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Author Topic: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?  (Read 80046 times)
Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #440 on: August 05, 2013, 11:47:03 AM »
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FYI: The Onion is a satire site.

Their "news" stories aren't real.

FYI Pop, I hope you understand that a satire stings (and says) more than a naked truth? That, for instance, Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert form Comedy Central are the source of real news, and Fox News is the source for comedy?
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« Reply #441 on: August 05, 2013, 01:19:35 PM »
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Anyone who accepts Fox News as anything other than a front for the far right wing of the Republican Party is likely to believe anything.

But this would not be the first time that someone mistook The Onion as fact.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/28/world/iran-news-agency-duped
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Rob C
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« Reply #442 on: August 05, 2013, 01:39:27 PM »
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FYI Pop, I hope you understand that a satire stings (and says) more than a naked truth? That, for instance, Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert form Comedy Central are the source of real news, and Fox News is the source for comedy?


Good grief, Slobodan! For a brief moment there I thought you'd joined with my friend who thinks a ? at the end of a statement creates a question! That's dangerous stuff for two heart attacks to cope with; so teensie Laurel Canyon, don't you think?

;-)

Rob C
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 01:44:37 PM by Rob C » Logged

Gulag
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« Reply #443 on: August 05, 2013, 05:58:28 PM »
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FYI: The Onion is a satire site.

Their "news" stories aren't real. Pew Research never conducted any such study.

Here are some other Onion stories that have "cited" Pew Research:

"Pew Research Poll Finds Creationists, Evolutionists Now Outnumbered By Whogivesashitists "

"Poll: 1 In 5 Americans Believe Obama Is A Cactus"

"Number Of Users Who Actually Enjoy Facebook Down To 4"

"Poll: Americans Feel Safer With Martha Stewart In Jail"

Here is what Howard Zinn had observed a while back, and let me quote:

"One percent of the nation owns a third of the wealth. The rest of the wealth is distributed in such a way as to turn those in the 99 percent against one another: small property owners against the propertyless, black against white, native-born against foreign-born, intellectuals and professionals against the uneducated and the unskilled. These groups have resented one another and warred against one another with such vehemence and violence as to obscure their common position as sharers of leftovers in a very wealthy country."

- Howard Zinn, A People's History of the United States, 1980

http://historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinncomrev24.html
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« Reply #444 on: August 05, 2013, 06:30:08 PM »
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All very interesting in and of itself, but in no way is it either new information or relevant.
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dreed
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« Reply #445 on: August 05, 2013, 11:39:01 PM »
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FYI: The Onion is a satire site.

Their "news" stories aren't real. Pew Research never conducted any such study.

And while The Onion may be satire and there for entertainment purposes, maybe you're missing the picture in that the joke is the research but the observation (that America seems to have a lot of "whogivesashit" people in it) isn't.

FYI Pop, I hope you understand that a satire stings (and says) more than a naked truth? That, for instance, Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert form Comedy Central are the source of real news, and Fox News is the source for comedy?

It is telling that many people (especially the young) actually look to those two shows as a source of their information on current affairs rather than the traditional outlets:

The Cycle Poll: 12% of Americans get their news from The Daily Show
Young get news from Comedy Central
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« Reply #446 on: August 05, 2013, 11:47:56 PM »
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Satire is a play on stereotypes. If people see others only as stereotypes they'll never see them as human beings.
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dreed
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« Reply #447 on: August 05, 2013, 11:50:15 PM »
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And given that they don't know the identity associated with any IP, how exactly is this an invasion of privacy? There's no evidence that any of this is being used for anything other than the stated purpose.

So if I put a GPS locator on a random car and track everywhere that it goes then because I don't know who they are it isn't an invasion of their privacy? I mean it isn't like I'm going to use it for anything ... and you'd also argue that I don't need a court order for that too, correct? It's not like I'm the DMV (or your local equivalent) so I won't know who owns the car. If it is a random car choice and I just happened to pick yours, well that would just be dumb luck for you, wouldn't it?

