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bcooter
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« Reply #40 on: July 15, 2013, 07:59:17 PM »
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Yeah, but Coot, there is a big contradiction there.

I agree totaly with you and Morgan on the path this
Business is going

But can someone explains me then, why we never
Had so many DIT workin just to fix toundtrippin issues
When we are all talking about faster, less crew, more
Dynamic.

because it's really amazing that we still don't have a super gh3
And that we still have to color in an ext app.

It's a one man show but we don't have the tools yet.

Each time i talk about integration, i hear resolve. And
Resolve is great, but it comes from the past workflow.
Is there a Raw standart fully supported? Nope
Between conversions and roundtripping, the one-man-show
As became a nightmare of time black-hole. I mean
People who are working in there are aging like bloody
Politicians. Everybody is chasing a camera that does not exist
Yet, and softwares that are fragmentated and require
This new profession called dit to make all that buzz work
Minimaly.
And the time to send an aaf, open the new app, bla bla
The color grading would almost have been finished with
What we should normaly work with in the new panorama.
Gosh, it just pisses me of why Avid has not bloody updated
DS at Nab instead of more of the same bullshit.

So, are we in the past or in the future? I think we are nowhere
Yet.


The GH3 is close, very close.

The next one if Panasonic doesn't try to keep selling a new P2 could rock it.

In regards to grading, its a mess, I agree.

Why resolve doesn't have sound, even scratch sound, nodes, come on, we own resolve, a board and it's a pain.  It works ok with RED less ok with other formats, needs a dedicated render card and well, it's just old think.

A lightroom with tracking and layers and keying would do it, as long as they connect to some kind of realtime rendering.

A lightroom that would actually round trip to anything, not just adobe (and no I don't think speed grade is the answer).

Look at some of the third party fcpX apps.  If you could combine them all you'd have something, but so far nobody wants to go there and I assume what most people consider captivating color is non green skintones and maybe some exposure adjustment.

In regards to cameras, everybody talks about the blackmagic like they finally found the answer to a cut rate RED or Arri.

I don't think the blackmagic is the answer, super GH3 will do it (also add a 2:1 crop)  and btw: why don't the camera makers (except RED and Arri) have a full blown kit.  Smaller swing away matte boxes, color and grad filters, (built in NDs), carbon rails and camera specific cages, dual channels with adjustable sound controls, some japanese designed zooms that the front element stays in place and the Olympus IS.
How about a radio controlled connection to adjust led lights, a larger left right left snorkel viewfinder (hey how about removeable prismis (I know there is no prism but you know what I mean).

Real HDMI out, real radio SD signal to monitor to cut down on the cords?

Actually, I took a page out of Chris' book and bought that small gitzo fluid head, took all my cameras (except the RED) bought L brackets, quick release clamps, and can slap on a gh3 or OLy in seconds shoot the footage, go vertical or horiz for stills, slap it back to video and not miss a beat.

It's not perfect but that little gitzo head is a real solution.

Thanks Chris.



IMO

BC

« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 08:10:41 PM by bcooter » Logged

Sareesh Sudhakaran
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« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2013, 12:32:01 AM »
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Regarding Resolve with Avid, Scott Freeman just shared this interesting article with me: http://library.creativecow.net/freeman_scott/Editors-Suite_kaufman_Scott-Freeman/1

In his own words:

Quote
"When Blackmagic Design released Resolve, I realized how I could use it to solve my dilemma. Some people might think it's strange for an online editor to use Resolve, but it does much more than color correction so I decided to use it to pull my shots. I had been looking for this solution for a long time. What took me five days now takes me 11 minutes. I dove into using Resolve v.7 in March 2011 on Suits and Covert Affairs and haven't looked back."

Blackmagic Design has repositioned Resolve to not just a color tool, but also as an on-set LUT, dailies and transcoding tool. It can import and work with almost any format natively. And, you can make a few editing changes without going back to your NLE. The major downside is that it needs a lot of computer power. In this respect, Autodesk Smoke 2013 has made giant strides - it can run even on a Macbook Air.

But I'm still sticking to Adobe CC. They have the ability and money to copy or purchase any new advancement or feature a competitor can produce. Who can compete?
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2013, 02:31:38 AM »
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Yes, Resolve is not a simple CC tool and does
All you mentionned. And for that reasons, it's
The best Avid's mate.
And precisely that's where I disagree with the
Philosophy. Roundtrippin is old school imo.

What I'd like to see is all that in a super media
Composer, and this super media composer
Already exists: DS. Better in many aspects
Than Smoke.

