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Author Topic: IQ180 to IQ260. Who's done it? Thoughts?  (Read 4178 times)
gerald.d
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« on: July 17, 2013, 08:34:04 AM »
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Hi all -

I appreciate that ultimately this all comes down to personal and subjective requirements and perspectives, but I'm sure there are a few out there who have done this, and am just wondering what your thoughts were having made the change, and whether you're missing those extra 20 megapixels.

Kind regards,

Gerald.
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Grischa Rueschendorf
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« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2013, 09:15:13 AM »
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Gerald
I have just done this.
We both live in a hot climate and use tech cams.
While its too early to give a final round up  I had the following thoughts in favour of switching:

- first and foremost cleaner files on exposures around 30 seconds. That has been an issue for me. I live in a hot climate. At 35 ISO the 180 is great but it extends exposure easily to 30 seconds for what I am doing. Like me you got a 32 HR when using the centre filter you get to at least double your exposure then you got the black frame to wait for and if you shoot an LCC you end up with minutes of exposure that heats up the back. Forget stitching shots in twilight it's just taking too long. Now let's translate that into the 160 ISO and you end up with a fraction of exposure time to end up with clean files.
That to me was the main reason

- iPad wifi functionality has been initially my main reason to consider the switch from 180 to 280 but i realized that the above was really a very important issue that helped me to justify the switch. The iPad feature works and I use it mainly for my interior work where I don't want to teather. It really speeds up working and it works as advertised.

- lastly : the 260 is a tiny bit wider , I took 2 shots with the 260 and the 180 and the fraction of a mm actually makes a difference in the final shot where you want to stay as wide as possible without having to switch the lens or stitch

- downsides : the main downside is obviously smaller files. I work on custom produced books for clients and it's nice for the designers to be able to have the ability to create gate folds without having planned for it beforehand .ihave not yet to have been in this dilemma but IMHO a great selling point for the 180 has always been sensor plus at 20 MP that's often enough a perfect size for editorial clients and I enjoyed at faster work flow .

That's my 2 cents on the subject but again this switch is relatively new still.

Grischa
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gerald.d
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« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2013, 12:23:18 PM »
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Thanks Grischa -

Much appreciate the input.

What are your thoughts on how the IQ260 at 140 ISO compares to the IQ180 at 35 ISO?

Kind regards,

Gerald.
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MNG
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« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2013, 07:32:46 PM »
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Hi Grischa and Gerald,

I am considering doing the same - going from a 80Mp back to the 260.

Are you finding the 260 using more battery power and what did you pay for the down-grade?

Thank you
Michael
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Grischa Rueschendorf
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« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2013, 03:13:17 AM »
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Michael,
there is no downgrade path I know of that Phase offers Personally I think its a disgrace to have your "premium customers" locked into only being able to "upgrade" (as they call it) to the 280. I live in HKG and my dealer here has not sold a single 280 unit. The 260 is what sells.
I sold my whole kit with Phase One DF and 80mm lens plus IQ180 to China, there is a steep sales tax there unlike in HKG so its easy to sell to mainland Chinese buyers.

Battery life is the same or could be even better given the smaller files sizes. BUT when using the Wifi options the batteries need to be replaced more often. I'd say it halves battery life when wifi is on.

Gerald,
I only had both back for a couple of days. My initial observations are: at 50 (on the 260) and 35 (on the 180 ) no discernible difference. I always loved the 180 files shots on 35ISO but I cannot tell the difference in dynamic range or lack of noise when comparing both files shots at short exposure times.
where the 260 shows its superiority is a exposures over 5 seconds . mind you I live in Hong Kong and ambient temperatures are fairly high so noise creeped in even a exposures under 30 seconds especially when being outdoors and shooting uninterrupted like during twilight.

One more things I noticed Gerald, though already much reported one more advantage of the 260 for tech cam users is the fact that shifted shots needs much less LCC work in C1, even on the Rodenstock lenses. I often shift the 32 or 40 HR to its limits of around 16mm and the 260 is much more forgiving when it comes to colour cast issues.

Hope this helps
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gerald.d
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« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2013, 12:40:59 PM »
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OK. Just for some closure on this, because I think people may find it interesting.

I'm sticking with my IQ180.

Why? Well, quite simply because after waiting almost 4 MONTHS for a final response from Phase One as to what the cost would be to move from IQ180 to IQ260, I'm told it's the same price as moving from IQ180 to IQ280, and no budging.