Now as for what the data is being used for, well this story...
Other agencies clamour for the data that the NSA compiles
... doesn't fill me with confidence as if the president says "thou shalt share", well it is all over, isn't it?

Quote
All countries have intelligence services and all of them engage in this kind of traffic analysis, because it's in their national interest. Not to do so in the face of an ongoing terrorist threat would be an an act of gross negligence.

So as long as the USA maintains a foreign policy that incites various people around the world to hate it, it is perpetuating the problem of terrorism which you then argue it needs to defend against by violating various parts of the constitution, human rights, etc.

The war against terrorism will be like the war on drugs: a never ending "problem" that is self created that requires a never ending amount of money to be spent on it, etc.
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Rob C
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« Reply #448 on: August 06, 2013, 03:46:02 AM »
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Here is what Howard Zinn had observed a while back, and let me quote:

"One percent of the nation owns a third of the wealth. The rest of the wealth is distributed in such a way as to turn those in the 99 percent against one another: small property owners against the propertyless, black against white, native-born against foreign-born, intellectuals and professionals against the uneducated and the unskilled. These groups have resented one another and warred against one another with such vehemence and violence as to obscure their common position as sharers of leftovers in a very wealthy country."

- Howard Zinn, A People's History of the United States, 1980

http://historyisaweapon.com/defcon1/zinncomrev24.html


That which you describe/quote isn’t really an organized conspiracy, the idea of which appears to be being propagated.

Man is, by nature, an unfriendly sort of animal, much like the rest of the predators. That happens to be the purpose of civilization: the attempt to reconcile, or at least keep within (and not include!) homicidal limits, the relationships that we all have to endure. Sit in the subway, compete for a taxi at the hospital gates when you have made the call but somebody else says that they did the ordering; reach for your credit card at the supermarket to pay for your weekly shopping when the guy behind you has bought a couple of cans of beer and nothing much else. The hatred towards strangers is palpable; if looks could kill there’d be no crowds.

Haves and have nots are the norm and always will be. It’s how life is, and no amount of envy and political posturing ever changes that – trials and revolutions enough have been attempted already, all of which turn into nothing but a redistribution of the available goodies to yet another select grouping. I’d rather they stay with those who create them than with those who steal them from the former.

Anyone with access to a newspaper’s editor, a tv station or a publishing house can make and spread faux statements that sound clever and deep; a few seconds of reading should be enough to indicate the direction from which they spring. Unfortunately, that analysis seldom seems to happen – it’s all gobbled up and read as fact.

Satire is a beautiful media: you can offend and insult and cloak it with a smile and make money at the same time. That you might regularly get sued is probably deductible, too. I don’t know, but if it’s true that the young get their political ‘knowledge’ from tv shows and literary comics, then that might go a fairly long way to explaining why the world is where it is today, and with decreasing signs of it managing to climb back out of the pit it’s digging for itself.

That the rich-list is as it is is hardly surprising; think back to school: how many people scored within the 95% - 100% ranges? Very few indeed. That defines the differences at a very early stage in life, and happens to be one of the very signifiers that so many governments do their best to disguise and discourage. Everything else is causal apart from the fact that some kids are bright and others not. It certainly doesn’t happen only in school: the outside, adult world has just as many challenges where scholastic skills are not able to compete with street smarts. Those who fall at both hurdles really have no-one and nothing else to blame but themselves.

But isn’t a perceived plot so much more rewarding and comforting?

;-)

Rob C
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Rob C
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« Reply #449 on: August 06, 2013, 03:57:04 AM »
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The war against terrorism will be like the war on drugs: a never ending "problem" that is self created that requires a never ending amount of money to be spent on it, etc.


There, I think I find we can agree.

Until the 'west' stops supporting (by inaction) the theft of land and also fails to stamp down hard on the users of drugs, the very ones who fuel the market in death (you don't long produce what folks won't buy), then of course the status quo continues and even grows.

