Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 ... 34 »   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?  (Read 82511 times)
Alan Klein
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 783



WWW
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2013, 12:47:13 PM »
ReplyReply

I thought this NSA thing was about phone calls not internet.
Logged
RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6438



WWW
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2013, 12:56:56 PM »
ReplyReply

It's both, Alan, but it's actually about source, destination, and in the case of phone calls, duration. Our miserable "media" have made it sound as if NSA people are reading the contents of everybody's emails and listening to their phone calls. That kind of crap sells newspapers and grabs TV viewers. In the end though, if there's an indication phone calls or emails between somebody in the U.S. and a foreign country might involve terrorism NSA has to get a ruling from a FISA court before it can listen in or read the emails. The whole thing that people are raising hell about is nothing more than a statistical analysis of communications traffic. It's a lot less invasive than Google or Amazon analyzing your web searches and purchases.
Logged

RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6438



WWW
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2013, 01:01:25 PM »
ReplyReply

This is new for me.. any sources?

I overshot, Pieter. At this point it's all speculation. You can read about the speculation in the Wall Street Journal, the Weekly Standard or the Washington Examiner. But what it boils down to is the difficulty of believing he was able to grab that much stuff without help.
Logged

nemo295
Guest
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2013, 01:55:55 PM »
ReplyReply

Even Snowden himself acknowledges that he committed a felony, which is another way of calling yourself a criminal.

The issue of whether is also a hero is another matter. I tend to think of him as a dangerously naive egotist who mistakenly believed he was acting in accordance with some lofty moral code.

I think what he really did was to damage my country's ability to use an important tool in the effort to identify terrorist threats.

The NSA program that Snowden betrayed was not about listening in on phone calls. The metadata they were using is the same information you get on your monthly phone bill--numbers called, along with date and duration.

The NSA plugs this information into a huge computer database which uses it to recognize patterns of communications between persons of interest. That helps determine who may need to be investigated more deeply. It's not spying. It's shaking the haystack to see if a needle falls out.

Snowden was not only naive, he was stupid. I don't believe he was acting in concert with an enemy. He was probably acting on his own. I think he's being truthful when says that he was given the means to gather the data he did. IMO, that's more of an indictment of the private NSA contractor who vetted and hired him than anything else.

Ultimately, what it will all come down to is either Snowden will languish for the rest of his life in some third world backwater, or he's going to be repatriated and spend a very long time behind bars. Either way, the life he enjoyed before now is over.
Logged
Kenneth Sky
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 421


WWW
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2013, 05:01:22 PM »
ReplyReply

I would refer you to a book recently published:Dirty Wars. In it the author shows that most presidents of the USA since Ronald Reagan have abrogated congressional and judicial oversite in their conduct on the "war on terrorism" and have outsourced intelligence gathering and covert actions to unelected and unaccountable corporations. This behaviour is alluded to by John LeCarre in his most recent novel about the British government as well (but the latter is fiction, of course). Where were all these high minded patriots when their constitutionally granted civil rights were taken away from them by the "Patriot Act"? Since 9-11, it seems security has trumped civil rights in America.
Logged
RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6438



WWW
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2013, 05:49:28 PM »
ReplyReply

There's certainly something to that, Kenneth, but the President can't really abrogate congressional oversight unless the Congress lets him. The executive and congressional branches are in it together. If you're a congressman or a president and you outsource decisions, then when mistakes are made you can claim that the mistakes weren't your fault and wash your hands of the whole thing. As far as the Court is concerned, it's pretty hard for the supremes to step in unless there's a pretty clear violation of the Constitution. The reason security has, in some cases at least, trumped civil rights is that a majority of the members of our society no longer know a damned thing about history or government or pay any attention to what their elected officials are doing to them. People are voluntarily surrendering their liberty. It's just too hard for people in an advanced society to stay on top of things and then do the difficult things you have to do to keep your freedom. Freedom isn't free, but our intelligentsia and our media tell people it is and they don't know any better.
Logged

BernardLanguillier
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 8236



WWW
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2013, 10:27:32 PM »
ReplyReply

So, does the question which is coming from Japan (Pretty sure Bernard doesn't live in the states) make any difference? You bet...the view outside of the US is different from within...

I don't think this is about US vs non US Jeff.

It was revealed yesterday, as a consequence of Snowden's actions, that France does the same thing to its citizens. More or less evolved we don't know.

Cheers,
Bernard
Logged

A few images online here!
Alan Klein
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 783



WWW
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2013, 10:54:56 PM »
ReplyReply

Maybe Snowden can go to France and get a job there.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/04/france-electronic-spying-operation-nsa
Logged
ripgriffith
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 207


« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2013, 01:58:10 AM »
ReplyReply

But he revealed a lot more than that, and the other stuff is going to cost lives and a lot of pain for a lot of people. There also seems to be some evidence that Snowden didn't act alone. So what we may have is an agent of, if not a hostile government, at least an international conspiracy bent on damaging the United States. If that makes Snowden a "hero" then you shouldn't be bothered if, in the future, the result of his "heroism" is death or disfigurement of some of your friends or family members.

I hate to be so crass as to call a spade a spade, but this is right-wing conspiracy crap, nothing more.
Logged
BernardLanguillier
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 8236



WWW
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2013, 02:37:32 AM »
ReplyReply

But he revealed a lot more than that, and the other stuff is going to cost lives and a lot of pain for a lot of people. There also seems to be some evidence that Snowden didn't act alone. So what we may have is an agent of, if not a hostile government, at least an international conspiracy bent on damaging the United States. If that makes Snowden a "hero" then you shouldn't be bothered if, in the future, the result of his "heroism" is death or disfigurement of some of your friends or family members.

