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Author Topic: What future products would you WANT to see from MF(or other system) companies?  (Read 8551 times)
EricWHiss
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« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2013, 03:59:51 PM »
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square FF digital back for the Hy6 capable of doing high ISO.

+1, that's what I'd like.  I'd be happy with a Credo Square, even one with a lower pixel count and FAT pixels for low light. 
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DanielStone
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« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2013, 07:59:08 PM »
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+1, that's what I'd like.  I'd be happy with a Credo Square, even one with a lower pixel count and FAT pixels for low light.  

In all honesty, a 16-24mu sensor, with a native BASE iso of 400, is what I'd love to see as well.

56X56mm square sensor, I'd be pretty happy with that. Then HB would REALLY regret having killed off the V platform Wink

-Dan
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bcooter
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« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2013, 08:02:12 PM »
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Is that what's meant by Texan Appetite?

Thinking about it, Texas, I really believe a better option would be Jerry Hall, back when she was twenty.

;-)

Rob C

To take a line from Mr. T....Mark, I'm not comparing cameras, or something like that.

I'm not, but I know what I've used and honestly pick up a gh3, spend 30 minutes setting it up and go shoot.

No it doesn't have the still quality (quality covers a lot of area) of a Phase or Leaf or Blad medium format camera.

Then shoot some video and no it doesn't have the quality of a RED 1 or an Arri.

But what it does have is an amazing feature set that covers territory in both stills and video, probably the best EVF I've ever used and is as solid as a rock.

I don't know what other people shoot, do know what I shoot and the GH3 is the best all around camera I've ever used.

In fact the only reason I use the RED's for a lot of setups is because the RED workflow is much easier than an h264 camera, but this thing shoots way above it's weight.

I know the purists that yearn for a Rollei or a new version of a Mamiya 6x7 will raise hell over an electronic view finder and video but then again how the hell can you be a purist in the age of digital.

Digital is not film, not analog and no matter what digital camera you use you are in the electronic domain.

Anyway, sorry to go off topic but I'm curious what happens to cameras when the sensors get larger.  For some reason they get slower, some less reliable, much more costly and are useable for a decreasing part of the imaging world.

But I'm sure part of it comes to volume, part of it is price, probably part of it is having to rely on outside sensor makers, though Panasonic doesn't make the sensor (Sony does) and I would imagine they probably outsource some lenses (I know Olympus mft does).

Personally I don't care about physical sensor size.  I care about look and usability.  If the sensor is 1" or 10" I don't care as long as I can produce the look I want and it will be accepted for use.

I love the look of medium format backs, same with leica ccd's and love shooting medium format  because I really believe I see a difference and dig the analog feel of the camera I use (oops used the A word) but I also like the look of these little mft cameras and Panasonic really hit the mark.

I honestly believe they must have talked to people that are on the ground shooting for a living, because the panas are not perfect, but damn good.   They're autofocus is simply amazing and the camera cost around $1,200 and I've beat the heck out of mine, starting to wear off the white on the dials and they've never missed a frame and if your looking for a waist level finder, get a gx7.  That's one good little camera.

Crazy.

I'm sure Phase/Leaf has probably done this, but if not they should go on a busy set where a client wants horizontal and vertical, still and motion, time lapse, slo-mo, with and without sound and do it with every camera out there, then pick up a gh3.

I think they'd be surprised.

But once again, I'm not comparing and I'm sure the medium format makers know about what they sell and who they sell to more than I.

____________________________________


Jerry Hall?   I shot her after she left Mick.    They flew her into location in an  Aérospatiale helicopter and was the first real celebrity I worked with.  Really nice, really one of the nicest easiest people I ever worked with and of course I was prejudice because she spoke the same language I did . . . non discernible Texan.

People of all walks could take a lesson from her, because she could have bought the whole shoot for the money she probably finds loose in the bottom of her purse, but was just one of the guys (and girls).




