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Author Topic: In praise of "Wretched Excess"  (Read 17388 times)
hcubell
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« Reply #80 on: August 02, 2013, 06:47:41 AM »
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I still have a Mamiya 7 and four exceptional lenses. Wonderful camera. So what? It's irrelevant to the issue at hand.
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hcubell
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« Reply #81 on: August 02, 2013, 07:06:19 AM »
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You're matching up the wrong models.

The Mamiya AFD3 is the Phase One AF
The Mamiya DF is the Phase One DF
The Mamiya DF+ is the Phase One DF+

In each case the Mamiya and Phase branded versions are the same price, and have the same features. There is no premium in either direction.

You were comparing the AFD3 and DF which are one generation apart. The DF added leaf-shutter-support for 1/1600th flash sync, better AF, reduced lag, and compatibility with the V-Grip Air for wireless flash triggering and a vertical trigger.

At least when Phase One first came out with its rebadged AFDIII, my recollection is that there was a 50% price premium for its version of the AFDIII. That stirred up a lot of criticism on the net. Perhaps you recall what an AFD III and the Phase One AF sold for back then?
In any event, the fundamental point is this. I know how I would react if Mercedes bought Chevrolet, stuck a Mercedes hood ornament on it, badged it as a Mercedes without changing anything, jacked the price up, and all of a sudden people who would not be caught dead in a Chevrolet were buying them.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 09:39:24 AM by hcubell » Logged

michael
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« Reply #82 on: August 02, 2013, 07:22:20 AM »
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Vearing somewhat at a tangent, there can be beneficial results when disparate (and desperate) companies work together.

Remember when Mercedes bought Chrysler and along with it the Jeep division? The companies decided that for the sake of economy they would base the next generation ML350 and the Grand Cherokee on the same chassis, with much of the same design ethos.

The companies then got divorced (culturally it was a very bad marriage), and Fiat bought Jeep (which has tuned into a love affair).

But the point of the story is that the new Jeep Grand Cherokee is a fantastic vehicle, with a lot of MB DNA. Cross fertilization between companies can be quite beneficial.

Sadly I don't think Sony has anything to learn from Hasselblad except how to cash component supply cheques.

Michael

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MarkL
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« Reply #83 on: August 02, 2013, 05:50:54 PM »
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I had the NC1000s from 1979 and it was what I did all my early photography on.  Later I also had an RB67 which was a superb camera.....

Jim

Tonnes of fashion editorials were shot on RB/RZs by big names. Nothing wrong with Mamiya.

I sometimes miss my RB even though the D800 would eat it for breakfast.
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Nemo
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« Reply #84 on: August 04, 2013, 06:13:44 AM »
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When Leica started the S project the target was 10% of the MF market, 10,000 cameras per year at that time.

Now the total worldwide production is more like 6,000-7,000 units per year. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

We have 4 players: Pentax, Phase One, Hasselblad and Leica. Too many for such a small pond.

Phase One is doing well in the professional market. Leica goes for the luxury market from the start, and they are successful. Pextax seems to aim the aficionado market, not wealthy but photographers trained and wishing MF tools. I don't know but it seems that approach does not work outside of Japan (no new lenses from Pentax 645D, etc.). Hasselblad is trapped. The market is collapsing and they don't have a safe refuge. They have tried to be in all those segments, but they have been losing positions in the professional market because of the flexibility and quality of Phase One's offer, and the luxury market was totally captured by Leica. What to do? How to get funds and where to invest them? All points to an exit of the MF market (not abandoning it, just to invest elsewhere) and an incursion in the luxury or professional segments of small format cameras (a far larger pond with marginal space for Hasselblad, a strong brand yet). But if they cannot do better than the Stellar and Lunar, they are damned.

The question is why. Why are they doing that ridiculous rebranding? I cannot give answer but I guess they cannot get the funds for anything else.  Are they thinking in sharing the NEX platform with Sony, like Olympus and Panasonic did with micro 4/3? How can Hasselblad develop a competitive and differentiated offer there? Is the NEX system the best choice for the luxury market? They are reacting too late. It seems like a desperate attempt for raising extra funds in the short terms, selling the brand name. But all looks like a big mistake.