 But the problem is that Avid
Defined their politics at NAB.
even if the comin MC 7 will support LUTs, they
Want to promote MC+Resolve, and stop to develop
DS. For some, it's the right decision,for me it's
A step back in the past, even if it's powerfull.

To be honest, I'm asking myself if in the end
Apple had not, once again, been visionary
With fcpx.
I was always surprised with the fact that Chris
Sanderson is givin a lot of credit with fcpx and
I thought that Chris was in fact playin with the
Brand new gadget for awhile and when he get
Tired he would switch to PP. Now, I think that
He is simply a very clever man.


The word I really find frustrating is "close",
Because close, is close but in the end never there.
Coot said that the GH3 is close to be the solution,
Yes, but it also means that it isn't yet. Same with MC,
It's close. The capabilities of this editor is very high
Indeed, even for compo, and really, the missing
Features are little but important "littles".

Recently i had a discussion on the Cow with an Avid
Tech, on the MC politics. The man recognized that
Avid has the tech and engineers to put MC at the
Level of Resolve and even better in all Resolve is
Capable to, and the only reason they don't is politic.

So can we be in a world that is changing and see
The players enhancing past pipelines? In that
Sense, what was the big bad joke of Apple, fcpx,
May in fact be the answer.

About Adobe, of course that they have something,
But we still don't have a "lightroom" style software.
80% of the work we generaly do could be done
In a "lightroom style" software. We don't need
Everyday to remove objects or do heavy compo.
But it looks to me absolutly amazing to have to
Roundtrip to do secondaries, or dailies. I can't
Accept that any longuer.
Adobe simply hidden the exchange files for
A more direct communication with dynamic link,
But it's still old school.
We really need o lightroom or in-design of motion,
Not another speedgrade to cc, and another AE
For the minimum compo task.
IMHO.








« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 03:04:51 AM by fredjeang2 » Logged
Sareesh Sudhakaran
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« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2013, 03:14:47 AM »
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I think FCP-X has one major flaw that does not bode well in the long term - it is Mac only, and tries to resist native editing whenever possible. It's success and adoption is tied to Apple's destiny. However, it is an extremely capable application, which can work with many formats easily.

I was very impressed with Smoke 2013 Extension 1 - supremely capable, but expensive.

I'm currently testing AMC 7, and the old 'broadcast' jargon and methodology still remains. You are right, in that it tries to force a 'conform' based solution when it needn't.

So, the best NLE is....drum roll...Morgan's F5 - if only it could edit, grade and spew money like an ATM machine!
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2013, 03:31:26 AM »
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I also had follow the Smoke 2013 saga, and
It's really cool. Expensive but they cutted the
Price drasticaly. Unfortunatly, not all is great
in wonderland and
My honey moon with Smoke lasted little.
It's sort of weak in CC. If you do a research on that in
The Cow, you'll see the limitations. It's well
documented. DS in that
Aspect is a more robust tool but as they won't
Developp it anymore...

You are right about Apple. Always the same story:
Prores, almost a standart can't be written on
Pc...it's the absurd of the adsurd. They don't
Even give the option for pc users to pay a fee
To have full access.

And...we are just at the beginning of
The biggest mess about to come: raw video.
Because don't think that all manufacturers
Will embrasse DNG, naaaaaaa....
A supposed standart that nobody pushes
Except BM. You'll see the real mess when
We'll have 200 raw video formats that nothing
Reads, like what we have in still land but
Applied to the more complex and demanding
Motion tasks.
Be prepared for the big caos!

It's goin to be RCx for red, PanaCx for the gh, CanonCx
For the canons etc etc...
We'll end with 5 or 6 apps just to read the datas,
Then we'll cut in NLEs that aren't capable to do
Basic secondaries etc etc...
Instead of saving time, we'll be spending more
Time than ever, not cuttin, not coloring, but learning
Softwares, chasing plug-ins and jumping between a
Myriad of applications when what history screems for
Is exactly the opposite: simplification, integration,
Standardization, versatity and universality...

but no,
I'm afraid it won't happen and i do suspect that
The mess we are in today is just the tip of the iceberg.
People will be forced to become DIT first, instead
Of DP, and this is already a tendency.
 
I got a question: how many long hours have we
Already spent on fixing basic roundtripping garbage,
Test this or that in order to get close to an "ideal"
Workflow? How many long nites reading the forums?
Not to work actually, but just to make the machine
in working order...
How many hours spent? Zillions.