IMO

BC

P.S.  I know early on RED announced medium format sized, actually larger than medium format sized motion and still cameras.  They didn't hit it and don't know why,  maybe because it's  way too expensive, but RED did set the motion world upside down with the first affordable cinema camera that shot raw and made a useable still image. RED's like any camera aren't perfect, but it's impressive how they started from scratch and built a whole system including software and like my medium format backs, I expect to own and use my RED's for many years.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2013, 08:22:59 PM by bcooter » Logged

ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2013, 08:32:42 PM »
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Hi,

Such a sensor would produce an incredible amount of moiré and fake detail.

Base ISO is depending on physics, not sure 400 is possible.

Best regards
Erik


In all honesty, a 16-24mu sensor, with a native BASE iso of 400, is what I'd love to see as well.

56X56mm square sensor, I'd be pretty happy with that. Then HB would REALLY regret having killed off the V platform Wink

-Dan
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Ken R
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« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2013, 08:49:23 PM »
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I do not know the technical details but it is well accepted as fact nowadays that all sensors that use a bayer filter need a good amount of pixel density to prevent undesirable artifacts like Moire from potentially degrading the image quality significantly.

I do not know if a full color high quality pixel is possible but if and when that happens then designers might have more flexibility in regards to sensor specifications. The Foveon sensor is a good start but I think it still has a long way to go. I would love to have a talk with Carver Mead about this one day.  Grin
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BJL
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« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2013, 10:47:17 PM »
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I'm not in the DMF market, but bcooter raised an interesting idea: with a CMOS sensor that supports live view, a full 645 sized sensor could be mounted on a rotating back in an "EVF camera" (non-SLR, live view only) without the penalty of a bigger mirror box that a RB SLR has, and the 4:3 shaped EVF could be rotated too, avoiding the need for an oversized square EVF panel. (And of course the rear LCD would rotate with the back, so no problems there.)

Another bonus of moving to an EVF camera is that the body could be shallow enough to allow a wide variety of lenses to be used via adaptors, including 35mm format lenses in some circumstances. (I understand that some longer focal length lenses produce image circles considerably larger than the format needs, so could add some affordable options for my fantasy 645LV camera.)
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iluvmycam
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« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2013, 10:54:41 PM »
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6mp affordable FF back for my SWC.
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MoreOrLess
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« Reply #27 on: August 30, 2013, 02:18:12 AM »
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I'm wondering what form a modular MF mirrorless could take, maybe something similar to a Ricoh GXR M mount?
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #28 on: August 30, 2013, 02:30:03 AM »
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I'm wondering what form a modular MF mirrorless could take, maybe something similar to a Ricoh GXR M mount?
I also think that mirrorless would be an interesting concept for MF. Like the Pentax 645D was reusing guts of smaller APS-C DSLRs, one might expect a possible MF-MILF to be based on tried-and-true software and components from e.g. m43 models. Except the larger sensor and mount, of course.

Might not be really exciting until someone decide to develop an MF CMOS sensor that use comparable technology to state-of-the-art smaller sensors. If you are shooting wide-angle landscapes, architecture or macro, it might make more sense to pay for/carry a large sensor/lens, than the possibility to have fast PDAF tracking.

Would have been cool (although even less likely) to have CD-tilt (automated adoption of lense/sensor tilt in order to maximize sharpness of some part of the scene).

-h
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 02:32:48 AM by hjulenissen » Logged
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #29 on: August 30, 2013, 03:17:34 AM »
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Hi,

Why 6 MP? There are a lot of downsides to large pixels and no upsides. It is easy to downsample from small pixels and you get rid of a lot of artifacts.  I don't think we ever see 56x56 sensor, that market would be a tiny part of an MFD sektor that already is tiny.

Would the sensor of your dreams come true, I would guess that it would be some enthuasist's project using some surprul sensor from military, aerospace or medicine.

