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Author Topic: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?  (Read 46449 times)
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #480 on: August 09, 2013, 02:17:56 AM »
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May!? How about "did"? Though not landmark, just two ordinary apartment buildings blown up by FSB (KGB successor) and blamed on Chechens in 1999. At least according to a widespread conspiracy theory.

Nice, the guy is a visionary!  Wink

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
Rob C
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« Reply #481 on: August 09, 2013, 02:56:45 AM »
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The latest one I heard was that Jack K. actually shot himself in that convertible in order to draw attention to his wife's overly strong attraction to Greek shipping; he much preferred the Irish yards.

Alternatively, it was a Mafia-led attack designed to get a new movie off the blocks. Yet others say it was the external arm of the United Trades Unions of Europe, in concert with the Animal Rights activists.

For myself, I'm convinced it never happened at all.

Rob C
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dreed
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« Reply #482 on: August 09, 2013, 12:11:20 PM »
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There are no conspiracy theories at play here, it is all real.

The US government is leading the way in moving away from open and accountable governance to a model that thrives on secrecy that extends well beyond what is required. Too many people out there are asleep and don't/won't care as long as there is food on the table and cable TV to watch.

It is only through the actions of brave folks such as Snowden that we are given a glimpse as to how long the government's arm has grown and how much of our daily life it needlessly intrudes into.
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Chris_Brown
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« Reply #483 on: August 09, 2013, 03:48:27 PM »
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The US government is leading the way in moving away from open and accountable governance to a model that thrives on secrecy that extends well beyond what is required. Too many people out there are asleep and don't/won't care as long as there is food on the table and cable TV to watch.

Sad but true.
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~ CB
dreed
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« Reply #484 on: August 10, 2013, 07:49:58 PM »
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IRS is using NSA data too, who in town isn't?

Exclusive: IRS manual detailed DEA's use of hidden intel evidence
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dreed
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« Reply #485 on: August 10, 2013, 08:00:22 PM »
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This is truly disturbing - the FISA/FISC operate in a manner that prevents people on the outside from knowing what is going on and any attempt to challenge its operations or decisions fails...

The government versus your secrets

... and so it is that the email service provider that Snowden was using chose to shut down instead of provide a compromised service, with another having followed suit.

Obviously if you want to run a service that provides secret and secure email, the USA is no longer the place to do that from.
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dreed
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« Reply #486 on: August 10, 2013, 08:09:03 PM »
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NNSA loophole allows warrantless search for US citizens' emails and phone calls

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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #487 on: August 10, 2013, 11:34:38 PM »
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I dunno about you guys.. but this just isn't the "change" I was hoping for.  And I'm sick and tired of hearing him blame the other guy.  If he didn't think he could make meaningful change in 4 or 8 years then why the heck did he apply for the job?
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alba63
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« Reply #488 on: August 11, 2013, 03:50:09 AM »
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I dunno about you guys.. but this just isn't the "change" I was hoping for.  And I'm sick and tired of hearing him blame the other guy.  If he didn't think he could make meaningful change in 4 or 8 years then why the heck did he apply for the job?

Very sad to say, but I have to admit that, too. I guess he started with the best intentions, but he ended up the way we see him now. He probably slipped deeper into the dark zone than his predecessor ever was. On the other hand, the other one would most likely not have been better either.

As for the original question: While I would not call Snowden a "hero" (because I believe heroism is not a very useful concept in our modern world anymore), I think he is has shown remarkable courage, done a very good thing, and even if he did not forsee the full consequences, he has done the western world (the people I mean, not the governments) a huge service by disclosing some of the dirty stuff secret services all over the western world (US, GB, also Germany who collaborate with the NSA), plus the big players in the internet business have come to take as their standard mechanisms and methods. I just hope that a big enough part of the population will make clear to their governments of their countries that they are not willing to accept that stuff. "terrorism" has become a phoney excuse for their never- ending urge of surveillance.

Bernie
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #489 on: August 11, 2013, 10:18:01 AM »
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he is has shown remarkable courage, done a very good thing, and even if he did not forsee the full consequences, he has done the western world (the people I mean, not the governments) a huge service by disclosing some of the dirty stuff secret services a

We won't know if it was courage until the full story is told.  As far as I service.. I don't think so.  To have been a service "the people" would have to have been provided "actionable" material.  In other words, what constructive was done with the information?   AFAIK nothing.