I want tools and workflows that give room for
A healphy life; I don't want to be
Married with the monitors.

Someone has to stop this post-prod nonsense.


« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 05:49:35 PM by fredjeang2 » Logged
Peter McLennan
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« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2013, 10:40:06 AM »
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I storyboard, contribute to the script, operate, direct, set the color, look, style edit sometimes to finish.

Holy crap.  I'll bet there was at least one G&T on the train back to London.

Interesting comments on sound.  From bitter experience: sound is more important to get right than picture.  Even more so now that we can "fix it in post" with picture.  Not so much with sound.

"Clients like big cameras"   Heh.  How true.  How disappointing.
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Sareesh Sudhakaran
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« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2013, 09:07:57 PM »
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I want tools and workflows that give room for
A healphy life; I don't want to be
Married with the monitors.

Someone has to stop this post-prod nonsense.

...The FCP-X Love Quote


This might interest you: http://www.fcp.co/final-cut-pro/news/1174-editing-a-real-world-audi-job-in-final-cut-pro-x
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2013, 02:24:11 AM »
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I removed the "love" part just in case of some puritan
Complain Grin

Seriously, thanks for the link. W . ell I don't know if Fcpx
Is the future honestly.
I would have liked a super GH3 and Avid pushing DS
Further.
The super GH3 aint there yet but we'll probably have it,
But on the post-prod side, is indeed where I think that
The real black hole is.

There are 3 possible scenarios.
- big prod, budget and crowd: Avid is workin brilliantly
- "one man show" business model: there is nothing optimum
- and then, something in the middle: maybe smoke,
Adobe suite

And then, this weired fcpx. I'm not far to flip my thoughts
On this software 180 grades.
I don't like Apple politics of the recent years. But...
They may be once again visionary.
On today's panorama, fcpx seems to be the only app
That looks to the future and not the past.

Maybe Chris interest to give it a chance regardless
Of the bad reputation was a clever position.

What's sure, is that Morgan business model is going
To be the norm in a close future, for 80% of the work
Produced. What i see disapear is the middle term.
Imo, we are going to see 2 business models.
One like Morgan: very reduce team, cost efective,
And directly big budget prods.
If on the last one, tools already exist and work
There is something to be done for the first one
Both in capture and post.


we need small cameras that can deliver Alexa files
That allow direct workflow and can br operated
By one guy (nd, af etc...) and software
Fast, intuitive, and capable of covering 80% of the
Tasks without any sort of roundtripping.
 
Any brand that brings that on the table will rule
80% of this industry.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 02:39:54 AM by fredjeang2 » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #48 on: July 17, 2013, 02:45:24 AM »
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4k, 2k 4:2:0 to 4:4:4, 8 bit, 10 bit 14 bit, 100mbs, or 30, Intra, progressive, interlaced, MPG 2, 4, h264, Pro REZ DPX. whew?

The ONLY thing that matters is what you shoot looks good, hopefully damn good.


It is clear that the F5 (which this thread is about!) looks good shooting 4k raw.

But is it the ONLY thing that matters?

Going down a 4k raw model arriving on set (prepared to roll 3hours in the day without a dump) you might need 1.5TB of cards (cost $6000)
You are then going to have a 3TB backup (cost $200+DIT dumping time) before you make/record any proxies or enter the edit, so lets call that 4TB

(sony shoots a nice 3:1 compression)

And that is why I think sony are on to something with XABCDEFG codec because if you can cut the data load then its got to be good.

With the FS100 if the light is 5200 and you shoot at 5000 the shot is gone. With raw if you shoot at 2000 and the light is 8000k the shot is great.

IMO a raw lite is needed where you must set the camera to +/- 2000k and +/- 1 stop - IMO it is hard to get closer than that without 'the machine'

That raw lite needs to be 1/4 the data of raw and can be 8X the data of the FS100 - I guess that might be the XABCDEF codec - and it is worth checking out!

S








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fredjeang2
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« Reply #49 on: July 17, 2013, 03:41:37 AM »
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Avid editors, we were warned about
Issues and crashes with the Sony codec,
and for what i'm seeing, everybody
Is converting to Prores or Dnx
Wich is a pain in the ass. (and not only
Avid editors) and nothing new under
The sun.
Mmmm....
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« Reply #50 on: July 17, 2013, 03:48:50 AM »
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Avid editors, we were warned about
Issues and crashes with the Sony codec,
...


