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Author Topic: I want to change my Pentax 645D system!  (Read 7863 times)
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2013, 06:56:53 PM »
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If you like you current camera and lenses, then I would also either wait for the 645DII or buy a second hand 645D as back up and have it checked in depth by Pentax.

The rumored D4x may also be worth considering since it seems likely to have an electronically switchable low pass filter. Another key value of the D4x (and its Canon equivalent whenever they decide to invest in sensor technology) may be the ability to use next gen lenses like the Zeiss 55mm f1.4. It seems pretty unlikely that lenses of that  caliber be ever designed for MF SLR bodies. The volumes are just too low.

The story is of course different if you intend to work with technical cameras.

Cheers,
Bernard
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sbernthal
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« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2013, 12:57:12 AM »
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If you're looking to the future to have good upgrade path and good support, I think getting a second Pentax is not the best way to go.
Pentax is a very limited system with few users and a limited growing path.
The most "live" system today is Phase One / Leaf.
It is the only system where you can upgrade any part of the system that you like independently.
Also it has the largest collection of lenses.
Look at the differences between P1 and Leaf - mostly functionality - you can get much better value with Leaf if you don't need live view.
You can get a used Leaf system and then pay $1000 per annum and be covered under warranty forever.
They still support their systems from 2005.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 12:58:49 AM by sbernthal » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2013, 04:23:42 AM »
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If you're looking to the future to have good upgrade path and good support, I think getting a second Pentax is not the best way to go.
Pentax is a very limited system with few users and a limited growing path.
The most "live" system today is Phase One / Leaf.

How can it be cheaper to invest in Phase/Leaf when upgrades typically cost 2 or 3 times the price of a new 645D body?

Do you have sales figures to back up your comment regarding the number of Pentax users vs Leaf/Phase?

The 645D is claimed by Pentax to have been a screaming success and I am willing to believe them seing how many I see in Japan and on this forum. Besides, there is still an important existing user base of film Pentax bodies. Those guys still own lenses and are bound to invest in the 645Dxx at some point of time if they have not done so yet.

Besides, the price point of the 645D is such that a significant number of high end DSLR users will keep considering the 645D family, while we are not interested in Leaf/Phasone because their backs with significant values are 4 to 5 times more expensive.

Cheers,
Bernard
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sbernthal
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« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2013, 04:33:30 AM »
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I am not aware of many professional photographers using Pentax. Perhaps there are, although I seriously doubt it.
As far as upgrade paths - you sell can get a module (back/body) on the second hand market and get another one also at the second hard market - that is significantly less expensive that doing it at the dealer's. You can always put it into warranty for $1000.
I have an Aptus II 10 that I bought second hand for $12000 and does 56MP. Sold the old one for $6500.
I can upgrade it at the dealer for about $14K to a new Credo 80 - top of the line.
I would say those are pretty good upgrade options, and doesn't seem to me 4 or 5 times more expensive than Pentax.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 04:52:26 AM by sbernthal » Logged
MrSmith
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« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2013, 05:10:39 AM »
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"The 645D is claimed by Pentax to have been a screaming success"

it would be even more of a success if there was a rock-solid and fast tethering option and well stocked rental in major cities. until that happens it will be a sideshow just like Leica and Rollei compared to phamiyablad which is a shame as it's a great camera.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #25 on: September 02, 2013, 05:12:10 AM »
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I can upgrade it at the dealer for about $14K to a new Credo 80 - top of the line.
I would say those are pretty good upgrade options, and doesn't seem to me 4 or 5 times more expensive than Pentax.

I wrote:
- Upgrade: 2 or 3 times more expensive than new 645D (2 in your case),
- New: 4 or 5 times more expensive than new 645D which you managed to bring down to 19,500 US$ (5,000 US$ + 14,000 U$) which is a bit less than 3 times.