Remember. The IQ260 retail price is $7000 lower than the IQ280, yet they still expect me to pay the same amount to up/cross/downgrade from an IQ180. Also remember this - the IQ180 retails for more than the IQ260, so I'd love for someone to explain how it's a downgrade.

I can't wait for a dealer to chip in and explain how this makes sense. But trust me, from a customer perspective, it does not. If you even think of trying to rationalise this, step away from the keyboard.

I love my IQ180. I was hoping to move to the IQ260 for a special project I've got lined up (that, by the way, would have generated a huge amount of publicity for Phase One), and also more generally for the long exposure capability which would come in handy for maybe around 25% of the shots I typically take.

As it is, I'm scrapping that project and moving on. For the long exposure stuff, I'll do what I can with the 180, and just work within its constraints.

And by the way, before someone quips about Maseratis, this is not about a lack of money. The money will be spent on other camera stuff.

It's about the principle.

It will be interesting to see how those who bought into the top of the range IQ1XX series are treated next time there's a new range of backs launched.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2013, 01:35:21 PM »
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Why? Well, quite simply because after waiting almost 4 MONTHS for a final response from Phase One as to what the cost would be to move from IQ180 to IQ260, I'm told it's the same price as moving from IQ180 to IQ280, and no budging.
[...]
I can't wait for a dealer to chip in and explain how this makes sense. But trust me, from a customer perspective, it does not. If you even think of trying to rationalise this, step away from the keyboard.

I can't wait for a dealer to chip in and explain how this makes sense. But trust me, from a customer perspective, it does not. If you even think of trying to rationalise this, step away from the keyboard.

In contrast to this, many of our long term clients (see this blog from one such client) have done this upgrade through us; none of them paid what you've indicated here. None waited more than a day or two for a response on what we could do for them. We found creative ways to move outside of the box of the official upgrade options Phase One provided.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2013, 08:34:50 AM by Doug Peterson » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
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Phase One IQ250 FAQ
kdphotography
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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2013, 01:38:27 PM »
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Wow--if that's the official line from Phase One, that does suck.  It doesn't make sense!

Hope a dealer can step up to the plate and offer you an IQ180 to IQ260 solution that does make sense, both common sense and financial sense.

ken
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MrSmith
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« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2013, 01:46:27 PM »
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You shouldn't have to build a relationship with a dealer though.
 I don't want to play golf with them or look at their holiday snaps and make small talk, I just want the price.
 I don't want to have to go round the houses to find out how much it's going to cost me.

Maybe it's part of sustaining a myth? A tap of the nose, a wink and and the coiled rope with the fake gold plated ends gets unclpped and with great ceremony the dealer ushers you into the VIP suite and furnishes you with a leather folder just like the one they use to present a bill in a 3 star Michelin restaurant.

Can't you just mail me a PDF?
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JoeKitchen
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« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2013, 01:54:23 PM »
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You shouldn't have to build a relationship with a dealer though.
 I don't want to play golf with them or look at their holiday snaps and make small talk, I just want the price.
 I don't want to have to go round the houses to find out how much it's going to cost me.

Maybe it's part of sustaining a myth? A tap of the nose, a wink and and the coiled rope with the fake gold plated ends gets unclpped and with great ceremony the dealer ushers you into the VIP suite and furnishes you with a leather folder just like the one they use to present a bill in a 3 star Michelin restaurant.

Can't you just mail me a PDF?

This is total backward thinking.  Would be willing to give out a great price to someone whom you never worked with or someone whom you have worked with and is a total pain in the a$$.  I wouldn't.  

But for a client I have a relationship who is friendly and just so happens to have a tight budget on this project, why not.  
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2013, 02:06:29 PM »
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You shouldn't have to build a relationship with a dealer though.
 I don't want to play golf with them or look at their holiday snaps and make small talk, I just want the price.
 I don't want to have to go round the houses to find out how much it's going to cost me.

Maybe it's part of sustaining a myth? A tap of the nose, a wink and and the coiled rope with the fake gold plated ends gets unclpped and with great ceremony the dealer ushers you into the VIP suite and furnishes you with a leather folder just like the one they use to present a bill in a 3 star Michelin restaurant.

Can't you just mail me a PDF?

No need for small talk, and please no winks. When I say "relationship" I don't mean we have to date. Although I do consider several of our customers to be friends, a "relationship" in this context can be as simple as a history of mutual respect of time and polite and professional communication.

