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Author Topic: Photoshop & Creative Cloud: We’re Listening?  (Read 21773 times)
BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2013, 06:07:33 PM »
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Another downside to this besides all us photographer types being pushed under the wheels of the bus, is that if 50% of their customer base were home users and small businesses, then these were also probably the vast majority of the people who bought the books and videos and learning materials etc to learn how to use Adobe's products, because corporate users will have their own in-house training materials and trainers. So in effect Adobe are also throwing a lot of the third party and associated training businesses, authors, publishers and online training sites etc, etc, under the same bus.

Hi Dave,

That's exactly, although in other words, one of the things I've said earlier. The collateral damage, and indirectly to the promotion of Adobe, is not to be underestimated (and their analysts probably (conveniently, because it's hard to estimate, or it was ignored) missed that aspect).

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"But hey ho, it is their business and they can do with it as they please and push forward whatever ideas they want to push forward in the quest to maximise profits, even if it does mean lots of little people getting their fingers burnt – because as the old saying goes, business is business.

I just wonder if in the long run, it is going to be good business, having alienated so many people?

Indeed.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: August 03, 2013, 06:10:01 PM by BartvanderWolf » Logged
chez
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« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2013, 07:24:41 PM »
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Another downside to this besides all us photographer types being pushed under the wheels of the bus, is that if 50% of their customer base were home users and small businesses, then these were also probably the vast majority of the people who bought the books and videos and learning materials etc to learn how to use Adobe's products, because corporate users will have their own in-house training materials and trainers. So in effect Adobe are also throwing a lot of the third party and associated training businesses, authors, publishers and online training sites etc, etc, under the same bus.

But hey ho, it is their business and they can do with it as they please and push forward whatever ideas they want to push forward in the quest to maximise profits, even if it does mean lots of little people getting their fingers burnt – because as the old saying goes, business is business.


I just wonder if in the long run, it is going to be good business, having alienated so many people by doing this?

Dave



I guess if this customer base actually upgraded on a regular basis and generated revenue for Adobe, then they would not have even thought of alienating them. Obviously, this single photog customer just was not producing revenue for Adobe. Why should a company continue to spend money on customers that don't spend money on the company? I'm sure Adobe would not have to look at different revenue streams if their current streams provided the revenue to keep the company profitabl.
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2013, 07:50:52 PM »
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Obviously, this single photog customer just was not producing revenue for Adobe. Why should a company continue to spend money on customers that don't spend money on the company?

Hi,

That's where the 'analysis' fails! As a person who was successfully involved in marketing (BTW marketing is not the equivalent to sales, as many seem to believe), for many years, I can say that there are many more elements to be considered, though it may hurt the brain of some of the 'participants' of this thread.

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I'm sure Adobe would not have to look at different revenue streams if their current streams provided the revenue to keep the company profitabl.

As the customary disclaimer goes: "past performance is no guarantee for the future"...

Cheers,
Bart
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chez
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« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2013, 09:15:27 PM »
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Hi,

That's where the 'analysis' fails! As a person who was successfully involved in marketing (BTW marketing is not the equivalent to sales, as many seem to believe), for many years, I can say that there are many more elements to be considered, though it may hurt the brain of some of the 'participants' of this thread.
R
As the customary disclaimer goes: "past performance is no guarantee for the future"...

Cheers,
Bart

So you jump in and drop a bunch of nothing, claiming others are not up to your standards...talk about BS. Please stoop down and enlighten us with this marketing wisdom you posses that a large corporation like Adobe does not. You seem to think pretty highly of yourself.
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Steve House
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« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2013, 09:00:30 AM »
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...As a person who was successfully involved in marketing (BTW marketing is not the equivalent to sales, as many seem to believe), for many years, I can say that there are many more elements to be considered, though it may hurt the brain of some of the 'participants' of this thread.
...
Exactly!  "Sales" is building a product and convincing people they want/need it. "Marketing" is researching what customers want and then crafting a product that fulfills those desires and needs.
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Tim Lookingbill
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« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2013, 02:45:56 PM »
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So if they dispense with us @home/individuals, they eliminate a ton of support expenses and sales costs at a cost of only 10% of their revenue.

From the complaints about Adobe customer service and tech support I've read online from 2001 to the present, just last month I finally found out from someone posting over at Photo.net that Adobe's customer service strategy employs a three tier hierarchal system that refers each customer issue according to the level of complexity. That's got to be tough to budget for.

I can't even remember the one time I had to call Adobe customer service or tech support over an issue since PS4 in '98 all the way up to CS5 which I don't even use now. Back then I had Illustrator 8, Pagemaker 6.5 and PS4 and they all worked just fine on Mac OS 8, but then I wasn't using them to run a business.