I am sure you understand that not everyone is interested in having to jungle between used and upgrades to get a camera that still costs the price of a car.  Wink

Cheers,
Bernard
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sbernthal
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« Reply #26 on: September 02, 2013, 05:16:59 AM »
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I upgraded from 40mp to 60mp for $6000.
If I want to upgrade again to 80mp, I can do it for new at $14 in a couple of years, or to another used for $6000-10000 depending on what I get.

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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #27 on: September 02, 2013, 05:46:21 AM »
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I upgraded from 40mp to 60mp for $6000.
If I want to upgrade again to 80mp, I can do it for new at $14 in a couple of years, or to another used for $6000-10000 depending on what I get.

Ok, I understand better now. You got a good deal, it is still around the same price as a new 645D, right?

Cheers,
Bernard
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sbernthal
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« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2013, 11:34:41 AM »
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Yes, but you get a much better system.
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TMARK
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« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2013, 03:00:23 PM »
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I know several people who use or used the Pentax professionally. The ones who stopped using the Pentax did so due to buffer and tethering issues, went back to Canon or Nikon.  I would also point out that the DMF market is increasingly made up of enthusiasts, not commercial shooters.

I work for an agency.  I'm not an Art Buyer, AD or CD, but I work closely with them, and here is what I see:  I look at lots of files from lots of systems, mainly when they get back from the retoucher and copy is added. Proofs.  I can't tell the difference between any of them, for the most part.  Slight differences, sure, mainly due to a larger sensor or smaller sensor, or 2:3 versus 4:3.

Here is the dirty secret, from an agency point of view:  so long as it tethers well no one cares what camera is being used.  No one cares.  At all.  The IQ from any FF DSLR up to IQ280 is almost indistinguishable for (most) advertising.  Beauty is a notable exception, some very high end fashion as well.  What we look for is a look that matches the AD or CD's idea.  It can be general, with a specific shooter in mind, or it can be just a style.  We only hire people we know can execute whatever look we are after, usually represented by a mood board.  No one cares how they do it.  No one looks at a DMF camera and says:  "Look at that camera!  This guy must be a pro."  If we are paying $80,000 in fees and usage the shooter better be a pro, and believe me no one without significant experience and recommendations is EVER hired.  We trust who we hire to do their job as an independent contractor.  How s/he does it doesn't concern us.  What does concern us is that the camera tether.  Period. 

I like MF cameras.  I really like Leaf Aptus 75s files.  I regret selling mine.  I've handled the Pentax.  I like it.  I think it is a better camera than the Mamiya AFD3.  I think it is as good as the H, but you get a FP shutter so you can use whatever lens you want with an adapter. 

I am not aware of many professional photographers using Pentax. Perhaps there are, although I seriously doubt it.
As far as upgrade paths - you sell can get a module (back/body) on the second hand market and get another one also at the second hard market - that is significantly less expensive that doing it at the dealer's. You can always put it into warranty for $1000.
I have an Aptus II 10 that I bought second hand for $12000 and does 56MP. Sold the old one for $6500.
I can upgrade it at the dealer for about $14K to a new Credo 80 - top of the line.
I would say those are pretty good upgrade options, and doesn't seem to me 4 or 5 times more expensive than Pentax.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2013, 05:19:24 PM »
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Yes, but you get a much better system.

You get a different system.

The Pentax will offer a more SLR experience with a wider range of usage thanks to its rugdness, better high ISO, stabilization,...

The Leaf will enable usage on view cameras, access to higher resolutions when everything else is done perfectly and a different set of lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard
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wildlightphoto
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« Reply #31 on: September 02, 2013, 05:55:04 PM »
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I'd also consider getting a second body for $7K.

