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Author Topic: In praise of "Wretched Excess"  (Read 17347 times)
alan_y
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« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2013, 02:54:26 AM »
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The funny thing about the Lunar/Stellar bashing is that I have NEVER read anyone who does otherwise. It remains to me a mystery who on earth (literally) are buying these, or even finding them palatable and not patently ridiculous. I can't tell whether MR's suggestion that "there is a market, particularly in China and Russia, where the nouveau riche have more money than taste" is based on hard and specific evidence, previous knowledge of related phenomena, or very loose cultural stereotypes. If it's the last, then I might have to add the Middle East, Latin America, Southeast Asia... or indeed every place other than the ironic and self-congratulatory Western Western Europe and Coastal USA. Surveying Chinese-language press and forums on the Lunar, I haven't seen anything positive either.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2013, 02:58:50 AM by alan_y » Logged
stevesanacore
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« Reply #61 on: July 30, 2013, 08:05:01 AM »
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My experience with Chinese at least, is that yes, they have lots of disposable income and like to buy the best with price as no object - but they are not stupid and I doubt they will buy a Nex-7 for seven times the price. It doesn't matter if someone can afford it or not. The only market I see is the super rich who have no idea or interest in camera specs and buy it as a gift for their husband, wife or girlfriend. While in London last week I saw a beautiful full page ad for the camera in a superyacht magazine, that is their market.

The biggest issue I see is the damage this joke may do to a reputable company like Hasselblad. How can you take them seriously anymore?  I would think twice before investing any money in one of their MF systems with this kind of thinking. Very sad.

IMO

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hcubell
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« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2013, 09:12:26 AM »
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So long as we are on the topic of "Wretched Excesses" of the photographic type, I want to add to the list the Alpa tech cameras with the rosewood handles. Same gestalt as the Lunar.
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image66
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« Reply #63 on: July 30, 2013, 10:31:41 AM »
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So long as we are on the topic of "Wretched Excesses" of the photographic type, I want to add to the list the Alpa tech cameras with the rosewood handles. Same gestalt as the Lunar.

Thank you! I was about to post some long diatribe about our hyprocity in all this. After all, we take snobbish (and boorish) materialism to all new levels. Who are we to be calling others clowns? Even in our "Fine Art Photography" (make sure you say that all long and drawn out), we are producing and hopefully actually selling wall bling to those who have more dollars than sense. Instead of buying $50 worth of ink and canvas for $6000, they should be giving this money to the soup kitchen instead.

Right?

Hmm. Guess not. Wrong crowd. I can't hang with most of you because my digital camera doesn't even have EIGHT megapixels. But maybe, I'll be able to pick up an unsold or second-hand Lunar for a couple hundred bucks. So you all keep calling it junk. OK?
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Rob C
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« Reply #64 on: July 30, 2013, 01:31:49 PM »
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Thank you! I was about to post some long diatribe about our hyprocity in all this. After all, we take snobbish (and boorish) materialism to all new levels. Who are we to be calling others clowns? Even in our "Fine Art Photography" (make sure you say that all long and drawn out), we are producing and hopefully actually selling wall bling to those who have more dollars than sense. Instead of buying $50 worth of ink and canvas for $6000, they should be giving this money to the soup kitchen instead.

Right?

Hmm. Guess not. Wrong crowd. I can't hang with most of you because my digital camera doesn't even have EIGHT megapixels. But maybe, I'll be able to pick up an unsold or second-hand Lunar for a couple hundred bucks. So you all keep calling it junk. OK?



Don't bank on it: I think you are absolutely right.

Rob C
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hcubell
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« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2013, 02:00:11 PM »
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In a way, the rebadging of the Mamiya AFDIII that sells for $4,000 as a Phase One DF that sells for $6,000 is even worse than the Lunar. At least Hasselblad puts a wood handle and some leather on the Sony NEX-7 before calling it the Lunar. How many people have bought the so-called Phase One DF at a 50% premium over the AFDIII when they know, deep down inside, that they would NEVER buy the Mamiya because it was badged a Mamiya and they could not face the embarassment of being asked what camera they are using and having to respond, "a Mamiya"?
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2013, 02:30:18 PM »
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Hi,

What is wrong with Mamiya?

