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Author Topic: Economic Crisis  (Read 7689 times)
RSL
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« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2013, 12:07:22 PM »
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Alan, my son's not the only one. I talk to plenty of local businesspeople. I was mayor of my city for six years and on the council for two years before that, and I know a lot of local people who are in business. A whole bunch of them are backing off because of Obamacare. I think the uncertainty is the main problem. Nobody has a clue what's going to happen next.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2013, 02:33:19 PM »
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... I think the uncertainty is the main problem. Nobody has a clue what's going to happen next.

"It's hard to make predictions - especially about the future."
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Slobodan

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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2013, 03:15:40 PM »
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with the national defense establishment
military industrial complex, people who used to spend the money
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #43 on: July 24, 2013, 03:19:26 PM »
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They all have decent wages.

in a call center :-)... so what do you call a decent wage ? I guess the decent wage is when one wage earner (spouse not working) can afford to send > 1 kid to 4 years state (not private) college w/o any loans/grants... that is a decent wage in a greatest country, isn't it ? so do they earn that much ?
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #44 on: July 24, 2013, 03:29:19 PM »
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Some things are not all good, nor all bad. I certainly hope there are shades of grey in your BW photos, SLOBO!   Cheesy

Not sure what you point is (in relation to what you quoted)?
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Slobodan

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RSL
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« Reply #45 on: July 24, 2013, 03:42:16 PM »
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military industrial complex, people who used to spend the money

Vlad, I'm sure you'd find Russia a lot more congenial than the U.S. You haven't deigned to tell us where you're located but it sounds as if you're right here in the U.S. Surely relocating to Russia would make you more comfortable. After all, in Russia everybody earns a decent wage, and the political establishment doesn't suffer from the same shortcomings Slobodan's listed: "incompetent, corruptible, mistake-prone, wasteful, malevolent." In Russia it's all sweetness and light, no?
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #46 on: July 24, 2013, 03:51:18 PM »
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Vlad, I'm sure you'd find Russia a lot more congenial than the U.S.

nobody compares... we are talking about the greatest ever democracy here  Wink

so you think it is OK for taxpayers to fund your medical, but it is not OK for your son go provide a rudimentary medical insurance for his employees ?

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RSL
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« Reply #47 on: July 24, 2013, 04:00:10 PM »
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If my son goes out of business those employees will be screwed. There aren't many jobs like that in this area. They won't have jobs, they won't have wages, and they won't have medical benefits. I guess that in your estimation it would be a lot better to be unemployed at a high wage than to be employed at a lower wage.

And you didn't answer my question. Isn't Russia a lot better than the U.S.? Aren't the wages higher? Aren't the medical benefits better? Of course they don't do nasty things like communications traffic analysis, or put people who spy on them in jail. Right?
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Robert Roaldi
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« Reply #48 on: July 24, 2013, 09:27:19 PM »
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If my son goes out of business those employees will be screwed. There aren't many jobs like that in this area. They won't have jobs, they won't have wages, and they won't have medical benefits. I guess that in your estimation it would be a lot better to be unemployed at a high wage than to be employed at a lower wage.

And you didn't answer my question. Isn't Russia a lot better than the U.S.? Aren't the wages higher? Aren't the medical benefits better? Of course they don't do nasty things like communications traffic analysis, or put people who spy on them in jail. Right?

You should be a little careful about the wording. It almost sounds as if you think your son is doing those employees a favour, whereas they're actually generating his profit. Employees make money for companies, they don't cost money.
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Robert
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« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2013, 07:12:58 AM »
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You should be a little careful about the wording. It almost sounds as if you think your son is doing those employees a favour, whereas they're actually generating his profit. Employees make money for companies, they don't cost money.

Who had the vision and idea for the business? Who had the balls and took the risks to actually start a business? Who takes the legal and financial risk every day to stay in business? Now that there is a business that's providing jobs for workers (and hopefully a profit for the entrepreneur) it's just wrong to position either party as doing any "favours" for anyone. Good business is about partnership.
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Robert Roaldi
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« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2013, 07:49:40 AM »
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Who had the vision and idea for the business? Who had the balls and took the risks to actually start a business? Who takes the legal and financial risk every day to stay in business? Now that there is a business that's providing jobs for workers (and hopefully a profit for the entrepreneur) it's just wrong to position either party as doing any "favours" for anyone. Good business is about partnership.