It's not a secret club; it's just good business.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 02:15:04 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
MrSmith
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« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2013, 02:36:45 PM »
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Fair comment.
I wish U.K. Dealers would give the 'real' price on their websites though.
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jsiva
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« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2013, 07:38:11 PM »
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The upgrade policy on the IQ180 is silly.  Even more so when you compare upgrade pricing to P65+.  I have a great relationship with my dealer, and whilst I got a response right away, the pricing is not much different to what you have stated here.

This was no different when the Credo line was introduced and I tried to upgrade my Aptus II 12 to a Credo 80.  Just did not make any sense. 

I decided to keep my IQ180, which is a great back, and WIFI is not worth the upgrade cost for me.  I did end up purchasing an IQ260 Achromatic, and the experience has been less than stellar.  The file quality is simply stunning.  Resolution is better than my IQ180, and detail in highlights, especially, the specular ones in reflections is beautiful.  However, some minor details like lack of live view were left out in the PR material.  You'd think this would be somewhat important given that this was positioned as a key differentiator with both IQ series backs. 

At this point, I am still on the fence on whether I keep the back or return it.  I had big plans for it, but without live view, my planned workflow is in shambles, especially off the visible spectrum.  On principle alone, I am not keen on dishing out this kind of coin just to hear someone say, "oops" sorry we missed that.

The customer experience with MF is a key element for spending this kind of money, and I think Phase needs to pay closer attention to this.  They have a great dealer network, but this will only go so far.  Bottom line always is value, and right now, the value equation is a little off balance.

Do I have an axe to grind, yes, after my latest purchase, I certainly do.
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gerald.d
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« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2013, 10:16:44 PM »
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You've made it very clear on a variety of occasions you do not value dealers and do not wish to build a relationship with one.
Don't you dare accuse me of things that you have no knowledge of whatsoever.

I've been working through my dealer on this for the last 4 months.

And let me just add - that dealer received an order (in their first month of picking up the account) from a customer here for an IQ180, Phase One DF, and EVERY lens Phase One offer. That was off the back of a demo that I gave to the customer. All the dealer had to do was deliver the goods and pick up the check.

And let me also add.

3 meetings, half a dozen phone calls, and god only knows how many emails.

Do you want to see all that Doug? Do I have to provide YOU with the evidence that all the communications were cordial and in good faith, because YOU'VE made a judgement on my "relationship" with the dealer from a background of zero knowledge whatsoever?

Frankly, I couldn't care less what your opinion was. Keep it to yourself.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 10:25:49 PM by gerald.d » Logged
Grischa Rueschendorf
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« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2013, 10:23:21 PM »
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I finally pulled the trigger and traded my 180 to a 260 but only by having my Phase dealer help me to find a buyer for it. I was appaled by the official "trade up or cross grade" policy .
As a 160 owner you can " cross grade" to a 260 and" upgrade " to a 280 but as a 180 owner you can only " cross grade" to 280 moving to a 260 would be considered a downgrade in their eyes and therefore it's not offered.
I mean that such a bunch of crap. Why would you treat your premium customers like that and what about having choices? The 260 is truly unique in their line up of back as it offeres long exposure so why not offering a cross grade path . I was seriously appaled by that policy. So much for investment protection.
In any case I lost money in the deal but I am nevertheless happy  because i believe the 260 will hold more resale value than the 180 and when it comes to the next generation of back I got 2 options to upgrade :-)
Grischa
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gerald.d
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« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2013, 11:25:42 PM »
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I finally pulled the trigger and traded my 180 to a 260 but only by having my Phase dealer help me to find a buyer for it. I was appaled by the official "trade up or cross grade" policy .
As a 160 owner you can " cross grade" to a 260 and" upgrade " to a 280 but as a 180 owner you can only " cross grade" to 280 moving to a 260 would be considered a downgrade in their eyes and therefore it's not offered.
I mean that such a bunch of crap. Why would you treat your premium customers like that and what about having choices? The 260 is truly unique in their line up of back as it offeres long exposure so why not offering a cross grade path . I was seriously appaled by that policy. So much for investment protection.
In any case I lost money in the deal but I am nevertheless happy  because i believe the 260 will hold more resale value than the 180 and when it comes to the next generation of back I got 2 options to upgrade :-)
Grischa

It really is utterly bonkers. Especially considering that even after the recent price reduction following the introduction of the IQ2 series, the retail list price of the IQ180 remains higher than that for the IQ260.