Geez! Just remembered. Even the Twain plugin for my Agfa Arcus II flatbed worked in PS4 while everyone else seemed to be having trouble with their own scanner model.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2013, 02:47:39 PM by Tim Lookingbill » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2013, 11:11:30 PM »
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I don't think anyone here would think Adobe actively want to loose customers, the annoyance is that they don't care much that their policies will loose some. No one likes realising that their hard earnt money is unimportant to someone else.

There are 2 aspects to consider:
- The lack of interest of Adobe for additional income that could have been generated by individuals/small businesses,
- The money those people have spent in the past with Adobe products based on the - now proven false - premise that Adobe's products were worth investing in (from a monetary, time, knowledge, IP,... standpoint).

The decision of Adobe is not just about telling us "we are not interested in your cash", it also says "we don't consider your past contribution worthy of respect".

In my view, this conveys a very negative message because the same line of thought could very well apply in the future to those corporate customers currently being targeted by Adobe. Adobe could come up with a new line of software generating more revenue and tell their current customers, sorry we have decided to stop investing in PS because we have found something more profitable to do... They may not get much advanced notice... we didn't get much advanced notice.

At least, it does force their large customers to add the credibility of Adobe as a reliable long term software vendor to their list of risks to managed. A low risk for now, but it used to be a zero risk.

Cheers,
Bernard
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ButchM
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« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2013, 11:31:23 PM »
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So in effect Adobe are also throwing a lot of the third party and associated training businesses, authors, publishers and online training sites etc, etc, under the same bus.


Maybe not. At least one entity and their followers are being enticed to join the CC fold.

http://tinyurl.com/l6qlo95
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jrp
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« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2013, 07:43:27 AM »
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I don't think anyone here would think Adobe actively want to loose customers, ...

No, of course not.  But they have consciously adopted a policy that even they think will reduce their customers / subscribers by 60%.  I don't know how this will affect their costs, as they seem to be attaching a greater premium to the certainty of recurring revenue streams than to cost reduction, but if their costs are unaffected, then the effective price for subscribers will have to more than double to retain existing levels of profitablity.

An alternative explanation is that they don't really believe that their customer base will shrink that drastically, and want in future to be able to surprise the market on the upside.  The (silent) extension of the reduced rental rate deadline to end-August suggests to me that they are not being overwhelmed with takers.  We'll find out at their next quaterly results.
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2013, 08:22:17 AM »
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Maybe not. At least one entity and their followers are being enticed to join the CC fold.

Hi,

They are trying to entice as many people as possible to get signed up (even for free), if only until December 31st when the investors will be asking how the market response was to the new sales model. Has the promised 2013 goal been met? Time is ticking away, and the uptake may be slower than anticipated/hoped for, so expect some more surprising moves.

Their main goal is to get as many people signed up before year end!

Cheers,
Bart
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Dave (Isle of Skye)
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« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2013, 10:32:39 AM »
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Hi,

They are trying to entice as many people as possible to get signed up (even for free), if only until December 31st when the investors will be asking how the market response was to the new sales model. Has the promised 2013 goal been met? Time is ticking away, and the uptake may be slower than anticipated/hoped for, so expect some more surprising moves.

Their main goal is to get as many people signed up before year end!

Cheers,
Bart

So I think what you are saying here Bart, is that if people are tempted to dip their toes into the CC waters for free for the first year, or try it out due to the lower introductory offer price, even though they may have no intention of continuing with their CC subscriptions after that, that they will in fact be boosting Adobe's apparent subscriber numbers in the first year sufficiently, to ensure that the subscription/rental model continues to be the only option that is ever available in the future?

So if you are against the idea of subscribing/renting Photoshop or any other Adobe product going forward, then you shouldn't even try it out for free, as you will then be actively contributing towards making the subscription/rental option the only option that is ever going to be available.

A bit of a catch 22 for a lot of people who don't want to subscribe, but also want to keep up to date with their software?

But do we really think that the people running Adobe have thought so deeply and fiendishly about this and come up with such a plot, that allows them to so easily grasp all their customers by the family jewels and make them their profit puppets? (Cue sinister Hammer House of Horror type laughter in the background) Because from everything that I read about Adobe lately, seems to indicate that the management stumble around aimlessly from one bad idea to another, but with profit continuing to be a lucky consequence of doing so, even though they wouldn't be able to find their own arse with an arse seeking missile.

