Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 35 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?  (Read 88931 times)
BernardLanguillier
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 8357



WWW
« on: July 03, 2013, 09:02:22 PM »
ReplyReply

We used to treat Russian political refugees exposing the KGB's acts as heroes, how do we look at Edward Snowden today?

- Criminal clearly endangering the national security of our countries?
- Heroe trying to inform us about the Kafkaian exaggeration of our security agencies who seem to be working without any democratic control?

I'd be interested in your views my friends.

Cheers,
Bernard
Logged

A few images online here!
Kirk Gittings
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1552


WWW
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2013, 09:28:47 PM »
ReplyReply

He could be both.....
Logged

Thanks,
Kirk

Kirk Gittings
Architecture and Landscape Photography
WWW.GITTINGSPHOTO.COM

LIGHT+SPACE+STRUCTURE (blog)
KirbyKrieger
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 419


WWW
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2013, 10:43:08 PM »
ReplyReply

He's the personification of a very large aperture and a (so far) thin depth of field.  His prints merely hint at what he might do -- and, personally, I think a little more sharpening would go a long way towards making his good images excellent.   For now all we an do is guess and wish him good light, and, particularly, a robust set of back-ups.

We would do well, though (imho) to slip a more nuanced scale under the needle of our judgement.  The gamut of human action is much more complex that a line fixed to "Hero" on one side and "Criminal" on another allows.  Even in the supposedly distilled world of military engagement "Hero" and "Criminal" reveal more about those who use such labels than the actions themselves.  The murderers at Béziers were surely heroes, if only for a day (when better armed heroes tried to deprive them of loot), as were those who bombed Pearl Harbor.
Logged

Vladimirovich
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1320


« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2013, 12:19:33 AM »
ReplyReply

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/03/world/americas/bolivia-plane-snowden/

dogs on a leash...
Logged
Chairman Bill
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1598


WWW
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2013, 03:55:37 AM »
ReplyReply

His revelations expose criminal wrongdoing (lying to Congress is a felony) by senior figures in the US intelligence & security services. No arrests as yet, funnily enough.

Just saying.
Logged

ripgriffith
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 245


« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2013, 04:23:20 AM »
ReplyReply

I don't think it is an issue over which reasonable people can reasonably disagree.  Unless blinded by idealogy or some sort of  perverted patriotism (which is maybe the same thing), one must see that the criminals here are Obama and his NSA lapdogs.
Logged
Rob C
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12213


« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2013, 05:26:55 AM »
ReplyReply

Oh were public life the simple thing some would have it be!

The reality is different. There are always infinite layers and there have to be.

In a world where every government, 'friendly' or blatantly not so realises that alliances and friendships between governments are always based on self-interest and can switch at the roll of a revolution, it's patently madness and lack of due diligence to leave one's nation unprotected from possible/probable international political power shifting. The only way you can do that is by knowing what's really going down in other governmental circles, not what they tell you is the reality.

Would you have your government the only one neglecting its responsibilites to stay ahead of the game?

As for the whistleblowers, I'd jail the lot and dump the keys. The surprising thing is they passed any screening to get to a position where they can do so much international harm.

If you really want to help the world or even 'just'  Mexico, why not start at home and do something about the appetites of all those junkies driving the murder of so many people across and along the Rio Grande? Fix that first. It can be done if the will is there. A grateful world will pay tribute to you.

Rob C
Logged

Schewe
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 5532


WWW
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2013, 05:53:08 AM »
ReplyReply

Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?

Yes...

He is both...he knew full well he was breaking the law (he admitted as such) and yes he exposed what some would consider "useful content"...it really depends on which side of the equation the "useful content" falls...personally, I think he did nobody any favors. Much of what he (and others) have disclosed failed to deliver any real useful context. Raw data is raw data and needs a degree of context to comprehend...if selective eavesdropping prevents deaths, can you really argue against that? Can you really make the argument that privacy trumps everything? Yes, if you are doing something nefarious...not so much if you are a normal citizen. If you are doing nothing nefarious, why would you care?

