Ad
Ad
Ad
Pages: « 1 2 3 [4]   Bottom of Page
Print
Author Topic: Running HP inks through an Epson printer  (Read 7341 times)
shadowblade
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 689


« Reply #60 on: July 20, 2013, 04:04:30 AM »
ReplyReply

Just to be clear, I offer a standard edition on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Pearl, as well as a metal edition (Imagewizards Aluminarte). I'm working on this for special editions and archival copies.

Anyway, first round of tests:

Printer - R3000 - set to fire 3.5 picolitre droplets only, as this is the minimum size for Epson large-format printers and Roland printers using Epson heads
Ink - MIS Eboni MK (darkest black ink only)

Papers - Canson Rag Photographique (control); Arches Watercolour Hot Press (test). Chosen because they are very similar papers from the same manufacturer, with the main difference being that the Hot Press is uncoated and gelatin-sized, while the Rag Photographic has an inkjet coating. Both are smooth matte papers (I couldn't use the Infinity Aquarelle, as it is a textured paper quite different from the Hot Press).
Target - A 10x10 block of shaded squares, from 100% black to 0% black, all produced by dithering (since the printer is only running one ink)

First phase - Dot gain (started tonight):

Control - Target printed on Canson Rag Photographique, at air temperature 15 degrees Celcius and 55% relative humidity.
Target 1 - Target printed on Arches Watercolour Hot Press, at air temperature 15 degrees Celcius and 55% relative humidity.
Target 2 - Target printed on Arches Watercolour Hot Press, at air temperature 50 degrees Celcius and 30% relative humidity (printer was placed inside a wooden crate and an electric heater was used to heat the air inside the crate to the desired temperature)

Dot gain and Dmax of test prints will be measured once the prints have had 24 hours to dry, to be compared with dot gain of control



Well, first phase results are in. It looks like temperature (and humidity, but temperature is easier to control) has a huge impact on dot gain due to the faster drying time, as predicted by the greatly-increased vapour pressure of water at 50 degrees as opposed to 15 degrees. The inkjet-coated paper showed the least dot gain, but the heated paper wasn't far behind, with the dots still appearing circular and densely-coloured, and not much preferential bleed along the paper's fibres. I believe that a dedicated print heater, as seen on solvent printers, would produce an even better result than this rough-and-ready solution, since the direct application of heat (as it was lost via evaporation) and better ventilation than is available inside a wooden crate, would allow for even faster evaporation.

In contrast, the 'dots' on the unheated, uncoated paper looked like horrible, feathery splotches under the microscope, with the circular dots laid down by the printer turned into tendrils of coloured fibres spreading out from the central point where the initial dot was laid.

On to the next test - to see what sort of Dmax I can achieve on uncoated paper.
Logged
TylerB
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 345


WWW
« Reply #61 on: July 20, 2013, 12:26:18 PM »
ReplyReply

some of us played around with heating and/or ventilating Epsons for the same purposes. I'd just warn you about increasing the potential for clogging heads this way. The combination of paper dust/lint from these kinds of papers coming up on the heads and combining with the ink, as well as an environment that dries that gunk rapidly during the print process, is something to be aware of. As you suggest, the Roland line is more suitable for this kind of printing. The Ashes and Snow prints were made that way, including the heating, work has continued along those lines...
Two papers you might want to check out-
Good old Somerset Velvet Radiant White, still a beautiful paper and surface.
Magnani Revere Polar White, recently introduced, takes ink very well.

Good luck with your work, making beautiful and extraordinary prints is still the goal for some of us just like it was in the darkroom.
Tyler
Logged
Ernst Dinkla
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2806


« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2013, 12:54:50 PM »
ReplyReply

There is probably one rule you should not forget: all the efforts to dry the ink fast to keep dotgain low and Dmax high mean that the pigment ink stays on top and lies bare for abrasion etc like happens with the inkjet paper coatings. Among the non-inkjet papers that perform best you will see that effect happen as well. True the thick coatings that can crack and loose their bond to the paper base are absent (or less thick like some offset papers that can be printed in inkjet) but the surface reamains a weak point.

In the RIT tests you gave the link for I have not seen protection sprays tested or mentioned. For some tests that must have given another result. OBA content was not mentioned either in the ozone and other fading tests. Seen 70% of the so it might have escaped my attention.


--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
Logged
shadowblade
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 689


« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2013, 12:55:44 PM »
ReplyReply

some of us played around with heating and/or ventilating Epsons for the same purposes. I'd just warn you about increasing the potential for clogging heads this way. The combination of paper dust/lint from these kinds of papers coming up on the heads and combining with the ink, as well as an environment that dries that gunk rapidly during the print process, is something to be aware of. As you suggest, the Roland line is more suitable for this kind of printing. The Ashes and Snow prints were made that way, including the heating, work has continued along those lines...

