is the most puzzling and efficient form of censorship, the one we impose on ourselves.

You have to admire the genius of the approach that has resulted in Western citizens opposing less to the monitoring of their lives than former USSR citizens used to. Wink

But this isn't a political debate, it isn't about left vs right, it is about what we call democracy. It isn't enough to call a country a democracy for one to be a democracy. The leaders of North Korea and Iran also call themselves democratic.

There are just too many lobbies obviously benefiting from paranoia for this to be completely innocent. If you believe for one second that those guys are not pushing their interests first, think again. This is the lesterland debate all over again. We have enough historical precedent to know that 9.11 was going to enable the present situation to happen. I am not even interested in what happened on 9.11, my point is that some people have been taken obvious advantage to push extremely far non democratic practises as a result of 9.11. And again, not just in the US.

What is so special about the spying of our lives that some guys decide they can proceed with the plan without even telling elected officials - and therefore the citizens who are supposed to be in control - about it?

Who is it that truly runs our countries?

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 09:11:20 PM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

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RSL
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« Reply #41 on: July 05, 2013, 08:10:00 PM »
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If all he did is point out the obvious, insignificant, statistical banalities, then what's the problem? He did not divulge any secrets in that case, did he? So, not really a spy. You can't have it both ways, Russ.

Read the rest of it, Slobodan. What I said is that the "media" are getting off on the communications analysis part of the revelations, which really is trivial considering that it's the kind of stuff every country has been doing since before the beginning of recorded history. But he's turned over a lot more that's far more damaging.
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ripgriffith
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« Reply #42 on: July 05, 2013, 08:30:38 PM »
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I hate to be so crass as to call a spade a spade, but this is right-wing conspiracy crap, nothing more.
Sorry, left out a word: right-wing conspiracy-THEORY crap.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #43 on: July 05, 2013, 08:38:26 PM »
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... But he's turned over a lot more that's far more damaging.

Like what?
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Alan Klein
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« Reply #44 on: July 05, 2013, 09:08:27 PM »
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what about Cuba and missiles ? may be think first about Thors in UK and Jupiters in Italy and Turkey where those were deployed way before xUSSR decided to answer to that in 1962 ?  get a mirror... US always act hysterically when others do what US does itself.

PS: and do not suggest a crap that UK, Italy or Turkey had a veto power on how to use those or were operated by non US personnel... dogs on a leash.

Vlad: No point getting upset.  I think the Cold War is over.
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Chris_Brown
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« Reply #45 on: July 05, 2013, 09:15:38 PM »
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. . . how do we look at Edward Snowden?

I'd have done the same thing, and take every chance I get to expose state & federal employees who break our laws.

"It has been thought a considerable advance towards establishing the principles of Freedom, to say, that government is a compact between those who govern and those that are governed: but this cannot be true, because it is putting the effect before the cause; for as man must have existed before governments existed, there necessarily was a time when governments did not exist, and consequently there could originally exist no governors to form such a compact with.

The fact therefore must be, that the individuals themselves, each in his own personal and sovereign right, entered into a compact with each other to produce a government: and this is the only mode in which governments have a right to arise, and the only principle on which they have a right to exist."

~ Thomas Paine
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Rob C
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« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2013, 03:35:09 AM »
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Nobody is offerng a solution for the alternative: a country wilfully leaving itself wide open to foreign exploitation and/or manipulation.

Ideal conditions have never existed in anything. It's each nation's duty to do the best it can, however it can, to stay ahead of the game. Denying that the game is being played all around us doesn't change a thing beyond rendering the naive state even more vulnerable.

As for the difference betwen keeping America 'safe' and doing the same for the 'Constitution', that's a definition too slim for me to discern. I'd have thought them conjoined twins.

But then, I'm not an American. Nor a twin.

Rob C
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opgr
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« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2013, 05:45:18 AM »
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Nobody is offerng a solution for the alternative: a country wilfully leaving itself wide open to foreign exploitation and/or manipulation.

And how exactly would you call that closure of airspace then?

As for constitutional rights: if you tell somebody to shut up when he's arguing in opposition of "freedom of speech", are you then defending that freedom?
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Oscar Rysdyk
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« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2013, 08:47:29 AM »
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Like what?