 


« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 06:53:56 AM by Nemo » Logged
Chairman Bill
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« Reply #85 on: August 04, 2013, 07:34:37 AM »
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The Lunar is clearly there for real Hasselfake photography, not pretend Hasselfake stuff. I presume it does use a square format?
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #86 on: August 05, 2013, 09:21:45 AM »
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At least when Phase One first came out with its rebadged AFDIII, my recollection is that there was a 50% price premium for its version of the AFDIII. That stirred up a lot of criticism on the net. Perhaps you recall what an AFD III and the Phase One AF sold for back then?
In any event, the fundamental point is this. I know how I would react if Mercedes bought Chevrolet, stuck a Mercedes hood ornament on it, badged it as a Mercedes without changing anything, jacked the price up, and all of a sudden people who would not be caught dead in a Chevrolet were buying them.

That doesn't jive with my recollection. From memory the [AFDIII body only] launched at $3990 and the [Phase One AF w/ 80mm D lens] launched at $4990. I don't recall the price of the AFDIII with a lens or the price of the AF without the lens. But in any case I do not believe there as a 50% price premium (or any meaningful premium for that matter). If you have links to support what you're saying though I'd gladly look through them – I'd be the first to point out I do tech not sales so my memory (and collection of legacy documents) on pricing issues is not perfect.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #87 on: August 05, 2013, 12:43:08 PM »
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Hi,

I don't know how much is presumptions and how much are facts.

As far as I know, Hasselblad may do fine or they may be in problems. They are privately owned, and I don't think they disclose figures. I got the impression that they have a pretty strong market position here in Sweden. It seems that many pros have a Hasselblad, but I never read about any pro having a Phase One, here in Sweden.

Just to put things in perspective, during ten years of travel I have seen a single MF camera "in the wild" and that was a Noblex. So I don't think that MFD has a significant market share.

Personally, I think that Hasselblad has a mature and complete MF system and they still do a decent amount of development on cameras. On the other hand, I guess that it is the backs that are "sexy" and earn money. I guess that Hasselblad may not be a strong competitor in that area.

My guess is that we would be more fortunate if Hasselblad focused on cameras and lenses and worked with any vendor of digital backs. Hasselblad unfortunately decided to close their system to the competition. I am not sure it was a wise choice.

I am not sure the Leica S2 is oriented toward the luxury sector. It seems to be a fine camera.

I would also say that the vendors depending on Kodak (OK, TrueSense) sensors may have a bit of trouble. Phase One opted to cooperate with Dalsa, and they actually seem to have codeveloped some sensors with Dalsa. I don't think that TrueSense is that offensive regarding development.

Now, regarding the "Lunarcy", I would say that the base is a decent camera with mediocre lenses. Hasselblad could have enhanced it a bit with "Zeiss lenses", now that we have some 'Tuit' lenses from Zeiss, but they put their label on junk lenses from Sony and also did a horrible design.

On the other hand,according to Sony Rumors, they could sell the whole production run. Must be a lot of Lunetics around...

Best regards
Erik


When Leica started the S project the target was 10% of the MF market, 10,000 cameras per year at that time.

Now the total worldwide production is more like 6,000-7,000 units per year. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

We have 4 players: Pentax, Phase One, Hasselblad and Leica. Too many for such a small pond.

Phase One is doing well in the professional market. Leica goes for the luxury market from the start, and they are successful. Pextax seems to aim the aficionado market, not wealthy but photographers trained and wishing MF tools. I don't know but it seems that approach does not work outside of Japan (no new lenses from Pentax 645D, etc.). Hasselblad is trapped. The market is collapsing and they don't have a safe refuge. They have tried to be in all those segments, but they have been losing positions in the professional market because of the flexibility and quality of Phase One's offer, and the luxury market was totally captured by Leica. What to do? How to get funds and where to invest them? All points to an exit of the MF market (not abandoning it, just to invest elsewhere) and an incursion in the luxury or professional segments of small format cameras (a far larger pond with marginal space for Hasselblad, a strong brand yet). But if they cannot do better than the Stellar and Lunar, they are damned.