The concept of an "upgrade" to a less expensive product. Mind-boggling.

I'm going to share the numbers and background here just so that everything is out in the open. People can then come to their own conclusions based on the facts, rather than libelous accusations about my character and attitude towards my dealer from someone half-way across the planet.

I was after a 260 to reshoot this timelapse:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpvmnGD787k

That was shot with a Canon 5D Mk II and the 14mm lens.

The original upload of that video was just a static wide-framed shot. It got around a million views on YouTube in the first couple of weeks, but I then decided to pull it because it was getting ripped off left right and center.

A few months ago, I decided to re-visit the timelapse and use it to try to learn about key-framing in After Effects. Relatively pleased with the result, I decided to upload the new version. Surprise surprise, 400k views in the first couple of weeks.

So people find this stuff interesting and it gets reasonable exposure.

Thing is, the original timelapse was only shot in medium resolution RAW, so it's kinda limited for panning and zooming around.

Then as I investigated options further, I discovered some neat software called Panolapse, and started looking into using the Mamiya 24mm fisheye. On the IQ180 with this combo, I can recreate anything from a 13mm up to 60mm lens FF DSLR equivalent FoV at 4K resolution.

Perfect. Except the IQ180 would be useless for the night-time section. IQ260 could do it though as long as I can get clean(ish) files at 400 ISO. I'd suffer a slight drop in resolution, but I could accept that.

So. I've got a project worked out and lined up, and am interested in what Phase One can offer me for a downgrade to the IQ260.

The official cross-grade price from IQ180 to IQ280 in this region was 10000 Euros ($13250).

I've been going back through my emails.

May 19th - reminder following a meeting that I'm waiting for a price on 180>260
May 29th - gentle nudge to see if there was any news since I'd not heard anything back
May 30th - reply. Not heard anything back from Phase One yet.
June 20th - query from me as to whether any news, since no communication since May 30th
June 23rd - dealer has spoken with Denmark. In principle, Phase One are interested in helping in return for some PR opportunities. Support could be lending a back for the project, or "offering a special price for the upgrade so you can move up to the IQ260".
June 23rd - my reply to dealer - yes, PR opportunity is possible. I remind dealer about the massive publicity generated by this - http://gizmodo.com/5979456/the-first-panorama-from-the-pinnacle-of-the-highest-building-in-the-world , which was shot with the IQ180.
July 4th. We meet to discuss.
July 8th - I ask if there's any news on cost for 180>260
July 17th - I ask again if there's any news (no comms since July 8th on this subject)
July 17th - Dealer says they've spoken with Copenhagen, who suggest the following solution:

Wait for it, because this is just brilliant.

Point 1:
"The upgrade offer from IQ180 to IQ280 for 10,000 was a limited offer valid till 30.06.2013, and they have not really offered the IQ180 to IQ260 upgrade generally."

Fabulous - Phase One are pointing out to me that the upgrade offer was limited only until 30th June! This went down well with me, I can assure you.

Point 2:
"The suggestion is to leave the upgrade price of 10,000 allowing to upgrade from IQ180 to IQ260, and then on top of that to add a Value Added Pack free of charge in return for using the images from the time lapse for marketing purposes (not exclusive) ."

And there we have it. After all this time - the first mention of a price. They are "suggesting" to have the upgrade price the same as that for the 180 to the 280. They'll throw in the value added pack in exchange for marketing (that bit is fine - I'm happy with that).

July 17th - I reply saying "Thanks for the update. I have to admit I was hoping for a better deal than that. Can the price be looked at again? If it were USD 10k (still including the value added warranty), it would be an easier decision."

See - that apparently is the words of someone who Doug thinks he can judge as being a guy who does not wish to build a relationship with a dealer, and who has made it very clear on a variety of occasions that they don't value dealers.

Christ. I really am such a terrible customer to have to deal with. I've waited 2 months for an answer, and my response is clearly so rude!

July 24th - Not heard anything yet, send another email.
"I would just like to take this opportunity to highlight the following -

I respect that you mention the initial upgrade period has now passed, but feel that I should highlight I have been waiting for an answer on the possibility of doing this up/cross-grade since my mail to you on May 19th.

It's not really my fault that it has taken two months to get a reply. It does seem to take an extra-ordinary amount of time to get answers out of Phase One.