I guess that Phase One would have been glad to sell their digital backs for anyone buying, but Hasselblad closed their system, so Phase needed to find a camera to put their backs on. Phase tried to acquire the rights to Contax 645, but that didn't work out.

I really thought hat photography was about making pictures...

Best regards
Erik
In a way, the rebadging of the Mamiya AFDIII that sells for $4,000 as a Phase One DF that sells for $6,000 is even worse than the Lunar. At least Hasselblad puts a wood handle and some leather on the Sony NEX-7 before calling it the Lunar. How many people have bought the so-called Phase One DF at a 50% premium over the AFDIII when they know, deep down inside, that they would NEVER buy the Mamiya because it was badged a Mamiya and they could not face the embarassment of being asked what camera they are using and having to respond, "a Mamiya"?
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Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2013, 04:33:50 PM »
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Re: Mamiya.

Of the thirty or so film cameras I owned and used over the years B. D. (Before Digital), the one I most dearly regret selling is the only Mamiya I ever owned: the Mamiya 6. But it went to a good home.

Phase One? What's that?    Cheesy

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NancyP
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« Reply #68 on: July 30, 2013, 06:45:50 PM »
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Don't DARE diss the Mamiya.  Angry  OK, I only had its little sibling 35mm film all manual version (Mamiya-Sekor DTL 1000), but I loved that camera, and the Mamiya lenses I had. I was sad when they quit making 35mm format cameras, and had aspired to the film MF Mamiyas.
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Nemo
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« Reply #69 on: July 31, 2013, 08:58:15 AM »
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I have no inside information whatsoever, but simple observation of the company's behaviour and announcements shows that they are bereft of new technology, new ideas, or a clue about where the medium format marketplace is going.



The problem may be different.

It is very difficult to rise the necessary funds for the development of a new system of cameras. Leica spent 20 millions of euros, maybe more, in the development of the S camera (a camera and system not for professionals, but for rich aficionados). That is a huge amount of money for the medium format market. Pentax halted the development of the 645 camera many times, and I seriously doubt it has been a sales success.

There is no money in the medium format market. You cannot recover any investment in that market. The development of the MF systems is very slow (new lenses, new accessories). Leica is doing well just because they have the luxury market as a target. It is the only way. Hasselblad tried (the Ferrari edition of the H camera), but Leica does this better, designing a new camera and system for this purpose (legacy free, small form factor, great design, sexy). This is the successful Leica model. Do Hasselblad have the funds?

Hasselblad's brand has (had?) very strong value, so they can think in bringing the brand to the consumer electronic segments of the market, but the development of new products requires money, and time. That market has limited margins and the competition is very strong. The only protection is strong differentiation. Leica has been successful here as well: the M system and the X cameras.

Leica sells 100% Panasonic cameras, but only compact cameras. It is very difficult to be profitable in that market. This is the third leg of the Leica model. Just for filling gaps in the product porfolio, and doing that with profits too!

If Hasselblad tries to mimic the Leica model they have a huge task. They need money, time, and a good strategy for each branch of the market. High quality products with strong differentiation and specific marketing. It is not easy. Maybe it is impossible now.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #70 on: August 01, 2013, 09:02:18 AM »
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In a way, the rebadging of the Mamiya AFDIII that sells for $4,000 as a Phase One DF that sells for $6,000 is even worse than the Lunar. At least Hasselblad puts a wood handle and some leather on the Sony NEX-7 before calling it the Lunar. How many people have bought the so-called Phase One DF at a 50% premium over the AFDIII[...]

You're matching up the wrong models.

The Mamiya AFD3 is the Phase One AF
The Mamiya DF is the Phase One DF
The Mamiya DF+ is the Phase One DF+

In each case the Mamiya and Phase branded versions are the same price, and have the same features. There is no premium in either direction.

You were comparing the AFD3 and DF which are one generation apart. The DF added leaf-shutter-support for 1/1600th flash sync, better AF, reduced lag, and compatibility with the V-Grip Air for wireless flash triggering and a vertical trigger.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2013, 09:41:47 AM by Doug Peterson » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #71 on: August 01, 2013, 10:08:46 AM »
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There is no money in the medium format market. You cannot recover any investment in that market.

Phase One developed an entirely new back chassis with the only in-camera MF live view, a very fast modern interface based around a retina LCD and a touch screen GUI, UDMA7 compatibility (before even Canon/Nikon supported UDMA7), tools like focus-mask and a 2-axis level with auto-horizon and auto-perspective correction, and review of the last 10 images from the camera while shooting tethered.

