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Author Topic: Spyder Print on low OBA papers  (Read 1002 times)
jani80k
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« on: July 11, 2013, 03:30:36 AM »
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Hi,

i am using SpyderPrint for creating ICC profiles for my R3000 with refill inks and it works very well. I have no reason to upgrade to an i1pro2 because OBA can be handled quite well by the Spyder Software, I think. For high OBA papers and for no OBA papers, the workflow is obvious, but now I encountered a special case: low OBA paper. And here is my question.

On high OBA papers, the b-value of the white patch is negative. To compensate for this, I use the checkbox in the white compensation to zero this negative b-value. Furthermore, I check neutral greys. The result is a very good, very usable profile.

On no OBA papers, the b- value is somewhere between 2 and 3 (positive) and I dont need to zero it or check neutral greys to get a good profile.

So far so good. No problems there.

Now I have a paper that contains "low OBA". It is warmtone, but the b-value is somewhere around 1 (positive) so it is a bit lower than than that of the no OBA paper. Examples are Tecco PPM210 or Hanhemühle Photo Matt Fibre 200.

I am wondering how to handle this? Has anybody ever encountered this issue and how did you solve it?

Thanks and regards,
Jani
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digitaldog
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« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2013, 08:20:11 AM »
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I have no reason to upgrade to an i1pro2 because OBA can be handled quite well by the Spyder Software, I think.

How so?

As for low OBA, that should not be an issue. OBA's are an issue in terms of their influence based on the illuminant and how over time they can degrade and affect the print.
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Andrew Rodney
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2013, 03:59:31 PM »
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Hi,

i am using SpyderPrint for creating ICC profiles for my R3000 with refill inks and it works very well. I have no reason to upgrade to an i1pro2 because OBA can be handled quite well by the Spyder Software, I think. For high OBA papers and for no OBA papers, the workflow is obvious, but now I encountered a special case: low OBA paper. And here is my question.

On high OBA papers, the b-value of the white patch is negative. To compensate for this, I use the checkbox in the white compensation to zero this negative b-value. Furthermore, I check neutral greys. The result is a very good, very usable profile.

On no OBA papers, the b- value is somewhere between 2 and 3 (positive) and I dont need to zero it or check neutral greys to get a good profile.

So far so good. No problems there.

Now I have a paper that contains "low OBA". It is warmtone, but the b-value is somewhere around 1 (positive) so it is a bit lower than than that of the no OBA paper. Examples are Tecco PPM210 or Hanhemühle Photo Matt Fibre 200.

I am wondering how to handle this? Has anybody ever encountered this issue and how did you solve it?

Thanks and regards,
Jani

Jani,

Is your estimation of OBA content and b values based on the Spyder colorimeter measurements or on specs of mentioned papers?

Ernst, op de lei getypt.
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jani80k
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2013, 04:20:43 PM »
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Actually, I must correct myself.

I recalibrated the Spyder and now, the values are different. Last night something must have gone wrong when I did the white calibration.

The low OBA paper now also has a negative b-value. I just remeasured it. But it is around -0.5 to -1.

I profiled a paper the other day, that had a b-value of -7. Here it was obvious what to do --> zero b-value and absolute greys.

I am not so sure what to do with the low OBA paper now. I will try and see. It seems that even slight amounts of OBA will result in slightly negative b-values.

The dilemma I am facing is basically this:

For high OBA papers, which appear as bright white to the human eye, it is no problem to set the b-value to zero (paper color is white) and to use neutral greys.

For this low OBA paper that I have it is not as easy because it appears like a warmtone paper to the human eye. So if I zero the b-value, the soft proofing paper color will be off. Furthermore I would like to use the paper greys and not absolute greys but I am not sure if this will work correctly.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2013, 04:50:02 PM »
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I recalibrated the Spyder and now, the values are different. Last night something must have gone wrong when I did the white calibration.

Now that's a scary Spyder <g>
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Andrew Rodney
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2013, 02:25:28 PM »
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Actually, I must correct myself.

I recalibrated the Spyder and now, the values are different. Last night something must have gone wrong when I did the white calibration.

The low OBA paper now also has a negative b-value. I just remeasured it. But it is around -0.5 to -1.

I profiled a paper the other day, that had a b-value of -7. Here it was obvious what to do --> zero b-value and absolute greys.

I am not so sure what to do with the low OBA paper now. I will try and see. It seems that even slight amounts of OBA will result in slightly negative b-values.

The dilemma I am facing is basically this:

For high OBA papers, which appear as bright white to the human eye, it is no problem to set the b-value to zero (paper color is white) and to use neutral greys.

For this low OBA paper that I have it is not as easy because it appears like a warmtone paper to the human eye. So if I zero the b-value, the soft proofing paper color will be off. Furthermore I would like to use the paper greys and not absolute greys but I am not sure if this will work correctly.

A scary Spyder indeed.

Today I measured the Hahnemühle Photo Matt Fibre 200 gsm version and its dual sided version. As I suspected the same papers Innova first introduced as Decor Art IFA24 and IFA25 . The dual sided paper also appeared as Harman by HM Matte Fibre Duo 210 gsm. The spectral plots of 4 clones are in the latest SpectrumViz, AlphaCellulose>Matte Light Textured map.
With an Eye 1 Pro that really measures down to 380 NM wavelength I do not see signs of OBA, not in the spectral plot, not in the Lab numbers that are 97.8 -0.3 1.9 for the Hahnemühle  Photo Matte Fibre 200 gsm.

Like with more meters that do not really measure down to 380 NM the Spyder most likely does an educated guess based on the measurements above 400? 420? NM that there is OBA aboard when the L is as high as it is in this case. Few papers go that high without OBA content. Canson Rag Photographique, also without OBAs, has a similar white reflectance and spectral plot.

So consider it a paper without OBAs and check SpectrumViz in the future if it is unclear whether a paper has OBAs or not.

Edit: Innova's specs say No OBA, Keith Cooper's review of the Innova version says No OBA. Hahnemühle's specs say Low OBA for both the HM and Harman by HM version but Hahnemühle has PhotoRag also in the Low OBA category which actually has a Low OBA content. I put all the papers mentioned here + a sample of Canson Rag Photographique under a UV light and the only one that reflects a brighter blue white is the PhotoRag sample.

I do not have the Tecco one but it would not surprise me if it is the same, there must be a source all the brands get this paper quality from.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
 
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 03:32:57 AM by Ernst Dinkla » Logged
jani80k
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« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2013, 02:45:41 AM »
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Thanks Ernst, for you effort. I will check spectrumviz next time.

Here is the link to the source that says it contains low OBA.

http://www.hahnemuehle.com/media/hahnem_hlephotomattfibre_rev00.pdf

http://www.tecco-photo.de/datenblaetter/6912_PPM225_EN.pdf

In fact, I got hold of an 2007 i1Pro with PMP5 now that was almost never used. With this combination there is no issue anymore as to profiling this paper.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 05:24:34 AM by jani80k » Logged
dieter268
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« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2013, 05:03:19 AM »
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Jani, when you had issues with calibration, did you try to clean the white reference tile and the tip of the measuring device ?
I had issues with calibration on my spyder too, and found out that OBEs from the paper surface where picked up by the measuring device and transfered to the calibration tile.
And the so contaminated tile made problems with calibration.
Since then I use a drop of window cleaner on a paper towel to clean both the tip and the tile after measuring OBE papers, and no problems with calibration since then.
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