As citizens we all know the government has secrets which would be less effective/useful if they weren't secrets (public knowledge).   From what I can see he hasn't actually helped anyone, but instead has made our country less effective in carrying out their missions.  It's folly to think every citizen needs to know every detail of what the government is doing.

About the wiretaps..  isn't this something we should have expected?  I'm sure we can see how useful they have the potential to be.  It's just too bad the administration didn't have the courage to go about it the right way..
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #490 on: August 11, 2013, 11:29:25 AM »
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... hat constructive was done with the information?   AFAIK nothing...

But it is starting:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324522504579002653564348842.html

Quote
In a striking policy shift... an extraordinary step in the face of this year's revelations from fugitive NSA leaker Edward Snowden...President Barack Obama announced plans to overhaul key parts the National Security Agency's surveillance programs.
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Slobodan

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dreed
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« Reply #491 on: August 11, 2013, 11:49:13 AM »
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I dunno about you guys.. but this just isn't the "change" I was hoping for.  And I'm sick and tired of hearing him blame the other guy.  If he didn't think he could make meaningful change in 4 or 8 years then why the heck did he apply for the job?

Because he didn't understand at the time that the president isn't in control of the government.
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #492 on: August 11, 2013, 12:52:02 PM »
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Perhaps.  But when you take into account his initial reactions (lecturing us on how we should expect and accept such intrusions) it's hard to think this is anything but posturing.  I'll keep watch, but at this time I'm not hopeful.
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #493 on: August 11, 2013, 12:54:34 PM »
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Because he didn't understand at the time that the president isn't in control of the government.

Have you see any sign (other than grey hair and more frequent anger outbursts) he understands it now?

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dreed
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« Reply #494 on: August 11, 2013, 09:48:14 PM »
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Have you see any sign (other than grey hair and more frequent anger outbursts) he understands it now?

That's the wrong question to ask.

The question you should be asking is why isn't the president able to effectively control or manage the government?
Why is the government telling the president what to do rather than it being the other way around?
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #495 on: August 12, 2013, 08:42:34 AM »
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That's the wrong question to ask.

The question you should be asking is why isn't the president able to effectively control or manage the government?
Why is the government telling the president what to do rather than it being the other way around?

To me that answer is obvious and it was obvious from the first day he declared his candidacy.  He didn't have the background or credentials to effectively lead those with essentially more knowledge and experience in government.  The office of the President is set up so they don't "control" the government.   It's set up so they "lead" the government.  And the man is not an effective leader.
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RSL
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« Reply #496 on: August 12, 2013, 09:33:38 AM »
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The question you should be asking is why isn't the president able to effectively control or manage the government?
Why is the government telling the president what to do rather than it being the other way around?

The illusion that the president is supposed to "control or manage the government" is one shared by most people who know nothing about the U.S. Constitution or U.S. history. Article 2 of the Constitution charges the president to "take care that the laws be faithfully executed." In other words, the president's job is to enforce the laws, not make them. Congress makes the laws. The president can veto bills brought before him for signing, but if a large enough part of the congress disagrees with the president's veto, congress can override the veto and turn the bill into law. Even if the president disagrees with congress's override, he's still required under the Constitution to enforce the law.

In other words, "the government," embodied in the congress, is supposed to tell the president what to do.
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dreed
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« Reply #497 on: August 12, 2013, 10:31:42 AM »
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The illusion that the president is supposed to "control or manage the government" is one shared by most people who know nothing about the U.S. Constitution or U.S. history. Article 2 of the Constitution charges the president to "take care that the laws be faithfully executed." In other words, the president's job is to enforce the laws, not make them. Congress makes the laws. The president can veto bills brought before him for signing, but if a large enough part of the congress disagrees with the president's veto, congress can override the veto and turn the bill into law. Even if the president disagrees with congress's override, he's still required under the Constitution to enforce the law.

In other words, "the government," embodied in the congress, is supposed to tell the president what to do.

If that's the case then what's happening should be what is/was to be expected.
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RSL
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« Reply #498 on: August 12, 2013, 11:33:31 AM »
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Not exactly. Remember, the president is to "take care that the laws be faithfully executed."
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dreed
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« Reply #499 on: August 16, 2013, 07:43:01 AM »
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In case there was any doubt as to whether Snowden was right in calling attention to the NSA's behaviour:

NSA broke privacy rules thousands of times per year, audit finds
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