Yes, of course. And that's why the owner/principal/partner receives greater rewards than his employees. That's as it should be, I never implied otherwise. I just meant to emphasize that employees are assets, not liabilities (mostly), it's easy to forget that.

As an aside, we should take care to not only view the world through the lens of a owner/entrepreneur who starts/runs a successful hands-on business. That's probably the model for self-employed photographers, so there may be a bias towards that view of the world in this forum. I don't think it's entirely correct to project that model onto how large corporations work. It's not the same thing.
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« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2013, 07:54:41 AM »
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Yes, of course. And that's why the owner/principal/partner receives greater rewards than his employees. That's as it should be, I never implied otherwise. I just meant to emphasize that employees are assets, not liabilities (mostly), it's easy to forget that.

+1.   Cool
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RSL
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« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2013, 09:53:24 AM »
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Glad that's cleared up, Mezzo. And by the way, there are plenty of situations, especially at the moment, where the employer who took all the risks doesn't receive greater rewards than his employees. Of course that can't go on for long or the business fails and nobody receives any rewards. At the moment large corporations in general are doing fine; it's small business that's in trouble, and it's small business that hires most of the employees. It's small business that makes the U.S. strong, and with Obamacare coming on, that strength is slipping.
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Isaac
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« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2013, 11:47:26 AM »
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it's small business that hires most of the employees

For some definition of "small business" ;-)


"The majority of all business establishments in the United States are nonemployers , yet these firms average less than 4 percent of all sales and receipts nationally."

"The Census Bureau does not define small or large business, but provides statistics that allow users to define business categories in any of several ways"
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2013, 12:25:05 PM »
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And you didn't answer my question. Isn't Russia a lot better than the U.S.?

what that has to do w/ your son paying low wages and not providing any health insurance for his employees ? did I use Russia as an example anywhere here ? I understand that it is better to talk about bad Russia and not about you good son  Grin ... but let us stay on the original question.

Aren't the wages higher?

no, neither is cost of living or cost of private medical insurance... but it is a poorer country and naturally people make less... did I say otherwise anywhere ? what I said is that I expect the greatest country to be better, way better for humans... but I guess you and your son do no consider those employees as such  Roll Eyes
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2013, 12:29:23 PM »
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where the employer who took all the risks
I do not think you son setup his operation to expose his personal wealth to any liabilities, it is a corporation or LLC at least...
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2013, 02:12:13 PM »
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When I was running our IT consultancy, we provided all our employees with medical coverage, and not only that, we covered 100% of the premium, something even most corporations do not do. Yes, we were forced to close the business, but not because of high wages, or health premiums, but because of no new projects (thank you, the Great Recession). If you can't provide a decent compensation to your employees (and yes, that includes decent benefits, including medical) you are in the wrong business.

Everybody and his mother would be a successful entrepreneur if they could treat their workers as slaves, herd them into company dormitories, wake them up at midnight with a whistle, give them a cup of tea and a biscuit and ask them to work next 14 hours on it, in unsafe factories, exposed to unsafe material. When that is not enough, hire their children, they are even cheaper. And along the way remind them that "low wage is better than no wage." While your company amasses historic, record-breaking profits and cash reserves.
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Slobodan

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RSL
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« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2013, 03:06:19 PM »
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... but it is a poorer country and naturally people make less...

Any idea why that's true, Vlad? At the end of WW II, Russia was devastated but so was Western Europe, especially Germany. Care to check out the difference now and speculate on the causes?
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RSL
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« Reply #58 on: July 25, 2013, 03:14:27 PM »
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I do not think you son setup his operation to expose his personal wealth to any liabilities, it is a corporation or LLC at least...

Vlad, all that statement does is make it clear you don't understand what it takes to set up a small corporation in the U.S. Financing requires personal, individual collateral.

Oh, and by the way, Slobodan, did I say they don't provide medical coverage? You assumed that. The difference and the crunch is the kind and cost of medical care demanded by Obamacare. Once you have a job again, Slobodan, under Obomacare you'll have coverage for pregnancy and also for abortion.
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Slobodan Blagojevic
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« Reply #59 on: July 25, 2013, 03:24:16 PM »
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Any idea why that's true, Vlad? At the end of WW II, Russia was devastated but so was Western Europe, especially Germany. Care to check out the difference now and speculate on the causes?

Hmmm... let me see... huge infusion of capital (Marshall Plan) in order to make it a display of the West advantage and "in order to prevent the spread of Soviet Communism" (per Wikipedia)?
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Slobodan

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