Huh

Dave
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 10:52:30 AM by Dave (Isle of Skye) » Logged

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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2013, 11:41:28 AM »
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So I think what you are saying here Bart, is that if people are tempted to dip their toes into the CC waters for free for the first year, or try it out due to the lower introductory offer price, even though they may have no intention of continuing with their CC subscriptions after that, that they will in fact be boosting Adobe's apparent subscriber numbers in the first year sufficiently, to ensure that the subscription/rental model continues to be the only option that is ever available in the future?

Hi Dave,

Yes, that's how I see things.

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So if you are against the idea of subscribing/renting Photoshop or any other Adobe product going forward, then you shouldn't even try it out for free, as you will then be actively contributing towards making the subscription/rental option the only option that is ever going to be available.

That's one consideration. Another would be that Adobe will come up with a sort of solution to the lock-out when payments stop, i.e. a purchase of a license for the product as it was at the time of contract termination (perhaps with a discount based on the length of the prior subscription period). But they won't do that unless forced by the circumstances.

As it looks currently, one could subscribe for just a single month, do a lot of work, and terminate the use of the software for a while, till a number of months later. That will save the user money, and he/she will be fully up to date with the latest features when subscribing for another odd month. I'm sure Adobe will try to prevent that scenario from unfolding, e.g. by significantly raising the price for single month subscriptions (they will sell that as a 'discount' for annual commitment, but that is of course the normal price level).

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A bit of a catch 22 for a lot of people who don't want to subscribe, but also want to keep up to date with their software?

Sure, but are we talking about wants or needs? In the case of wants, one should act strategically and wait till next year. Not a problem for those who already purchased a perpetual licence for CS6. In case of needs, well, encouraging Adobe in their behavior is the price to pay.

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But do we really think that the people running Adobe have thought so deeply and fiendishly about this and come up with such a plot, that allows them to so easily grasp all their customers by the family jewels and make them their profit puppets?


I don't know about what others think, but that's not a strange scenario for big business, IMHO of course. Some customers may stay on board, and others will leave (empty handed).

Cheers,
Bart
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mistybreeze
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« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2013, 07:17:50 AM »
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Maybe not. At least one entity and their followers are being enticed to join the CC fold.

http://tinyurl.com/l6qlo95

Offering a FREE one year FULL subscription to PS World Conference attendees? I'm floored, too! That's quite a coup for Scott Kelby and his hobbyist following. I'm sure his ego seriously outgrew his waist measurement with that news.

So it looks like Adobe is seeking amateur photographer dollars for CC membership. What a laugh. Sadly, Adobe has turned a once highly-respected company into a marketing mess, a public relations fiasco, managing to anger a large percentage of its most loyal user base.

I went to a fun party last week that had a few famous (younger) photographers as guests. None of them knew what was happening at Adobe. They had no idea that the license model had been dropped. (Apparently, a lot of people pay no attention to the news.) I couldn't help but think there's more anger to come.
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designpartners
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« Reply #33 on: August 06, 2013, 10:46:07 AM »
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Offering a FREE one year FULL subscription to PS World Conference attendees? I'm floored, too! That's quite a coup for Scott Kelby and his hobbyist following. I'm sure his ego seriously outgrew his waist measurement with that news.

So it looks like Adobe is seeking amateur photographer dollars for CC membership. What a laugh. Sadly, Adobe has turned a once highly-respected company into a marketing mess, a public relations fiasco, managing to anger a large percentage of its most loyal user base.

I went to a fun party last week that had a few famous (younger) photographers as guests. None of them knew what was happening at Adobe. They had no idea that the license model had been dropped. (Apparently, a lot of people pay no attention to the news.) I couldn't help but think there's more anger to come.

in fairness to what Scott and his team pulled off it's pretty amazing.... and.. from Adobes point of view, the extra number that they get from photoshop world wouldn't register as a blip on their figures, so I think it was them doing something nice and probably buying some good will in the process.
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mistybreeze
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« Reply #34 on: August 06, 2013, 11:20:41 AM »
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probably buying some good will in the process.

Good will for whom?

What happens when the year is up and the credit card fees for a FULL CC version start appearing on the monthly statements of Kelby's hobbyist customers? Honestly, what percentage of Kelby followers truly need a FULL version of CC?

What does this say about all the other Adobe gurus/evangelists (and their customers) who have been promoting Adobe products for the past decade or two? How do you define INSULT?