Rob C
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SunnyUK
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« Reply #450 on: August 06, 2013, 05:09:17 AM »
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That the rich-list is as it is is hardly surprising; think back to school: how many people scored within the 95% - 100% ranges? Very few indeed. That defines the differences at a very early stage in life, and happens to be one of the very signifiers that so many governments do their best to disguise and discourage. Everything else is causal apart from the fact that some kids are bright and others not. It certainly doesn’t happen only in school: the outside, adult world has just as many challenges where scholastic skills are not able to compete with street smarts. Those who fall at both hurdles really have no-one and nothing else to blame but themselves.

Ah.... social Darwinism. Such an pleasantly easy and convenient way to avoid taking any responsibility for the society in which we live. It's their own fault. Indeed. *puke*
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Rob C
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« Reply #451 on: August 06, 2013, 09:26:28 AM »
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Ah.... social Darwinism. Such an pleasantly easy and convenient way to avoid taking any responsibility for the society in which we live. It's their own fault. Indeed. *puke*


If it isn't, to whom else would you toss responsibility? To me? To their despairing teachers or, perhaps, the employers who simply find them unemployable? Obviously, never to the useless themselves.

Seems the concept of blamelessness is wider than I'd feared. But then, I'm pretty sure you also doubt poor old Darwin on other matters, too.

Why do you think that of all the animals we are different, that adapt or die doesn't include the human condition as well? I'm constantly being reminded in this forum that I, too, must adapt or die, that my goode olden days are a figment of an aged imagination, that nobody had fantastic assignments, roamed the Earth on expenses and had one helluva good time doing it. Mostly, the odd client notwithstanding. Heavens, a love of film is enough to bring back the pterodactyl for some.

I await your social solution with interest.

Rob C
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SunnyUK
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« Reply #452 on: August 06, 2013, 09:41:09 AM »
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"Useless" Huh?   Wow, that's a cute label to attach to living, breathing human beings.

What does Van Gogh, Matthew Brady, Franz Schubert, William Blake, Edgar Allen Poe and Vermeer have in common?  They were all what you would call "useless" in that they managed to fail miserably in earning a living from what they created, and died poor and unappreciated by their contemporaries.

It's so easy to sling words around and I'm sure it must give you a very nice, warm feeling to sit in your sunny haven and mock those less fortunate than yourself.
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dreed
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« Reply #453 on: August 06, 2013, 09:54:27 AM »
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Until the 'west' stops supporting (by inaction) the theft of land and also fails to stamp down hard on the users of drugs, the very ones who fuel the market in death (you don't long produce what folks won't buy), then of course the status quo continues and even grows.

Who's theft of land is being ignored?
And why do you think coming down hard on drug users is the solution?

And why do you think either of those are the solution to the war on terror and drugs respectively?
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Rob C
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« Reply #454 on: August 06, 2013, 11:32:30 AM »
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1. Who's theft of land is being ignored?
2. And why do you think coming down hard on drug users is the solution?

And why do you think either of those are the solution to the war on terror and drugs respectively?


1. I would start the thought process with the illegal buildings on Palestinian lands; the consideration that as long as the US props up Israel and turns effectively blind eyes to the situation, continues to support it both militarily, morally (in private if not wholly in public at least) and financially, the US will be thought of as part and parcel of the Israeli action.

2. If there were no market for drugs, who would produce them and kill to maintain the industry? It has always been impossible to control production, mainly because much of it is abroad, but controlling the domestic buying market should be relatively easy, if the will were ever there.  Corruption knows many friends, at all levels. Just think of the lack of action by the financial watchdogs in 2008 if you doubt: they were there, lying in their boxes, preferred not to bark, but kept an eye instead on the food plates being filled. Today some are advisers to government, instead of in prison.

There’s an interesting movie, Inside Job, that has much to say on the subject.