Now they have developed a really elegant wireless solution which allows the speed of sending a small JPG with the focus-checking of sending the full res file and the workflow of native tethering (files tagged, or star rated carry to the raw file itself).

So maybe you could be more specific as to what entities cannot recover investment in medium format. Because your statement doesn't seem to apply to Team Phase One.
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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Manoli
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« Reply #72 on: August 01, 2013, 10:24:29 AM »
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Phase One developed an entirely new back chassis with the only in-camera MF live view, a very fast modern interface based around a retina LCD and a touch screen GUI, UDMA7 compatibility (before even Canon/Nikon supported UDMA7), tools like focus-mask and a 2-axis level with auto-horizon and auto-perspective correction, and review of the last 10 images from the camera while shooting tethered.

Now they have developed a really elegant wireless solution which allows the speed of sending a small JPG with the focus-checking of sending the full res file and the workflow of native tethering (files tagged, or star rated carry to the raw file itself).


Well that's wonderful, but has absolutely nothing to do with ROI ( Return on Investment )
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #73 on: August 01, 2013, 10:52:23 AM »
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Hi,

I'd suggest that it has to do a lot with ROI-

1) Phase One can do the development due to previous ROI

2) It is very probable that Phase One plans to reach ROI that pays for the present developments

I don't know if the MF industry is healthy.

Best regards
Erik

Well that's wonderful, but has absolutely nothing to do with ROI ( Return on Investment )
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Weinschela
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« Reply #74 on: August 01, 2013, 11:22:28 AM »
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Hasselblad has gone down a slippery slope.
Compare with Leica rebrands of Panasonics.  They come at an up charge but a multiple of the Pana price, and include a better warranty and sometimes Lightroom.   And purportedly slightly different firmware. 
Hassy is just exploiting its name.  However, nobody is compelled to buy one of these.   
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Manoli
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« Reply #75 on: August 01, 2013, 12:43:50 PM »
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Eric,
With respect

1) Phase One can do the development due to previous ROI

That MAY be due to previous ROI, it MAY be due to an increase in share capital, MAY be due to a variety of other ways to raise capital.

2) It is very probable that Phase One plans to reach ROI that pays for the present developments

Probability (and plans to reach a given ROI) are not the same as certainty. We do not know. The continuing obfuscation which appears to be part of the PhaseOne culture does nothing to dispel the fears regarding the financial health of the MF industry.

All best
M

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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #76 on: August 01, 2013, 04:46:43 PM »
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Hi,

My guess is that you need a reasonable business plan to raise capital in the long term.

Best regards
Erik


Eric,
With respect

That MAY be due to previous ROI, it MAY be due to an increase in share capital, MAY be due to a variety of other ways to raise capital.

Probability (and plans to reach a given ROI) are not the same as certainty. We do not know. The continuing obfuscation which appears to be part of the PhaseOne culture does nothing to dispel the fears regarding the financial health of the MF industry.

All best
M


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Sareesh Sudhakaran
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« Reply #77 on: August 01, 2013, 10:05:39 PM »
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Here's an article from diglloyd: http://diglloyd.com/blog/2013/20130801_4-SonyRX-models.html

In it, Sony's financial report has the words:

Quote
In compact digital cameras, where the market continues to contract, Sony has shifted its product lineup to high value-added models.

Maybe Hasselblad wants to also get into this space following Sony's report? Could Sony buy Hasselblad, and would that make sense?
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #78 on: August 01, 2013, 10:42:14 PM »
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Hi,

I don't think that would make a lot of sense.

Best regards
Erik


Maybe Hasselblad wants to also get into this space following Sony's report? Could Sony buy Hasselblad, and would that make sense?
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Jim Pascoe
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« Reply #79 on: August 02, 2013, 04:16:33 AM »
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Don't DARE diss the Mamiya.  Angry  OK, I only had its little sibling 35mm film all manual version (Mamiya-Sekor DTL 1000), but I loved that camera, and the Mamiya lenses I had. I was sad when they quit making 35mm format cameras, and had aspired to the film MF Mamiyas.

I had the NC1000s from 1979 and it was what I did all my early photography on.  Later I also had an RB67 which was a superb camera.....

Jim
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