IMO, this is nothing more than a blatant numbers game. In spite of what anyone thinks of him, Kelby has built the largest empire of potential customers. And Adobe looks desperate for some of those numbers in the wake of their PR disaster.
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designpartners
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« Reply #35 on: August 06, 2013, 02:29:31 PM »
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good will for all... at the end of the day, it's not unreasonable for a company to offer a trial of a product and after that trial ends you can't use it any more.  And.. most company's give a 30 day trial, Adobe gave a 365 day trial for these attendees.. that's a pretty nice gesture to be fair..

as for the evangelists, well, I'm sure the reality is that they have little or no influence over what the company does, so take it as an insult if you wish....

and of course it's a numbers game, they are a business, I don't begrudge that, I begrudge the lack of a choice and the massive hike in annual price.

Finally, I HUGELY admire what the Kelby media team have accomplished, not just with Photoshop world, but look at the training available for a tiny price! World class pro's giving away years of experience. I genuinely wish them all the success in the world.

James

 
« Last Edit: August 07, 2013, 10:31:24 AM by designpartners » Logged
Wayland
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« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2013, 02:16:07 AM »
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Offering a FREE one year FULL subscription to PS World Conference attendees? I'm floored, too! That's quite a coup for Scott Kelby and his hobbyist following. I'm sure his ego seriously outgrew his waist measurement with that news.

So it looks like Adobe is seeking amateur photographer dollars for CC membership. What a laugh. Sadly, Adobe has turned a once highly-respected company into a marketing mess, a public relations fiasco, managing to anger a large percentage of its most loyal user base.

I went to a fun party last week that had a few famous (younger) photographers as guests. None of them knew what was happening at Adobe. They had no idea that the license model had been dropped. (Apparently, a lot of people pay no attention to the news.) I couldn't help but think there's more anger to come.

Sounds a bit like the dealers handing out free Crack at the school gates to me...

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Benny Profane
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« Reply #37 on: August 09, 2013, 09:05:13 AM »
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IMO, this is nothing more than a blatant numbers game. In spite of what anyone thinks of him, Kelby has built the largest empire of potential customers. And Adobe looks desperate for some of those numbers in the wake of their PR disaster.

I am a professional retoucher. Just for stuff and giggles, I decided to drop 99 bucks in '07 to attend one of his Photoshop seminars in Boston when I was living and working in Saratoga Springs, NY. Good excuse to drive over and see Boston, a cool city, for the day. I walked into a room filled with maybe 300 people, and thought, wtf? Who are these people? 300 retouchers within even a 100 mile radius from Boston?? Maybe an equivalent area in NYC metro, but, not Boston. Turns out half were serious amateurs, and the rest were wedding and portrait photographers. No way could you assemble actual, day to day professional retouchers in that quantity in the same room even if you paid them 99 bucks each. His market is just barely professional. The seminar/presentation/dog and pony show taught me nothing, other than there are 300 people in the Boston area who are very interested in Photoshop.

Finally, I HUGELY admire what the Kelby media team have accomplished, not just with Photoshop world, but look at the training available for a tiny price! World class pro's giving away years of experience. I genuinely wish them all the success in the world.

I don't. I find the man very irritating, and quite the self promoter. His podcasts from a few years ago are unwatchable. Scott, you're a nerd, and not funny. Cut to the chase, please, and stop tying to humor me. Tell me something I don't know.
I learn absolutely nothing from him. I do admire his skills in building what seems to be a a successful business, though. Gotta hand it to him for that, I guess.
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designpartners
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« Reply #38 on: August 09, 2013, 10:12:00 AM »
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I am a professional retoucher.

I don't. I find the man very irritating, and quite the self promoter. His podcasts from a few years ago are unwatchable. Scott, you're a nerd, and not funny. Cut to the chase, please, and stop tying to humor me. Tell me something I don't know.
I learn absolutely nothing from him. I do admire his skills in building what seems to be a a successful business, though. Gotta hand it to him for that, I guess.

but you are a professional retoucher... if he was teaching you something you didn't know I would suggest that you were not a very good professional retoucher...

he makes this stuff accessible to amateurs.. I personally am an amateur photographer, and for someone who is learning, in my option, what he offers is invaluable!

now if there was someone who claimed to be able to teach me in 1 day more about what I do for a living, guaranteed, I too would learn nothing  Wink

and if you find him annoying.. fine.. go watch Dan Margulis, Calvin Hollywood, David Cuerdon, Ben Willmore, Glyn Dewis, Joel Grimes, John Paul Caponigro et al...

James
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Benny Profane
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« Reply #39 on: August 09, 2013, 10:40:20 AM »
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One day is a start. I would expect at least one little thing I could use after I walk away. I don't expect a full course for 99 bucks, but, at least stop with the bad jokes.

And those other people won't help you much, either. I'm skeptical of most of these people who are good at marketing themselves. But, as I said, I respect the ambition, sort of.
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