I live in an area where certain high priority politicians have been known to visit (yes, I've had my phones taped and keywords scrubbed to determine if I was a "threat" by the Secret Service–sadly, The SS thought I was "safe") and I have no problem with that...we've had Clinton and Obama in our neighborhood (pretty sure we've not had any Republicans in our hood–it's pretty democratic here in Chicago). And I have no problem with the NSA recording and evaluating my calls or emails. I'm not a terrorist...I'm not planing an overthrow of the government...the biggest thing I think about this whole thing is that the more data that is evaluated, the more difficult it will be to evaluate. Talk about drowning in data...but if they can mine some useful data, more power to them.

So, does the question which is coming from Japan (Pretty sure Bernard doesn't live in the states) make any difference? You bet...the view outside of the US is different from within...
Logged
Rocco Penny
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 484



« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2013, 07:43:53 AM »
ReplyReply

I'll be polite to explain I was the cause of another website banning political discussion.
Not because I'm an impolite poster or anything,
but because the facts and truth sometimes aren't what people want to hear.
So there were 4 million dead in Iraq.
There is the obvious distancing of the police state from its very purpose,
and no one says much.  Tazering grandmas fer goshs sake
So, if you want law enforcement reading lula let's have these posts.
Because the truth is real.
And they'll be here shortly if they're not already.
So I figure anything I say here will make its way right to where I want,
and I say some incendiary if perfectly legal things.
I'd suggest we don't encourage this on this site.
There'll be law enforcement wasting money reading drivel
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 08:30:28 AM by Rocco Penny » Logged
stamper
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2877


« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2013, 07:56:53 AM »
ReplyReply

America has in recent years been openly imploring members of Iran's intelligence to "spill the beans" with respect to nuclear programs but if you "spill the beans" of the American secrets you will be hunted. Double standards? This brave man paid a heavy penalty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu

Because Israel and the USA are "best pals" I believe there wasn't any condemnation by the USA. IMO it takes a brave person to become a whistler blower and no doubt he will suffer the consequences. Sad
Logged

Alan Klein
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 783



WWW
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2013, 08:22:33 AM »
ReplyReply

He should have stood his ground and defended his position here in America.  Many Americans would have come to his aid and supported him.  His running makes him seem like an ego-seeking narcissist seeking his 15 minutes of fame.  If and when he gets arrested, not many Americans by then will care what happens to him.
Logged
Harlem22
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 696



« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2013, 08:31:54 AM »
ReplyReply

Don't wrestle with a pig because you get dirty as a pig and in the end you will be perceived as a pig.

What did R.S. thought when he joined Booz, Allen, Hamilton to work for those agencies? The world of intelligence services had never been the home of moral and integrity. He's old enough to figure out that he was heading into a dirty business. So what's the fuss?

In my opinion he's either a nitwit or a criminal, perhaps both. In the first case he just experiences the wonderful process of evolution.

A hero? No, my heroes are not dumb.

Harald
« Last Edit: July 04, 2013, 08:40:56 AM by Harlem22 » Logged
RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6515



WWW
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2013, 08:37:05 AM »
ReplyReply

One thing everybody seems either to forget or ignore is that when Snowden went to work for the NSA he took a solemn oath to preserve the secrets with which he was entrusted. Nobody who violates that kind of oath is a "hero."
Logged

opgr
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1125


WWW
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2013, 09:16:54 AM »
ReplyReply

One thing everybody seems either to forget or ignore is that when Snowden went to work for the NSA he took a solemn oath to preserve the secrets with which he was entrusted. Nobody who violates that kind of oath is a "hero."

You seem to ignore that that is totally and utterly irrelevant in international espionage.

Perhaps he was contacted and payed by the Chinese in the years prior to this incident to commit espionage. It wouldn't surprise me at all, and would explain the rather contorted unfolding of events.

(And by consequence, perhaps he was hoping to receive a hero's welcome over in China, although I don't believe that is the case. I still wonder though what he was looking for in Hong-kong.)
Logged

Regards,
Oscar Rysdyk
theimagingfactory
Slobodan Blagojevic
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 6186


When everybody thinks the same... nobody thinks.