The question is why. Why are they doing that ridiculous rebranding? I cannot give answer but I guess they cannot get the funds for anything else.  Are they thinking in sharing the NEX platform with Sony, like Olympus and Panasonic did with micro 4/3? How can Hasselblad develop a competitive and differentiated offer there? Is the NEX system the best choice for the luxury market? They are reacting too late. It seems like a desperate attempt for raising extra funds in the short terms, selling the brand name. But all looks like a big mistake.

 



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KLaban
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« Reply #88 on: August 05, 2013, 02:10:23 PM »
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I expect better from SonyBlad in the future.

But what do I know?
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David Mantripp
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« Reply #89 on: August 05, 2013, 03:06:07 PM »
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I've actually spotted 2 in the wild. On sale at Schipol Airport Amsterdam, for ONLY €5,999 (each, I think).  They're as ugly in the flesh as they are in photos.  They really, really do not look like anything more than €2,000 at the outmost.  No class, gaps everywhere - say what you will about Leicas, at least they look the part.



I watched for a while - in a busy and well-known airside store, they attracted no interest whatsoever apart from knowing smirks from a few fellow camera geeks.
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KirbyKrieger
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« Reply #90 on: August 07, 2013, 05:32:06 AM »
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I've actually spotted 2 in the wild. On sale at Schipol Airport Amsterdam

Caged   Wink .   A marketing chimera that can't feed itself.
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Eric Myrvaagnes
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« Reply #91 on: August 07, 2013, 08:53:30 AM »
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Caged   Wink .   A marketing chimera that can't feed itself.
Grin
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PierreVandevenne
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« Reply #92 on: August 07, 2013, 09:30:38 AM »
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As far as I know, Hasselblad may do fine or they may be in problems. They are privately owned, and I don't think they disclose figures.

Should be fairly easy to get info here

http://cvr.dk/Site/Forms/PublicService/DisplayCompany.aspx?cvrnr=18635445&q=b93e0fb3-01f8-4bf6-8bb3-1c64c9414fc5&p=d2290629-9a93-4685-b9f3-189e3e969527&ts=1375885291&c=cvrdk&e=prod&rt=Safetynet&h=9280eb8e2d1498a700724f8f3e7a9193

Most tax filings are public these days, or near public (token fee). They don't tell the whole story by themselves, you may need to work through a few of them to get a full picture if the business is split in different entities, but that is usually doable.
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dag.bb
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« Reply #93 on: August 20, 2013, 01:05:41 PM »
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Both Hasselblad and Phase One seem to be doing quite well, despite some comments to the contrary, with increasing revenue and profits, at least up to 2011:

Hasseblad in 2011: revenue 290 m SEK, net profit 40 m SEK: [google mistakenly translates SEK or DKK into GBP...!]
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=no&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.proff.se%2Fnyckeltal%2Fvictor-hasselblad-ab%2Fgöteborg%2Ffotoutrustningar%2F13095623-1%2F

Phase One in 2011: revenue 277 m DKK, net profit 30 m DKK:
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=no&sl=da&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.proff.dk%2Fregnskab%2Fphase-one-as%2Ffrederiksberg%2F-%2F1001382533%2F

Maybe some economist can fill in - but their balance also seems very strong.

Dag
« Last Edit: August 20, 2013, 01:21:56 PM by dag.bb » Logged
nightfire
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« Reply #94 on: September 09, 2013, 01:37:25 AM »
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It is very difficult to rise the necessary funds for the development of a new system of cameras.
Let's not forget some of Leica's recent successful sins:

* The M9-P
* The M9 Titanium
* The M9 Hermes Edition
* and as a special case, the M-E

All of these were basic M9 models wrapped up in various degrees of bling (or actually dumbed down in the case of the M-E), offering no technical improvement over the base model whatsoever. It worked for Leica on their path to development of the new M. Maybe Hasselblad is hoping for similar luck and revenue to bridge the gap while they scramble to find an answer to Phase One's latest IQ backs?
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