I agree. Loading XAVC crashed my AMC 7 system. There is no plug-in for it, so I'm not sure whether somebody in Avid forgot to do that....because it's in the manual. Still testing.
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« Reply #51 on: July 17, 2013, 04:01:59 AM »
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Not only Avid's editors apparently.
It seems that everybody prefers
Trascoding to Prores because of stability.

At least, this codec is open, unlike Prores.
And true that it has a lot of goodies
But implementation seems to require
More time.

Correct me if i'm wrong but, for 16 bits raw
The "machine" as Morgan says is needed no?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 04:07:05 AM by fredjeang2 » Logged
Morgan_Moore
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« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2013, 05:10:02 AM »
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I take a slightly different view on raw processing - coming from stills

90% of cases Id do it like this..

raw viewer
corrections
export to prorezz
sleep
edit

Which does not seem to be too intensive on a machine.

--
In stills after my corrections I some times pick tricky (wide DR) shots and export those few shots again dark, I then merge the images in photoshop

Sounds whacky but works for me

So Im not actually banking on raw footy I can playback/edit

I completely agree that a proper workflow is better!

S


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bcooter
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« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2013, 12:19:46 PM »
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The "machine" as Morgan says is needed no?

How do you get away from a machine? 

We carry 4 powerbooks, just for imaging and that's just for quick dailies and transcoding, even before we get back to the studio.

I'm damn picky about setting up monitors and cameras before hand (learned the hard way) and even then a file always needs attention, raw or baked in?

IMO

BC

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bcooter
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« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2013, 12:28:22 PM »
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"Clients like big cameras"   Heh.  How true.  How disappointing.

First off I should make it clear that I don't think my way is the best way, I just think today it's the best way for me.

I have belief that if you learn something you not only use it, but you

I have good clients, I have some great clients and even the great clients appreciate investment in their project.

I don't understand 100% how a client thinks but probably 60% and putting myself in their shoes, I guess I could buy a Porsche in a alley, or in a dealership but all things being equal, I'd rather buy in a nice dealership.

So yes, they appreciate big cameras, but in a week after you shoot, they forget about it and they appreciate more the results (or at least that's the plan).

Does the camera make me or anyone better . . . yes, but only in the fact that once I invest in something, especially something expensive I think I try harder to use the damn thing and not feel guilty.

Now in regards to wearing more hats.  Some think it's stupid, some admire it, me, I just do it cause I know how to do it and I like it.

I like editing, or at least setting the style and rythm of the cut, I like having input on the script and score.   

If your emersed in the story, know the edit and your working fast, you can build the story and at least have enough footage to work, without doing triage at the end of the shoot.

For a still photographer moving to motion, the first thing I realized is making it pretty doesn't always cut it.  Like they say in Hollywood, it's the story, it's the story, it's the story and rarely do you have a unique story.''

The more  you learn, the more you do, the more you know the story, the better you shoot.

Everybody's different, but I like being involved in the whole chain.

IMO

BC
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2013, 02:11:12 PM »
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How do you get away from a machine?  

We carry 4 powerbooks, just for imaging and that's just for quick dailies and transcoding, even before we get back to the studio.

I'm damn picky about setting up monitors and cameras before hand (learned the hard way) and even then a file always needs attention, raw or baked in?

IMO

BC



I was not refering to this James,
Sorry if my post was confusing.

I was asking if the raw capture on the Sony was
Only possible with an external device,
It was in fact a question on how Sony implemented it.

« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 04:37:34 PM by fredjeang2 » Logged
Sareesh Sudhakaran
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« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2013, 11:40:14 PM »
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I was asking if the raw capture on the Sony was
Only possible with an external device,
It was in fact a question on how Sony implemented it.


Yes, for RAW you need the external recorder. On both F5 and F55. Same applies for the C500.

The 4K RAW footage from the F55 looks brilliant, similar to the Alexa - which is probably why Arri is making noises about a 4K Alexa in the works. Whether one likes it or not, 4K is going to be thrust upon the masses.
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« Reply #57 on: July 18, 2013, 02:47:58 AM »
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There are two options - the sony recorder which clips on the back really neatly just making a bigger camera

the second is the odyseyy which seems that sony somewhat hobble in what the camera will put out to it.

also the ody is a spaghetti junction of cables

Ill get the sony when funds allow.
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« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2013, 12:36:28 PM »
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Watch with a pinch of salt. He doesn't know resolve for shXt

https://vimeo.com/70783510
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Sareesh Sudhakaran
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« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2013, 03:01:45 AM »
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But he knows his Sony!
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