Like this:

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-07-01/opinions/40297899_1_intelligence-nsa-u-s-defense-department

Go ahead, pull a Henry Stimpson and tell me that gentlemen don't read each others' mail. Details on when and how we've penetrated other countries' communications systems is catastrophic for our ability to acquire intelligence. And don't give me any crap about how nasty it is for the U.S. to do this while the rest of the world doesn't read other countries' mail. Every country does it. Safety lies in doing it better than the competition.

The naivety I'm reading in this thread is astonishing.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 08:56:53 AM by RSL » Logged

BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2013, 09:26:20 AM »
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Go ahead, pull a Henry Stimpson and tell me that gentlemen don't read each others' mail. Details on when and how we've penetrated other countries' communications systems is catastrophic for our ability to acquire intelligence. And don't give me any crap about how nasty it is for the U.S. to do this while the rest of the world doesn't read other countries' mail. Every country does it. Safety lies in doing it better than the competition.

A valid question would be whether a majority of US citizens are aligned with your views that its ok to lower your standards to whatever other countries do.

In the present case, it appears that nobody asked their opinion, probably out of concern that they may vote against such practises.

If anything, this is what this debate is about.

Because if the citizens do not decide, then who does and according to what rules?

Cheers,
Bernard
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RSL
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« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2013, 10:07:55 AM »
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Unlike in Russia, China, and many, many other nations, in the United States the citizens do decide, Bernard. They decide every time they go to the polls. It's true they make some very bad decisions from time to time, but they're the ones who make the decisions. Our Congress and our President, elected by the citizens, knew in great detail and approved what was going on at the NSA.

Nobody in his right mind would put to a national vote questions about specific intelligence operations -- for a number of reasons, the first being that if you're at war with, say, Japan, it hardly makes sense to ask the people to vote on whether or not it's okay to break the Japanese naval code.
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Rob C
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« Reply #51 on: July 06, 2013, 10:08:41 AM »
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Well, Bernard, are you suggesting that the States go out on a limb and drop all hidden means of protecting themselves? Be the only country in the world doing that, abandoning their national responsibilities?

I find it very strange that any adult could argue the case for burying the collective head in the sand and doing nothing behind the scenes in order to save itself and even those reluctant members of its protesting citizenry from possible foreign harm.

It sounds almost as if the Fifth Column is ready to outvote the rest! Openly. There is no threat, everyone knows that, don't they? Yeah, right.

Hey ho real freedom!

Why am I thinking of lambs to the slaughter?

Rob C
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #52 on: July 06, 2013, 04:53:28 PM »
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Our Congress and our President, elected by the citizens, knew in great detail and approved what was going on at the NSA.

Really?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/17/us-snowden-forum-trial-idUSBRE95G0NQ20130617

Cheers,
Bernard
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2013, 04:55:41 PM »
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Well, Bernard, are you suggesting that the States go out on a limb and drop all hidden means of protecting themselves? Be the only country in the world doing that, abandoning their national responsibilities?

Never wrote that. I am saying that the decision to do these things should be left to a body of elected representatives.

Cheers,
Bernard
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RSL
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« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2013, 04:58:12 PM »
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Really. Reuters told only part of the story, which isn't uncommon for biased media outfits. I guess you've never heard of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. It's headed by Dianne Feinstein as a matter of fact, not exactly a right-wing crank, and it has 8 Democrats and 7 Republicans on it. They all knew about the work the NSA was doing and agreed with it. If they'd disagreed they'd have been able to stop it in a heartbeat.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 05:03:17 PM by RSL » Logged

BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2013, 05:00:20 PM »
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Really. Reuters told only part of the story, which isn't uncommon for biased media outfits. I guess you've never heard of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. It's headed by Dianne Feinstein as a matter of fact, not exactly a right-wing crank, and it has 8 Democrats and 7 Republicans on it. They all knew about the work the NSA was doing and agreed with it. If they'd disagreed they'd have been able to stop it in a heartbeat.

You are correct, I didn't know about the SSCI. They have apparently been playing their control role very well on the WMD related lies having triggered the Irak war among other things.