The SWC adds some complexity of it's own, as it has very wide chief ray angle, that works not so well with today's sensors. The Kodak sensors used in old Phase One backs and many others seem to work better with symmetric wide angle designs, like the Biogon, than the Dalsa designs in the Phase One backs.

Best regards
Erik

6mp affordable FF back for my SWC.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 02:00:30 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

bcooter
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« Reply #30 on: August 30, 2013, 04:39:53 AM »
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I'm not in the DMF market,.......snip

Another bonus of moving to an EVF camera is that the body could be shallow enough to allow a wide variety of lenses to be used via adaptors, including 35mm format lenses in some circumstances. (I understand that some longer focal length lenses produce image circles considerably larger than the format needs, so could add some affordable options for my fantasy 645LV camera.)

I was listening to a wall street journal article talking about cameras, especially smaller point and shoots and how that market is more difficult in regards to cell phone cameras.

One of the tech reporters said . . . not a direct quote . . . that the thing about cell phone cameras is they are more creative.

Think about that, because that really is the perception.  In camera stitching, instigram photoshop looks, (and many others) good video with stedicam smoothness, grips, additional lenses, the cell phone cameras do so pretty amazing stuff and you can post them online in moments.

I'm not saying all pro cameras have to make a phone call, but take into account what is considered a creative camera today and there is a lesson somewhere in there.

Last Friday night, after a week long shoot, we took clients and talent to a restaurant.  One of the models, a young kid model was sitting in the dark patio restaurant looking at his cell phone, playing a game and it was total darkness.  I shot it with my I phone and yes it was noisy, but then again it was pretty.

I think camera makers need to step out of the past and move towards the future.  Though it makes for a crappy camera, has anyone here ever shot a photo with an Ipad.  Amazing screen and kind of brings you back to view camera sized viewfinder.  When I did it I thought, how cool a pro camera with that big screen would be, especially with a lens set (either electronic or analog) and a full feature set of quick presets for look.

Now go one step further and think how cool a blackmagic camera, that shoots 4k video and stills would be if it was just one step higher in usbility with autofocus, steadishot, 4 dozen film looks and the ability to wireless send the previews to a server.

I think the day is coming and not to beat a dead horse, but the reason I've bought my last few cameras, RED's and the GH3's is they did something that other cameras didn't do.

That's what moved me and I like to think back as a traditionalist, but looking forward I can see a whole possibilities of technology that changes the way we work.



IMO

BC
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MoreOrLess
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« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2013, 06:14:07 AM »
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I also think that mirrorless would be an interesting concept for MF. Like the Pentax 645D was reusing guts of smaller APS-C DSLRs, one might expect a possible MF-MILF to be based on tried-and-true software and components from e.g. m43 models. Except the larger sensor and mount, of course.

Might not be really exciting until someone decide to develop an MF CMOS sensor that use comparable technology to state-of-the-art smaller sensors. If you are shooting wide-angle landscapes, architecture or macro, it might make more sense to pay for/carry a large sensor/lens, than the possibility to have fast PDAF tracking.

Would have been cool (although even less likely) to have CD-tilt (automated adoption of lense/sensor tilt in order to maximize sharpness of some part of the scene).

-h

Wouldn't really be anything that new either, you look at the MF film market and SLR's were much less dominant than they were for 35mm. You compare say a Pentax 645D to a FF DSLR and the mirrorbox is obviously adding more to the size beyond what would be considered ergonomically ideal by most people.

If Canon were to get involved with MF I wouldn't be supprized to see them take this route.
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BJL
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« Reply #32 on: August 30, 2013, 09:30:22 AM »
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I'm wondering what form a modular MF mirrorless could take, maybe something similar to a Ricoh GXR M mount?
I also think that mirrorless would be an interesting concept for MF. Like the Pentax 645D ...
Need I point out that Pentax is now a division of Ricoh? That team might be the best bet for innovative and relatively affordable camera systems in formats beyond 36x24mm.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #33 on: August 30, 2013, 02:06:01 PM »
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Hi,

Any sensor with large pixels yields aliasing artifacts. The color Moiré from bayer deigns is very obvious, but all digital sensors show aliasing if the lens outresolves the sensor. So, you either reduce pixel size or add an OLP filter.