I'm ultimately intending to use a Roland, which is built for heated inks and media. Probably an older-model, second-hand 12-colour Soljet, rather than the newest 16-colour machine - no point paying premium price if I'm just going to tear the printer apart, modify it for ultra-thick media, run nonstandard, aqueous inks through it and use custom RIP software rather than whatever Roland supplies!

How do you heat or ventilate an Epson? Or an HP printer, for that matter (if I'm planning to use Vivera inks anyway)? I'm running the test printer inside a big wooden crate with some heaters, as well as an air conditioner (to dehumidify the air inside), but I can't imagine doing it for a full-sized 44" or larger printer.

Quote
Two papers you might want to check out-
Good old Somerset Velvet Radiant White, still a beautiful paper and surface.
Magnani Revere Polar White, recently introduced, takes ink very well.

The Polar White definitely. I'm not sure about the Somerset Velvet Radiant White, though - the textured surface leads me to think the Dmax and saturation there won't be particularly good. Either way, I'd have to run a few tests to see which one gave me the best saturation, Dmax and definition.
Logged
shadowblade
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 689


« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2013, 01:04:31 PM »
ReplyReply

There is probably one rule you should not forget: all the efforts to dry the ink fast to keep dotgain low and Dmax high mean that the pigment ink stays on top and lies bare for abrasion etc like happens with the inkjet paper coatings. Among the non-inkjet papers that perform best you will see that effect happen as well. True the thick coatings that can crack and loose their bond to the paper base are absent (or less thick like some offset papers that can be printed in inkjet) but the surface reamains a weak point.

I'm planning to use spray protection, such as Hahnemuhle Protective Spray, to minimise the risk of this happening. Will test a few of them to see which one gives me the most Dmax (and possibly gloss).

The 'Ashes and Snow' exhibition, as mentioned before, was made in a similar manner using Cone Piezography inks, and was waxed and finished by hand for surface protection.

Quote
In the RIT tests you gave the link for I have not seen protection sprays tested or mentioned. For some tests that must have given another result. OBA content was not mentioned either in the ozone and other fading tests. Seen 70% of the so it might have escaped my attention.

A micron-thin coat of spray is hardly going to prevent an inkjet receptive layer from cracking under mechanical stress, particularly if it has been rendered brittle by UV light or pollutants. At best, it will slow the effect of UV light and pollutants, and help keep the cracked pieces of the layer on the paper. Better to eliminate the thing that can crack or peel in the first place...

How would OBAs have an impact on the result of ozone or other fading tests? They're certainly not going to slow down the fading - they're just another thing that can fade I guess their only positive in terms of archival stability is their ability to somewhat counteract light-induced bleaching of paper - as the paper ages, it bleaches, but as the OBAs burn out, yellowness increases, somewhat cancelling each other out.
Logged
TylerB
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 345


WWW
« Reply #65 on: July 20, 2013, 01:07:13 PM »
ReplyReply

...
How do you heat or ventilate an Epson? Or an HP printer, for that matter (if I'm planning to use Vivera inks anyway)? I'm running the test printer inside a big wooden crate with some heaters, as well as an air conditioner (to dehumidify the air inside), but I can't imagine doing it for a full-sized 44" or larger printer.

this was long before large format Epsons, or HPs. Stupid experiemental ways like rube goldberg boxer fan attachments or hand holding hair dryers.

...I'm not sure about the Somerset Velvet Radiant White, though - the textured surface leads me to think the Dmax and saturation there won't be particularly good. Either way, I'd have to run a few tests to see which one gave me the best saturation, Dmax and definition.

it was one of the standards for both Iris and Epsons before coated papers were even made, you might be surprised...
back to work.
Logged
TylerB
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 345


WWW
« Reply #66 on: July 20, 2013, 01:10:18 PM »
ReplyReply

by the way, chose your Roland carefully. At some point with the firmware they limited the number of inks you could run at a time, no matter how many carts there are. Sounds like you know who you need to talk to...
Now I really am going back to work
Logged
Ernst Dinkla
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2806


« Reply #67 on: July 20, 2013, 02:38:23 PM »
ReplyReply


How do you heat or ventilate an Epson? Or an HP printer, for that matter (if I'm planning to use Vivera inks anyway)? I'm running the test printer inside a big wooden crate with some heaters, as well as an air conditioner (to dehumidify the air inside), but I can't imagine doing it for a full-sized 44" or larger printer.



Ecosolvent printers can have a heated steel surface where the substrate is in touch with before the print area, after that a similar surface and a strip of ventilators. The first is to open up the surface for a better bond as I understand it, not so much to give a drying effect.

For gloss on matte papers you need far more varnish than protection sprays can offer and then preferably applied in several layers. Even with silkscreen printing you can not create a nice gloss with one coating layer of varnish, UV cured or solvent based.