Looking at facts, the odds are probably 10,000 times higher than our friends and families die from cancer that will not have been fixable since money was spent on Prism super computers instead of being spent on cancer research...

Cheers,
Bernard
Logged

A few images online here!
Rob C
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12213


« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2013, 03:50:53 AM »
ReplyReply

Looking at facts, the odds are probably 10,000 times higher than our friends and families die from cancer that will not have been fixable since money was spent on Prism super computers instead of being spent on cancer research...

Cheers,
Bernard




This is true, but it ignores the hard reality that countries, both 'friendly' and foe, are in terminal competition and that means now problems demanding now solutions. Some problems can't be shelved when it can mean the loss of sovereignty. Think of Cuba and the missiles. They were on their way - not just a theoretical possibility. You think anything has changed, that religion today is any less explosive an issue than a nuke? Does anyone believe that killing off a nation's trade possibilities is any less a disaster for it than dropping a few bombs upon it?

Nothing got safer: the methods of defeating another state just got smarter.

It won't get better. It's what humans are and have always been. Read your history over the last couple of thousand years.

Rob C
Logged

RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6438



WWW
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2013, 12:56:17 PM »
ReplyReply

I hate to be so crass as to call a spade a spade, but this is right-wing conspiracy crap, nothing more.

No kidding, Rip? How about explaining what the "conspiracy" is. Is it a conspiracy to accuse Snowden falsely of stealing secrets? Seems to me I read that not only did he confess, he bragged about it. Is it a conspiracy falsely to claim a security loss as a result of Snowden's theft? Where, exactly, is the "conspiracy?" And why is it a "right-wing" conspiracy? Seems to me a bunch of left-wing reporters have been deeply involved in following and reporting on this fiasco. Maybe your spade is a club.
Logged

Vladimirovich
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1320


« Reply #32 on: July 05, 2013, 01:48:39 PM »
ReplyReply

Think of Cuba and the missiles.
what about Cuba and missiles ? may be think first about Thors in UK and Jupiters in Italy and Turkey where those were deployed way before xUSSR decided to answer to that in 1962 ?  get a mirror... US always act hysterically when others do what US does itself.

PS: and do not suggest a crap that UK, Italy or Turkey had a veto power on how to use those or were operated by non US personnel... dogs on a leash.
Logged
Kenneth Sky
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 421


WWW
« Reply #33 on: July 05, 2013, 02:03:23 PM »
ReplyReply

As this blog site is about photography and we have strayed into geopolitics lets remain adults and treat each other civilly. We can respectfully disagree without resorting to incendiary language. As for me, I think I'll not return to this thread.
Logged
RSL
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6438



WWW
« Reply #34 on: July 05, 2013, 02:24:09 PM »
ReplyReply

what about Cuba and missiles ? may be think first about Thors in UK and Jupiters in Italy and Turkey where those were deployed way before xUSSR decided to answer to that in 1962 ?  get a mirror... US always act hysterically when others do what US does itself.

PS: and do not suggest a crap that UK, Italy or Turkey had a veto power on how to use those or were operated by non US personnel... dogs on a leash.

?
Logged

PeterAit
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1959



WWW
« Reply #35 on: July 05, 2013, 02:27:15 PM »
ReplyReply

I don't think it is an issue over which reasonable people can reasonably disagree. 

So people must agree with you on this issue or else they are, by definition, not reasonable? Now, there's a great way to start an intelligent conversation.
Logged

Peter
"Photographic technique is a means to an end, never the end itself."
View my photos at http://www.peteraitken.com
PeterAit
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1959



WWW
« Reply #36 on: July 05, 2013, 02:32:55 PM »
ReplyReply

As for the whistleblowers, I'd jail the lot and dump the keys. The surprising thing is they passed any screening to get to a position where they can do so much international harm.

So, no Pentagon papers, no Watergate revelations, no Iran-Contra information, no inside view of the Enron implosion, no public awareness of the willful negligence leading to the BP oil spill, is that what you want? Not me.
Logged

Peter
"Photographic technique is a means to an end, never the end itself."
View my photos at http://www.peteraitken.com
Rob C
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 12213


« Reply #37 on: July 05, 2013, 02:34:55 PM »
ReplyReply

what about Cuba and missiles ? may be think first about Thors in UK and Jupiters in Italy and Turkey where those were deployed way before xUSSR decided to answer to that in 1962 ?  get a mirror... US always act hysterically when others do what US does itself.

PS: and do not suggest a crap that UK, Italy or Turkey had a veto power on how to use those or were operated by non US personnel... dogs on a leash.


Vlad, when were you born?

Rob C
Logged

AFairley
Sr. Member
****
Online Online

Posts: 1179



« Reply #38 on: July 05, 2013, 06:34:49 PM »
ReplyReply

The reason security has, in some cases at least, trumped civil rights is that a majority of the members of our society no longer know a damned thing about history or government or pay any attention to what their elected officials are doing to them. People are voluntarily surrendering their liberty.

Because people will happliy trade their freedom for the illusion of "security."  I remember a comment by Pres. Bush that his job was to "keep Americans safe."  Um, no, the president's job is to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."   It's sickening the way this county is letting the rights that were paid for and preserved with the blood of generation after generation be stripped away with hardly a whimper.
Logged

Slobodan Blagojevic
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 6077


When everybody thinks the same... nobody thinks.


WWW
« Reply #39 on: July 05, 2013, 07:46:32 PM »
ReplyReply

...That part of Snowden's "revelation" is about as significant as a revelation of the secret that the sun will come over the horizon tomorrow...

If all he did is point out the obvious, insignificant, statistical banalities, then what's the problem? He did not divulge any secrets in that case, did he? So, not really a spy. You can't have it both ways, Russ.
Logged

Slobodan

Flickr
500px
Pages: « 1 [2] 3 4 ... 34 »   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad