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Author Topic: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?  (Read 66983 times)
Steve Weldon
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« Reply #540 on: August 22, 2013, 08:08:26 AM »
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Not all information should be public knowledge, but when and where the government decides to break the law, lie to its people, deceive its people and ignore the constitution of the country, information about such actions needs to be made available to the public so that the public that elected the government is able to make a proper decision as to whether the government that the public elected into office is acting in the best interests of the public and should remain.

Try to stay with the logic of what I'm saying.  Or rather try not to argue something I never said was otherwise.

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I know for a fact that mentioning such a thing whilst holding a clearance is the quickest way to lose it. I'd even go so far as to say that anyone publicly claiming to have held a security clearance never actually held such a clearance level. The first rule of having a security clearance is that you don't talk about it to anyone, especially not in public forums. Whether or not that also applies historically, I don't know for a fact but I've read books by those that have and nobody ever mentions them like this.

Apparently you don't know for a fact.  And your choice of books is misleading you.  A standard entry in any resume in the industry is to list your clearance level.  These are posted on the internet for anyone to see.  Also, when wearing the uniform there are 'rating' insignia worn by every member of the community for anyone to see.. google the rating and it says what clearance levels are required for the job.  There are many other ways an even halfway astute public would know.  I'd recommend you improve the quality of books you read or at least have the chops to know when they're writing for effect..

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Imagine that you are Snowden and that the issues you want to complain about seem to have the stamp of approval from the highest level. What do you do?


When you are indoctrinated at any clearance level or granted access to compartmented information you are given a path to take if such a thing occurs.. and are told the penalties involved.


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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #541 on: August 22, 2013, 08:48:54 AM »
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A standard entry in any resume in the industry is to list your clearance level.

true indeed, I am reading resumes on a daily basis as a part of my work in an IT consulting company and it is so... so do relevant people from certain countries for sure  Wink ... I was once subject to a regular FBI investigation about "penetration of the US software supply chain" (that much somebody forgot to white out in a paperwork that I obtained later through FOIPA), based I think on the place of my birth  Grin
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Rocco Penny
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« Reply #542 on: August 22, 2013, 09:07:12 AM »
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When Bradley Manning gets out, he has a free ride to college, a support group, relative fame and will be able to rest on his laurels here in the San Francisco Bay Area.
99% of the rest of US prisoners will get nothing.
Food stamps...
But enough about that guy and on to the real issue here.  Will exposing the truth and reporting it be punished?
That's all, not the reasons, not the rhetoric, just the question,
will whistle blowing and reporting be punished?
In Manning showing the world the incompetence of many public servants, and the degree of incompetence, he broke the ice.
Now Snowden shows us the apparatus and puts another piece in the puzzle.  Won't be long until the whole country will have to admit the shortcomings and failures of our elected and unelected public servants.
Why can't Bush or Cheney fly to Switzerland?
Vermont even said state troopers might try and arrest them at one time.
Ha- not a whimper until you thought they were looking at you looking at porn...
talk about hypocrites-
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #543 on: August 22, 2013, 09:33:33 AM »
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I just don't feel Snowden and especially Manning acted in the best interest of their country.
you just need to acknowledge that what they understand as "their" country and what you understand as "your" country are not the same thing... going back to a beaten example of a Nazi Germany... imagine one crypto technician, a devoted NSDAP member, etc... and his feelings about White Roses for example  Grin ... don't be offended... that technician was just loyal to "his" country.
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RSL
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« Reply #544 on: August 22, 2013, 10:14:56 AM »
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I know for a fact that mentioning such a thing whilst holding a clearance is the quickest way to lose it. I'd even go so far as to say that anyone publicly claiming to have held a security clearance never actually held such a clearance level. The first rule of having a security clearance is that you don't talk about it to anyone, especially not in public forums. Whether or not that also applies historically, I don't know for a fact but I've read books by those that have and nobody ever mentions them like this.

Dreed, maybe you missed the fact that Steve said he "held" that kind of clearance, not that he "holds" it. In my 26 Air Force years I held several advanced clearances, beyond top secret, and now that I'm long retired there's no restriction against my stating that fact. On the other hand, there are names and phrases I'm still prohibited from using, even though their significance is long past, and I'd suspect the same thing's true for Steve. Of course, since Steve's only twelve years old, he may not be as far away from those clearances as I am.

This whole thread has gone far beyond ridiculous. . . into worlds of the bizarre.
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RSL
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« Reply #545 on: August 22, 2013, 10:32:17 AM »
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Russ, you might be older, but I have more experience with terrorism. We had our first terrorist bombing in a crowded movie theater in Belgrade back in the sixties. First embassy hostage situation and murder of the Ambassador in Sweden in the early seventies.

Yes, Slobodan, bombs going off are terrifying experiences as are hostage situations and murders. But so are earthquakes, refinery explosions, lightning strikes, flash floods and wildfires, the last two of which I've experienced in person over the past two years. But none of these events are combat, or even close to it.

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Your buddies bombed a civilian target about several hundred yards from my home recently.

No kidding! Were you there? Which "buddies" were these and why did they bomb that particular target? If they really were my "buddies" then there probably was a good reason for the attack.

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London has been living under terrorism for decades. . .

Yes, England has been suffering for a many years as a result of its ever-increasing political correctness. Unfortunately the U.S. is suffering the same kind of absurdity, and under the current administration the problem's been accelerating. There'll come a point at which England either will wake up and fight back (that's called "war," Slobodan), or give in and become a caliphate under sharia. I'm sure Winston is spinning in his grave.
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #546 on: August 22, 2013, 11:35:08 AM »
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you just need to acknowledge that what they understand as "their" country and what you understand as "your" country are not the same thing... going back to a beaten example of a Nazi Germany... imagine one crypto technician, a devoted NSDAP member, etc... and his feelings about White Roses for example  Grin ... don't be offended... that technician was just loyal to "his" country.

1.  Generally I'm very careful which words I use and specifically why I use them.  "Their" was used for effect.  It would only make a difference to someone trying to understand.

2.  The problem with trying to draw parallels where government, time, culture, and other significant variables are concerned..  is that they are.   
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #547 on: August 22, 2013, 11:40:12 AM »
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Russ, you might be older, but I have more experience with terrorism. We had our first terrorist bombing in a crowded movie theater in Belgrade back in the sixties. First embassy hostage situation and murder of the Ambassador in Sweden in the early seventies. Your buddies bombed a civilian target about several hundred yards from my home recently.

you shall then remember Franz Ferdinand, I shall remember Alexander II, he shall remember Lincoln, etc, etc
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #548 on: August 22, 2013, 11:40:47 AM »
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Dreed, maybe you missed the fact that Steve said he "held" that kind of clearance, not that he "holds" it. In my 26 Air Force years I held several advanced clearances, beyond top secret, and now that I'm long retired there's no restriction against my stating that fact. On the other hand, there are names and phrases I'm still prohibited from using, even though their significance is long past, and I'd suspect the same thing's true for Steve. Of course, since Steve's only twelve years old, he may not be as far away from those clearances as I am.

This whole thread has gone far beyond ridiculous. . . into worlds of the bizarre.


1.  It's sometimes fun, other times annoying, when you see the same names/phrases/projects being discussed on the various history type channels..  often with a broader understanding and more accuracy that those who were there held.

2.  I didn't know what you were talking about so I took a look at my profile and there it is. 12 years old.  How does that get there?  Maybe an example of an Admin's sense of humour after reading my posts..  Cheesy
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RSL
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« Reply #549 on: August 22, 2013, 12:37:28 PM »
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Yeah, but you can change it and come clean.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #550 on: August 22, 2013, 01:06:06 PM »
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... If they really were my "buddies" then there probably was a good reason for the attack...

"My country, right or wrong," Russ?

As for a "good reason," you can always find one... that's called rationalization. I call it terrorism. Targeting purely civilian installations, with the goal to terrorize the population enough to force it to demand a change of policy favorable to you... the very definition of terrorism.
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Slobodan

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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #551 on: August 22, 2013, 01:30:19 PM »
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Yeah, but you can change it and come clean.

Aye.. I know what happened.  The system left a default date and I didn't change it.  For reasons of identity theft I didn't use my actual birthday on the web.. I'd just leave it blank.  Now I have an "internet birth date" I use which is close enough..
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #552 on: August 22, 2013, 01:31:16 PM »
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you shall then remember Franz Ferdinand, I shall remember Alexander II, he shall remember Lincoln, etc, etc

Huh!?
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Slobodan

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mezzoduomo
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« Reply #553 on: August 22, 2013, 02:43:00 PM »
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When Bradley Manning gets out.....

.....who will pay for his gender reassignment surgery?
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #554 on: August 22, 2013, 02:57:40 PM »
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.....who will pay for his gender reassignment surgery?

So, in his case, we are not talking about a hero, but a pussy? Grin
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Slobodan

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« Reply #555 on: August 22, 2013, 03:03:35 PM »
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323665504579028563211609706.html

Slobo,

I was not editorializing. He has asked for gender reassignment, which can be funded under certain circumstances by the aforementioned city by the bay.

http://blog.sfgate.com/cityinsider/2012/11/17/san-francisco-to-cover-sex-change-surgeries-for-all-uninsured-transgender-residents/
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Rob C
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« Reply #556 on: August 22, 2013, 04:45:11 PM »
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323665504579028563211609706.html

Slobo,

I was not editorializing. He has asked for gender reassignment, which can be funded under certain circumstances by the aforementioned city by the bay.

http://blog.sfgate.com/cityinsider/2012/11/17/san-francisco-to-cover-sex-change-surgeries-for-all-uninsured-transgender-residents/


Perfect disguise for a new life!

It'll probably count as a mitigatory factor in his early release. In Britain, he'd already have a fighting series of competing tabloids looking for his exclusive tail tale with a secondary string of Lawyers 4 U doing much the same. I sometimes feel sick when I look at the world of publications, in which I include television.

I just re-ran the recent McCullin video from the BBC... there was a man with guts, moral courage and the greater urge to make a difference. As photographer, self-taught and all the better for it. What a difference between his life and the Manning one.

Rob C
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dreed
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« Reply #557 on: August 22, 2013, 06:04:54 PM »
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you just need to acknowledge that what they understand as "their" country and what you understand as "your" country are not the same thing... going back to a beaten example of a Nazi Germany... imagine one crypto technician, a devoted NSDAP member, etc... and his feelings about White Roses for example  Grin ... don't be offended... that technician was just loyal to "his" country.

Well said!

Nazi Germany and what happened as a result is why Europeans understand the meaning of privacy.

Unfortunately for Americans (and the UK & others), their country has not been through such a dark period and thus the people don't understand why privacy is important. You might say that Europe has a "social memory" of why privacy is important. Similarly because of how the USA was founded, the right to bear arms is part of the constitution whereas other countries don't enshrine this right.
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Rob C
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« Reply #558 on: August 23, 2013, 03:33:46 AM »
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Well said!

Nazi Germany and what happened as a result is why Europeans understand the meaning of privacy.

Unfortunately for Americans (and the UK & others), their country has not been through such a dark period and thus the people don't understand why privacy is important. You might say that Europe has a "social memory" of why privacy is important. Similarly because of how the USA was founded, the right to bear arms is part of the constitution whereas other countries don't enshrine this right.


And I thought I'd just switched back to LuLa from The Onion!

Rob C
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dreed
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« Reply #559 on: August 23, 2013, 04:03:03 AM »
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For all of those saying that PRISM is necessary to protect America from terrorists and that it will only be used for such comes this:

New Zealand police affidavits show use of PRISM for surveillance

i.e PRISM (the NSA spying thing that is used to find terrorists) was used against the citizen of another country and that the said person is quite clearly not a terrorists - well except if you're the MPAA/RIAA because then the person accused (Kim Dotcomm) is possibly worse than a terrorist because his file sharing website allowed people to share files and breach copyright provisions and we all know that democracy and life as we know it in the USA will come to an end if people share movies and songs....
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