Therefore, with regards the suggested price, I really don't feel the fact that the 180-280 offer was only valid until 30/6 is very relevant.

Effectively, I see Phase One's offer to me is this:
Pay the same price for a 180-260 upgrade as we were charging for the 180-280. This is despite the fact that the list price of the IQ280 is $44,000, and the IQ260 is $37,000. That's a $7K difference.
We'll throw in the VAW in exchange for publicity
Frankly, I don't think that's a realistic expectation on their part, and I really would appreciate a response to the below."

Now look, at this point I'm starting to get a little peeved. I'll admit that. But I think my communication is still pretty cordial, all things considered. I mean - I do realise as Doug has pointed out in this thread - that if you want anything out of a dealer, you have to be really really nice to them and not hurt their feelings. I mean, you're trying to establish a "relationship" with them. It's not so simple that it's like you're the customer with the money, and they're the people who hold the keys to the goodies.

No. You have to build a relationship.


July 31st - Dealer replies. He's visiting Copenhagen on August 1st and will raise it directly with Phase One.
August 6th - Email from me. Any news?

Earlier this week. Phone call from dealer - no budging on the offer.

/rant over.

« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 11:41:45 PM by gerald.d » Logged
MrSmith
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« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2013, 04:26:23 AM »
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Not a lot you can say to that apart from how amateurish your dealer is.
If that was me I wouldn't spend another penny with them.
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Manoli
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« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2013, 05:15:30 AM »
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... you do not value dealers and do not wish to build a relationship with one.

Well, I always  thought it was the other way round. It should be the dealer looking to build a 'meaningful' relationship with their clients, thereby engendering not only brand loyalty but also, more importantly, a feeling that they, the dealer, are offering something more than simply being 'box pushers'.


In contrast to this approach, many of our long term clients ... have done this upgrade through us; none of them paid what you've indicated here. None waited more than a day or two for a response on what we could do for them.

And this beggars the question, with such appalling representation, just what steps have PhaseOne taken to get to the bottom of this ? Is this representative of PhaseOne dealers, and of PhaseOne themselves ? And if not, just what steps taken to ensure that this never happens again ?

It is NOT 'in contrast to this approach ..' - PhaseOne dealers are to all intents and purposes 'PhaseOne' as far as the customer is concerned. Their behaviour and service is a direct reflection of the ethos of the parent company.

--

Doug,

Don't misunderstand me. I have nothing against PhaseOne. I have on many occasions wished I had one of your backs, but every time I've considered it, sound economic sense has prevailed - simply because I have yet to speak to a PhaseOne dealer in the EU who hasn't given me the distinct impression of a shark coming in for the 'feed'.

They always offer a 'discount' or inducement for the initial sale, but when I query them about future upgrades, or some guaranteed maximum depreciation - silence. This brings us into the Nikon / Canon camp financially, where the second hand values and true cost of upgrades are more easily identifiable. 

Consequently, for the few occasions I have 'needed' a back I've resorted to renting one - I wish it weren't so.
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gerald.d
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« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2013, 06:08:48 AM »
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Not a lot you can say to that apart from how amateurish your dealer is.
If that was me I wouldn't spend another penny with them.

I'm not casting aspersions on the dealer - it seems to me that there really is little they can do other than to act as a post office between me and Phase One, and at the end of the day, this upgrade decision rests with Phase One.

We're not a huge market out here, so I suspect that the dealer doesn't have the kind of clout with "the mothership" as those operating in much larger markets have, nor I suspect, are they able to run much of a market in used backs.

Interestingly, I did receive an email from a customer who shared that the price he was offered for the same upgrade (IQ180>IQ260) by a very large dealer (no comment on who or where) was in fact the exact same price I was offered. i.e. - He was "offered" the same as that to upgrade to the 280 too.

At least I know it's not just me!

To me, it seems that the dealer-based operating model may well work fine in large markets, but smaller markets simply cannot be served well when the dealer doesn't have the scale to be able to truly help customers out.

It's interesting to contrast with ALPA. Where they do not have dealer representation, they are happy to work directly with their customers. From my perspective, this approach works exceedingly well. They've had a load of business from me over the last year or so, and it's always an absolute delight to work with them.

Kind regards,

Gerald.
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Sareesh Sudhakaran
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« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2013, 07:00:41 AM »
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Lovely work, Gerard! There was a time when none of that existed. Thanks for sharing.
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