The ‘west’ is often accused – mainly by its own revolutionaries - that its only interest is oil. Were that so, then there would not have ever been a problem: the Arabs are as willing to sell as the west to buy. The first thing post-invasion Iraq wanted was to export again, and Iran wants little more either. That it wishes a nuclear deterrent to its US-supported local nemesis is hardly rocket science nor unexpected. Few, anywhere, believe in the safety of verbal agreements and/or third-party defence promises. The sooner we learn to let ‘foreigners’ decide their own religious and domestic agendas, the better. We can’t, and shouldn’t, export our ideals as if they were sacrosanct, without flaw. They barely work for us!

My own opinion on the nuclear issue? I think that only those who already have it should be permitted its development. Its function as a final caller of bluff works: witness Cuba and the Missile Crisis. Any leader with even half a brain understands that unilateral deployment is tantamount to suicide. The danger, as ever, resides in those lands and minds where suicide is an honour, a fate better than life.

Rob C
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Rob C
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« Reply #455 on: August 06, 2013, 11:48:53 AM »
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"Useless" Huh?   Wow, that's a cute label to attach to living, breathing human beings.

What does Van Gogh, Matthew Brady, Franz Schubert, William Blake, Edgar Allen Poe and Vermeer have in common?  They were all what you would call "useless" in that they managed to fail miserably in earning a living from what they created, and died poor and unappreciated by their contemporaries.

It's so easy to sling words around and I'm sure it must give you a very nice, warm feeling to sit in your sunny haven and mock those less fortunate than yourself.


Even more easy to ignore the message, seize upon a single 'explosive!' word (got a better one?) and obfuscate with lists of other people you feel fell by the wayside for whatever reasons. I'm sure all of them would have been happier to have found their pot of gold whilst still alive. But the crucial difference is: they were talented. The unemployable of today's world are often just that: unemployable. Remember the makers of buggy whips, with whom I'm sometimes compared? I believe they were talented too...

As for mockery, it plays no part. The idea, evidently, resides within your head. 

In order to recognize a problem you have to give it a name and accept that it's there. Where I live is irrelevant. As is luck, outwith a lottery. The funny thing is, the harder folks work the more lucky they seem to become. Ever notice that? No, maybe not.

Rob C
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #456 on: August 06, 2013, 12:52:48 PM »
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Any leader with even half a brain understands that unilateral deployment is tantamount to suicide.
so we shall assume that US leaders were brainless with Thors & Jupiters in UK, Italy, Turkey way before xUSSR w/ Cuba ?
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« Reply #457 on: August 06, 2013, 02:42:34 PM »
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Sure, we'll assume that. But first you have to admit that Khrushchev was brainless for crushing the Hungarian revolt in 1956.   Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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dreed
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« Reply #458 on: August 06, 2013, 05:43:18 PM »
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2. If there were no market for drugs, who would produce them and kill to maintain the industry? It has always been impossible to control production, mainly because much of it is abroad, but controlling the domestic buying market should be relatively easy, if the will were ever there.

Understand that many drugs naturally grow wild and that human use of them dates back into ancient times (possibly since we were cave dwellers.) It is only the more modern "moral" or "thought" police that have declared them illegal and with it created the "war on drugs."

Making drugs illegal has some other effects:
- as a cash based economy, it is easy to generate a substantial tax-free income
- those who wish to generate income from them are able to exploit corrupt law enforcement officials
- it keeps law enforcement busy, puts lots of people in jail, is the raison d'etre for the entire DEA - i.e. creates lots of jobs
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Rob C
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« Reply #459 on: August 07, 2013, 04:35:29 AM »
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Understand that many drugs naturally grow wild and that human use of them dates back into ancient times (possibly since we were cave dwellers.) It is only the more modern "moral" or "thought" police that have declared them illegal and with it created the "war on drugs."

Making drugs illegal has some other effects:
- as a cash based economy, it is easy to generate a substantial tax-free income
- those who wish to generate income from them are able to exploit corrupt law enforcement officials
- it keeps law enforcement busy, puts lots of people in jail, is the raison d'etre for the entire DEA - i.e. creates lots of jobs


Dreed, I finally give up: your moral quicksands are as untraversable as your logic of cause and effect.

Rob C
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