Considering Iris printers, the best Dmax + longevity was achieved with dye inks on uncoated papers then or with paper with gelatine coatings. Got worse when they started to use porous coated papers. Claria probably is better than any of the dyes of that period including the Ilford Archival dye.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
Logged
Ernst Dinkla
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 2806


« Reply #68 on: July 20, 2013, 04:24:39 PM »
ReplyReply


A micron-thin coat of spray is hardly going to prevent an inkjet receptive layer from cracking under mechanical stress, particularly if it has been rendered brittle by UV light or pollutants. At best, it will slow the effect of UV light and pollutants, and help keep the cracked pieces of the layer on the paper. Better to eliminate the thing that can crack or peel in the first place...

How would OBAs have an impact on the result of ozone or other fading tests? They're certainly not going to slow down the fading - they're just another thing that can fade I guess their only positive in terms of archival stability is their ability to somewhat counteract light-induced bleaching of paper - as the paper ages, it bleaches, but as the OBAs burn out, yellowness increases, somewhat cancelling each other out.

Protection spray reduces gas fading. Might give some protection against abrasion too.

With no information which papers were used, for all categories: analogue, digital, offset, and no indication of their OBA content the differences between print categories get obscured.

Ernst, op de lei getypt.
Logged
shadowblade
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 689


« Reply #69 on: July 20, 2013, 07:29:31 PM »
ReplyReply

by the way, chose your Roland carefully. At some point with the firmware they limited the number of inks you could run at a time, no matter how many carts there are. Sounds like you know who you need to talk to...
Now I really am going back to work

Really? I thought various software solutions and RIPs got around that. Can't imagine they did that after the D'Vinci came out - they even promote that as a '12-colour system' on the Roland website itself!

it was one of the standards for both Iris and Epsons before coated papers were even made, you might be surprised...
back to work.

Really? Might give it a try, then. But maybe it works better with dye inks than pigment...


Ecosolvent printers can have a heated steel surface where the substrate is in touch with before the print area, after that a similar surface and a strip of ventilators. The first is to open up the surface for a better bond as I understand it, not so much to give a drying effect.

That's why I'm planning to use one, instead of using an Epson, HP, etc. You can get a second-hand one in good condition for not much more than a high-end Epson machine. Also, as an industrial-grade machine, I'd imagine it'd be less likely to clog, jam or otherwise fall apart.

Quote
For gloss on matte papers you need far more varnish than protection sprays can offer and then preferably applied in several layers. Even with silkscreen printing you can not create a nice gloss with one coating layer of varnish, UV cured or solvent based.

I was thinking more like six to twelve coats.

Waxing the print also provides a nice, pearlescent sheen, but doesn't offer any UV protection, and the sealing effect is doubtful. Maybe a protective spray, with wax applied on top of it. I'll need to do a few experiments, but that can wait until I get the system running.

Quote
Considering Iris printers, the best Dmax + longevity was achieved with dye inks on uncoated papers then or with paper with gelatine coatings. Got worse when they started to use porous coated papers. Claria probably is better than any of the dyes of that period including the Ilford Archival dye.

Dye inks are somewhat different, though, and even the best current inks for the Iris are only rated at around 75 'Wilhelm years', i.e. around 147 megalux hours to 30% fading (much less than that, in terms of Aardenburg megalux-hours, due to the more stringent criteria).
Logged
shadowblade
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 689


« Reply #70 on: July 20, 2013, 09:59:20 PM »
ReplyReply

Protection spray reduces gas fading. Might give some protection against abrasion too.

With no information which papers were used, for all categories: analogue, digital, offset, and no indication of their OBA content the differences between print categories get obscured.

Ernst, op de lei getypt.

Fading's not really the issue, though. The issue is the embrittlement and ultimate failure of the receptive layer itself, not the pigments trapped within it. So far, it looks like even minimal mechanical stress causes micro-cracks, and ozone, nitrogen dioxide and UV light only accelerate it. No indication as to what happens with light in the visible spectrum or other wavelengths, or even if it just becomes more brittle anyway while lying in the dark protected under glass.
Logged
artobest
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 258


WWW
« Reply #71 on: July 23, 2013, 05:04:12 PM »
ReplyReply



Waxing the print also provides a nice, pearlescent sheen, but doesn't offer any UV protection, and the sealing effect is doubtful. Maybe a protective spray, with wax applied on top of it.


Have you tried waxing a print on matte paper? Nasty, in a word - at least, with coated fine-art papers. Renaissance Wax works great on gloss and semi-gloss surfaces though.
Logged

shadowblade
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 689


« Reply #72 on: July 23, 2013, 05:30:28 PM »
ReplyReply

Have you tried waxing a print on matte paper? Nasty, in a word - at least, with coated fine-art papers. Renaissance Wax works great on gloss and semi-gloss surfaces though.

It works very well on uncoated matte papers. The main issue is printing on them...
Logged
Pages: « 1 2 3 [4]   Top of Page
Print
Jump to:  

Ad
Ad
Ad