I am relieved to know such mechanisms are in place.

Now, is it not precisely the SSCI that James Capper lied to on March 12, 2013?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/06/06/watch-top-u-s-intelligence-officials-repeatedly-deny-nsa-spying-on-americans-over-the-last-year-videos/

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 05:41:19 PM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

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RSL
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« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2013, 05:03:59 PM »
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Better read the whole thing my friend. I had to add to it after I started it.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2013, 05:43:32 PM »
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Russ, that's just another speculative opinion, like yours is. Like this one, except this contains some modicum of facts:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/05/edward-snowden-nsa-whistleblower-spy

Even the US government is not charging him with espionage:

Quote
... Yes, he was indicted under the Espionage Act, but the actual charges against him are theft of government property, unauthorized communication of national defense information, and willful communication of classified intelligence information to an unauthorized person.)...
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Slobodan

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Rocco Penny
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« Reply #58 on: July 06, 2013, 05:45:45 PM »
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uhoh

thy're in the wire again Sir,
broken arrow! REPEAT!
BROKEN ARROW
ok no really the denseness of the American electorate forcefed the facts by an ever burgeoning red-mongering
that plays out in a familiar if untuned lurch-
so we can't all agree-
never-
period end of story, maybe not for you,
but for me.
I realized as I was speaking to an indigenous teacher the other day that there are a million ways of seeing things,
and to ever be told the right way is the way that follows the script that has been handed down from generation to generation,
and to not expect that the natural order will take over if the evolution calls for it is just science denial.
Forget snowden for a minute.
Think of the idea,
that anyone, anywhere can blow the lid off of previously hidden dealings,
well these are those times.
War is peace, freedom is control,
and money is the solution to everything.
Not workable and at least the idiot snowden accelerates the failure of the people to push back against the police state.
Illustrates how the truth just doesn't matter.
Pictures?
Falsified documents?
That's nothing compared to the reeming the world gets at the hands of the OLD power structure,
and its failure to recognize early on the human race will move on without them.
They should learn to cooperate with the 99% and willingly accept the paradigm shift.
Just like in the 80's when people said "don't go there" as some kind of interjection,
and the dirty harry line, go ahead make my day sounded stupid after the second time you heard it
there won't be a general recognition that the culture wars are over by the millions and millions of right wing fanatic types in the us, that were apt to use those lines at any time in their existence.  I don't care if it was 1976 at a party where everyone was on coke...  If you ever used either of those lines, OR
got/get any of your material from the EIB Network,
you're disqualified too,
also if you're more than 20% heavier than the ideal weight for your height and body type,
or if you have any pre exising conditions excluding at least ten to twenty years of excellent health and the ability to contribute a net gain to the functioning society,
well you won't have any say either,
so when you act like feinstein is a left wing lapdog,
I LAUGH IN YOUR FACES>
SHOW ME ONE SHRED OF EVIDENCE TO BACK YOUR CLAIM<
and convince me she isn't atilla the hun reincarnated,
gop and tp ought to send her flowers fer goddsake,
she is only my senator because no one else has a chance and if you think I'd vote for Issa or a crony of his,
well
just look at POerry, Scott,
and now the assault on African American and Latino voting rights in the US
Snowden= SNOWJOB
where in the future we might see a savings from having the tools we use to spy,
used as a means to further the rights of man.
But in my parallel  universe I know there aren't easy solutions,
as long as everybody regards the calories we need as an object to enrich themselves
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 05:53:14 PM by Rocco Penny » Logged
Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #59 on: July 06, 2013, 05:56:02 PM »
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Never wrote that. I am saying that the decision to do these things should be left to a body of elected representatives.

I think Bernard, that you fell into Rob's trap. He successfully sidetracked the real debate from a government spying on its own citizens en masse, to governments spying on each other. I, for one, could not care less if they do it to each other. They've been doing it for ages, including "our staunchest allies" - just check the history of Israeli spies in the US.

The real debate should be about the Orwellian surveillance of citizens, about the boiling frog strategy, checks and balances, misuse of bogeyman issues (communism, terrorism) as a pretext for expansion of executive powers, erosion of constitutional and civil rights and privacy, etc.
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Slobodan

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