WWW
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2013, 09:42:19 AM »
ReplyReply

Rosa Parks broke the law too. Just saying.
Logged

Slobodan

Flickr
500px
RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6515



WWW
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2013, 09:47:58 AM »
ReplyReply

You seem to ignore that that is totally and utterly irrelevant in international espionage.

And who, in espionage, do you consider a "hero," Oscar? Understand, after 26 years in the Air Force and three wars I'm fully aware of the need for espionage. But "hero" is something different.

And yes, Slobodan, Rosa was a hero, but she didn't break her word or a pledge when she became one.
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 6186


When everybody thinks the same... nobody thinks.


WWW
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2013, 10:02:55 AM »
ReplyReply

Russ, isn't it true in any civilized army in the world that you have to follow orders unless they are criminal in nature? I would assume the same rule applies to pledges and oaths.
Logged

Slobodan

Flickr
500px
opgr
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1125


WWW
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2013, 10:37:35 AM »
ReplyReply

And who, in espionage, do you consider a "hero," Oscar? Understand, after 26 years in the Air Force and three wars I'm fully aware of the need for espionage. But "hero" is something different.

I wouldn't be knowledgable enough to answer.
It certainly wasn't meant as an argument to call anyone a hero.

It simply seems to me that the oath makes it a legal case in the US, but has no relevance in other countries. What worries me most is the fact that international airspace was so easily closed on the basis of pure conjecture, and in countries that have nothing to do with the alleged perpetration. What legal (democratic) basis was there for closing that airspace? Who decided to do so? How did they manage to do that relatively quickly and easy?

It's fine that the US is conducting its own fox-hunt on the guy if there is a legal basis for it, but clearly the measures currently being taken do not seem to correlate with the incident.

I suppose I'll just wait for the next Clancy novel. Leave conspiracy theory to the expert, I say.

Logged

Regards,
Oscar Rysdyk
theimagingfactory
RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6515



WWW
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2013, 10:44:32 AM »
ReplyReply

Russ, isn't it true in any civilized army in the world that you have to follow orders unless they are criminal in nature? I would assume the same rule applies to pledges and oaths.

Not the same thing at all, Slobodan. When you hire on at the NSA you voluntarily make a solemn pledge. When you receive an order in the military you're not pledging anything. You've already pledged not to follow illegal orders.

But let's get serious. Everybody's acting as if Snowden is a hero because he divulged the fact that the NSA is gathering and processing statistical data on the origin, destination, and duration of telephone calls and the origin and destination of emails. There's not an intelligence agency in the world that wasn't already well aware of that. That part of Snowden's "revelation" is about as significant as a revelation of the secret that the sun will come over the horizon tomorrow.

But he revealed a lot more than that, and the other stuff is going to cost lives and a lot of pain for a lot of people. There also seems to be some evidence that Snowden didn't act alone. So what we may have is an agent of, if not a hostile government, at least an international conspiracy bent on damaging the United States. If that makes Snowden a "hero" then you shouldn't be bothered if, in the future, the result of his "heroism" is death or disfigurement of some of your friends or family members.
Logged

kers
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 787


WWW
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2013, 12:25:51 PM »
ReplyReply

...
There also seems to be some evidence that Snowden didn't act alone. So what we may have is an agent of, if not a hostile government, at least an international conspiracy bent on damaging the United States. If that makes Snowden a "hero" then you shouldn't be bothered if, in the future, the result of his "heroism" is death or disfigurement of some of your friends or family members.....

This is new for me.. any sources?


.... What worries me most is the fact that international airspace was so easily closed on the basis of pure conjecture, and in countries that have nothing to do with the alleged perpetration. What legal (democratic) basis was there for closing that airspace? Who decided to do so? How did they manage to do that relatively quickly and easy?
I agree,.. and as far as i know there is no international legal way to check a diplomatic airplane…(Try the airforce one..!) But then Americans are not subjected to laws that does not suite them..

It is always difficult to make your mind up about things you do not know enough about - only from newspapers. But i was surprised that  there was no direct denial on any of the statements Snowden made.

If it is true that so many people like him have access to tapped information then I wonder it the cure is not worse than the pain.
It is time all the private content over the internet must be encrypted... in that way their smart searches won't work directly...


Logged

Pieter Kers
www.beeld.nu
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 35 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad