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Author Topic: Is Richard Snowden a heroe or a criminal?  (Read 45646 times)
dreed
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« Reply #620 on: September 16, 2013, 01:00:40 PM »
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Yes, it's a cracker. I imagine the Russians, Chinese and Al Qaeda are pretty downcast at being forced to learn about US attempts to find out what they're up to.

Everyone expects that.

What people don't expect is to find out in 2013 that in 2011, the NSA (US Government) obtained approval to start snooping on its own citizens.

It's not the spying on adversarial or "enemy" governments that is the issue here, it is the dragnet spying on people that picks up everything and anything without discrimination - especially as it has become obvious that this dragnet has included people (Americans) that it is not allowed to.

It is rather sad to see people making excuses for the US government to do all of this.
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kikashi
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« Reply #621 on: September 16, 2013, 01:55:04 PM »
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Everyone expects that.

What people don't expect is to find out in 2013 that in 2011, the NSA (US Government) obtained approval to start snooping on its own citizens.

It's not the spying on adversarial or "enemy" governments that is the issue here, it is the dragnet spying on people that picks up everything and anything without discrimination - especially as it has become obvious that this dragnet has included people (Americans) that it is not allowed to.

It is rather sad to see people making excuses for the US government to do all of this.

They don't necessarily expect to be given details of the methods, though: that's just a generous bonus, an aid to their attempts to avoid detection.

I'm making excuses for nobody. There's a big cultural dichotomy becoming apparent. We (the British) hear about governmental snooping and we think, yup, that's what GCHQ is for: us, them, anyone, who cares? You (Americans) get irate about it. We see no point in hamstringing ourselves in our attempts to keep us safe from the bad guys; you have different priorities.

I don't offer an explanation for the different views, I just observe that they exist. Hence my "yawn" response to your other post.

Jeremy
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RSL
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« Reply #622 on: September 16, 2013, 03:46:02 PM »
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There's a lot to yawn about in this thread.
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Rob C
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« Reply #623 on: September 17, 2013, 07:36:43 AM »
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There's a lot to yawn about in this thread.


Well speaking or, better, writing as a fully unqualified psychiartrist, I'd feel obliged to declare that I spot an awful lot of obsessive minds at work here. Paranoia, anyone? Nurse, lay that spike down at once!

;-)

Rob C
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dreed
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« Reply #624 on: September 17, 2013, 03:02:28 PM »
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Well speaking or, better, writing as a fully unqualified psychiartrist, I'd feel obliged to declare that I spot an awful lot of obsessive minds at work here. Paranoia, anyone? Nurse, lay that spike down at once!

;-)

Rob C

People used to be called paranoid because we had no proof that what they were scared about (government watching everything we do) was true.

The problem is that now we know for sure that the government does watch what we do online and tries to watch as much else as possible (phone information.)

It's a tough sell now to say that those people were paranoid for no reason or that their paranoia was misplaced.
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dreed
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« Reply #625 on: September 17, 2013, 03:06:36 PM »
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I'm making excuses for nobody. There's a big cultural dichotomy becoming apparent. We (the British) hear about governmental snooping and we think, yup, that's what GCHQ is for: us, them, anyone, who cares? You (Americans) get irate about it. We see no point in hamstringing ourselves in our attempts to keep us safe from the bad guys; you have different priorities.

I'd also look at how England eventually delt with the IRA (source of many terrorist attacks on England): sat down and talked with them (at least that is my recollection.) It may be that the surveillance state that grew out of that has led to more English people being accustomed to being "monitored."

Amazing what a good conversation will do when two parties meet to reconcile their differences.
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colinb
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« Reply #626 on: September 17, 2013, 03:15:49 PM »
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I'd also look at how England eventually delt with the IRA (source of many terrorist attacks on England): sat down and talked with them (at least that is my recollection.) It may be that the surveillance state that grew out of that has led to more English people being accustomed to being "monitored."

Amazing what a good conversation will do when two parties meet to reconcile their differences.

I agree with you for the most part, though I think it is worth remembering that the IRA never had as a goal the destruction of the British government. You can negotiate with people who want things different than the things you want. I think it might be harder to negotiate with people who want you to cease to exist.
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Rocco Penny
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« Reply #627 on: September 17, 2013, 04:08:51 PM »
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dang office work, waiting for phone calls, stamping and sending papers- all proprietary info,
what if I had an angle?
Let's say I know a guy that has a client that wants all of the work done very um privately.
Not trying to sidestep rules or anything else, lets say discretion and common decency require an agreement that backs it up, you know, sign here Jr...
Okay then let's say you find out stuff worth money to the right people, you know like in many many enterprises,
trade secrets and so on,
now everyone including the idiot snowden has your info,  would you trust him with a 30 million dollar idea?  If he has access the way he says he did,
who else?
Chelsea Manning?  I do not trust anyone that doesn't recognize just what this means.  Anyone in the patriot acting community can now scoop anyone's business secrets.
Anyones.
all my papers today, all my phone calls,  any and all trade secrets that have a home on any network, and all mail etc...
no privacy at all, how did you people let this happen?
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Rocco Penny
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« Reply #628 on: September 17, 2013, 04:13:05 PM »
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...
...I think it might be harder to negotiate with people who want you to cease to exist.
Oh yeah, you mean like the israelis  concerning the palestinians they wish would all die in the open air gulag prison camps called gaza and west bank?
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colinb
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« Reply #629 on: September 17, 2013, 04:49:11 PM »
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Oh yeah, you mean like the israelis  concerning the palestinians they wish would all die in the open air gulag prison camps called gaza and west bank?

Or the Palestinians concerning the Israelis and their political leadership's often expressed wish to push the jews into the sea - or do you really believe that the good or evil is all on one side here?

You see, you already know exactly what I'm talking about.

FWIW, the Egyptians have a role to play here to. Gaza shares a border with Egypt, and I note that it doesn't look a whole lot more open than that with Israel. But I digress. You've illustrated exactly the point I'm making. It's hard to negotiate when all you've got is 'what about' and 'but you hit me first' and 'my daddy/sponsor/provider-of-weapons' is bigger than yours. And all of those things apply to both sides in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, and nothing is going to get better until the people involved on both sides stop posturing and start talking.
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Rob C
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« Reply #630 on: September 17, 2013, 05:37:01 PM »
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I'd also look at how England eventually delt with the IRA (source of many terrorist attacks on England): sat down and talked with them (at least that is my recollection.) It may be that the surveillance state that grew out of that has led to more English people being accustomed to being "monitored."

Amazing what a good conversation will do when two parties meet to reconcile their differences.


Jeez, you think it's over? It will never be over because religion is involved, religion shared and defended by people who seldom, if ever, go to church as in prayer... It's inherited bigotry and as with much in life, from race, religion, politics and even to gays and straights, it is in the fabric to be partisan. The idea of brotherly love is a 20th Century myth. Nobody bought into it before, and I doubt many are convinced today. The hugging, always a brief interlude, died.

As for reconciling differences through conversation: you believe having the faces of known IRA supremos in government (as happened in Israel too) is a lot to do with reasoned conversation? Realpolitik, situation ethics and mutual exhaustion of energy and finance is closer to the truth.

Rob C
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Rocco Penny
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« Reply #631 on: September 17, 2013, 05:52:13 PM »
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... Realpolitik, situation ethics and mutual exhaustion of energy and finance is closer to the truth.

Rob C
oohhh
ouch!
that one hurt Rob,  

I can't help but feel a little bummed out about Brazil's President  being stabbed in the back by America.  Just when relations were improving, the economic dynamo that is brazil along with the other countries from the region playing backdrop on the one hand, and the US and its indefensible action spying on the state run petroleum company, wrangling out secrets from the presidents personal phone calls and email,
well President Rousseff has just canceled an important dinner at the white house after a 20 minute call to Obama today,
israel is using every drop of information the US GOVERNMENT COLLECTS AND HANDS OVER FREE OF  RESTRICTIONS...
and you think I'll say it's OK?
Man how did you even reach far enough to get israel into this conversation with regards to anything besides the illegal spying we perpetrate with its help?
Maybe you're confusing this thread with the one about syria and bombs and poison gas.
May I direct you to the thread in CC entitled "should we bomb syria?"
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Rob C
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« Reply #632 on: September 18, 2013, 03:17:56 AM »
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Man how did you even reach far enough to get israel into this conversation with regards to anything besides the illegal spying we perpetrate with its help?Maybe you're confusing this thread with the one about syria and bombs and poison gas.
May I direct you to the thread in CC entitled "should we bomb syria?"


Very simple, Rocco: I replied to dreed's post where he brings up the IRA, in this thread, a few posts ago. Both the latter, and the governments of Isreal after '48, had highly visible ex-'freedom fighters' in government, people that a short while earlier were doing their best to terminally cancel the opposition.

You might as well ask dreed why he thought the IRA had anything to do with the topic... but such topics as this grow, spread out and that's the only way they can survive the shell of obsession from which they spring and would otherwise remain within. And in the end, they are both the same topic only in separate envelopes.

I still depair at the paucity of female writings in LuLa, though I think I understand it.

;-(

Rob C
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Robert Roaldi
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« Reply #633 on: September 18, 2013, 06:28:17 AM »
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I still depair at the paucity of female writings in LuLa, though I think I understand it.


This is wildly off-topic, but I sort of get why. In my limited experience, women tend to discuss things, not always, but mostly. Sometimes too much. But men are usually just trying to win the argument and are not frequently interested in hearing opinions that differ from their own. It's an alpha male wolf pack thing, I believe, deep in our genes. Challenge is bad, winning is good. It leads to the ludicrous situation where politicians are seen to be weak if they change their minds about something, or when the 3rd generation male buys another Ford.
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Rob C
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« Reply #634 on: September 18, 2013, 08:35:10 AM »
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This is wildly off-topic, but I sort of get why. In my limited experience, women tend to discuss things, not always, but mostly. Sometimes too much. But men are usually just trying to win the argument and are not frequently interested in hearing opinions that differ from their own. It's an alpha male wolf pack thing, I believe, deep in our genes. Challenge is bad, winning is good. It leads to the ludicrous situation where politicians are seen to be weak if they change their minds about something, or when the 3rd generation male buys another Ford.


Nutshell!

Rob C
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Rocco Penny
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« Reply #635 on: September 18, 2013, 08:33:20 PM »
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That there is movement on a pre-emptive pardon of the war criminal class has me in stitches.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/obama-doj-asks-court-to-grant-immunity-to-george-w-bush-for-iraq-war/5346637
That we let them play chicken with our and other's lives, while they sit unscathed sipping whichever pardoner's martini slice they have to hone to stay on top.
These people have become what we used to supposedly deplore in the rest of the world.
That Obama has the nerve to sit up there as he is just now, as we find out more and more about not just the last but the current outlaw administration.
How do you people allow this?
Why aren't there 30 million marchers across america designing a new era?
One that refutes bombing as a means to end sectarian violence.  One that recognizes that the American people will not stand for this aggression.  The government is not welcome to my data.  They may not give it to israel.  They may not share it with the dea or border enforcement or anyone else.
They must stop.
Thank goodness there is some movement on capitol hill to end the worst of it.
Meanwhile the nas says they still are doing it and what's more will not stop unless required to do so.
Time to require them.
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dreed
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« Reply #636 on: September 24, 2013, 03:05:27 PM »
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That Obama has the nerve to sit up there as he is just now, as we find out more and more about not just the last but the current outlaw administration.
How do you people allow this?
Why aren't there 30 million marchers across america designing a new era?

Because for the most part, everyone is getting all of the Bread and Circuses that they desire so they have no reason to change the status quo.
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dreed
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« Reply #637 on: September 30, 2013, 02:22:34 AM »
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" For almost three years the much-discussed US National Security Agency has been tapping the data it collects to map out some Americans’ social connections."

NSA uses data to map Americans' social connections
NSA examines social networks of US citizens
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dreed
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« Reply #638 on: September 30, 2013, 02:34:36 AM »
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"Since 1 January 2003, there have been 12 substantiated instances of intentional misuse of the signals intelligence (SIGINT) authorities of the Director of the National Security Agency."

... that they're willing to admit to.

NSA Surveillance report 11 September 2013
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tom b
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« Reply #639 on: October 01, 2013, 10:14:23 PM »
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Former NSA chief: western intelligence agencies must be more transparent


Cheers,
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