Best regards
Erik


I do not know the technical details but it is well accepted as fact nowadays that all sensors that use a bayer filter need a good amount of pixel density to prevent undesirable artifacts like Moire from potentially degrading the image quality significantly.

I do not know if a full color high quality pixel is possible but if and when that happens then designers might have more flexibility in regards to sensor specifications. The Foveon sensor is a good start but I think it still has a long way to go. I would love to have a talk with Carver Mead about this one day.  Grin
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nik
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« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2013, 09:02:50 PM »
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Basically the mk II of this camera.

CMOS, (a *CLEAN* 1600) Live View, HD out, 802.11ac wireless built-in, USB 3, tilting LCD touchscreen. HDR & Focus Stacking (via C1). Availability of production model a week from official announcement / press release.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2013, 09:05:20 PM by nik » Logged
TMARK
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« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2013, 09:08:30 PM »
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A Mark II ZD could be the affordable entry level Phase/Leaf/Mamiya vehicle.  Maybe the guts and screen of a P+ back or a Leaf Aptus II/Mamiya DM series.  Take a bite out of the 645D, at least in Japan.

Basically the mk II of this camera.

CMOS, (a *CLEAN* 1600) Live View, HD out, 802.11ac wireless built-in, USB 3, tilting LCD touchscreen. HDR & Focus Stacking (via C1). Availability of production model a week from official announcement / press release.
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bcooter
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« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2013, 08:21:22 AM »
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A Mark II ZD could be the affordable entry level Phase/Leaf/Mamiya vehicle.  Maybe the guts and screen of a P+ back or a Leaf Aptus II/Mamiya DM series.  Take a bite out of the 645D, at least in Japan.


When I held a ZD in Japan when it first came out, I came close to buying it.  It reminded me so much of the Pentax 6x7.  Then I started reading the reviews, the issues, etc. and was glad I didn't.

There are so many past cameras that have littered the landscape, without ever being finished.  The ZD, the original Kodak backs that had a good lcd, shot to cards, had a decent software suite.  Same with the Leica module for the R9.  If it was full frame, or the Contax 35mm digital that died before they even sold it. 

I don't get spending all that time and resource into a camera and then not addressing the basic flaws.

IMO

BC
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pedro39photo
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« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2013, 10:06:48 AM »
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A ZD mk II its a great idea !!!

my list:

- Good 400-800 iso files
- Rolleiflex Twin-Lens monochrome with 36x36mm sensor to be affordable price 5000$
- Mamiya 6 or 7 Digital
- Please ! Please ! Please a 5000-7000$ DMF entry level model to bring new users to the MF
- Big viewfinders ( this its the biggest advantage of the MF for me) 
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sbernthal
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« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2013, 11:43:49 AM »
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I think this is part of the deal between Mamiya and Phase, that Mamiya provides the bodies and some of the lenses, and does not compete in the sensors arena.
So no ZD II will not be available ever, I'm pretty sure.
Phase basically controls Mamiya at this point, and it is not in their interest at all to have a low cost high quality camera available.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 11:46:13 AM by sbernthal » Logged
TMARK
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« Reply #39 on: September 02, 2013, 02:28:40 PM »
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I believe, and I may be wrong, that Phase does more than control Mamiya.  I believe that they own Mamiya, as they own Leaf.  A ZDII with the guts of an Aptus II-7 would be incredible.  But no one really understands what is going on behind the curtain.

I think this is part of the deal between Mamiya and Phase, that Mamiya provides the bodies and some of the lenses, and does not compete in the sensors arena.
So no ZD II will not be available ever, I'm pretty sure.
Phase basically controls Mamiya at this point, and it is not in their interest at all to have a low cost high quality camera available.
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