I would too.  I use a different camera system with similar repair turnaround.  3 to 4 months downtime will not do.  The system has been reliable but at times I do something stoopid and the camera or a lens has to go away for repair, or simple wear and tear makes a CLA prudent.  My backups were about $8k which is less than the $!0k you're looking at to switch systems.  Does that $10k include backup equipment?
« Last Edit: September 02, 2013, 06:01:05 PM by wildlightphoto » Logged
alatreille
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« Reply #32 on: September 02, 2013, 06:50:55 PM »
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Yes, but you get a much better system.

This is debatable, perhaps a 'different' system...

Variety is the spice of life.....
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bcroslin
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« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2013, 07:27:58 PM »
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I am not aware of many professional photographers using Pentax. Perhaps there are, although I seriously doubt it.

Funniest thing I've read all day....
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Bob Croslin, Photographer
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« Reply #34 on: September 03, 2013, 08:26:18 AM »
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You get a different system.

The Pentax will offer a more SLR experience with a wider range of usage thanks to its rugdness, better high ISO, stabilization,...

snip


Bernard, I think your coming from a different experience of not having client's stand behind you or the monitor, then you have to tether.  I've known two photographers use the Pentax, one is exceptional and loves the camera, hates the lack of tethering and the slow buffer and as T mentions, nobody cares in commercial production as long as you tether.

You can get away with not tethering if you have an AD that you've worked with for a long time, or an AD that trusts what your doing.  We tether a lot (which was the deal killer of the Pentax for me), also one of the reasons I bought a 1dx because it's amazingly solid with ethernet tethering into dpp ( I mean a weeks shooting without a crash solid) and an ethernet cord goes a long way so you don't have to have the tech station 12ft from you.

Personally I'd rather shoot to cards and let the client review a body of 20, 30 images rather than frame by frame, but most ADs don't want to work that way and I think a lot of spontaneity gets lost when your roped to a machine.    Though a lot of commercial work will never be considered great, think about some of the great photos of the past, Annie's John and Yoko, Herb Ritt's Richard Gere photo that started his career
I doubt if those images would have come from a committee standing at a computer station offering suggestions, but we live in a communal world.   For 10 years the catch phrase in our industry was "team", now it's "leader".   Don't know why, just know what I hear in meetings.

So maybe the Pentax non tethering is a better option.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 08:29:42 AM by bcooter » Logged

BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #35 on: September 03, 2013, 08:31:54 AM »
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Bernard, I think your coming from a different experience of not having client's stand behind you or the monitor, then you have to tether.  

Correct.

Cheers,
Bernard
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bcroslin
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« Reply #36 on: September 03, 2013, 09:14:36 AM »
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Regarding tethering with the Pentax: I'm tethering with an eyefi card to an iPad via wifi/ adhoc and it's absolutely no worse than tethering my P45+ to Capture 1 with a cable. I've done this for years with Canons. Simply hand the iPad to the AD and walk away. I can also just as easily set up the eyefi to connect wifi/ adhoc to a work station and setup Lightroom or Capture 1 to watch a hot folder. The range is EXACTLY the same: about 10-15ft. When there's a dog and pony show that needs to be produced so the client thinks I'm the real deal I'll hire a tech and rent an H5d or a Phase.

Now, I'm sure a IQ280 or 180 or whatever just blows my Pentax/ Canons away with IQ, dynamic range, sheer sexiness and the ability to make super models drool but my clients just don't care what's in my hands except that it works and delivers images they can use. The days of working photographers dropping $25k on a medium format system are over. It just doesn't make any sense with shrinking budgets and agencies that are going to take your fabulous 100 megapix image and resize it to 1600 px by 72 dpi for a web ad. I don't hate on anyone who drops that kind of cash on MFD but I do question their sanity - especially when I can rent a H5D with a few lenses for $600-$800/ day. Furthermore, like James mentioned, most of my friends doing high-end commercial work are shooting stills with Canons and then renting Red or Arri's for what the client really cares about: motion.

Anyway, back to the original subject of the thread: why not just buy a new 645D complete with new warranty and sell the old rig here or on eBay? You are not going to be any happier with a new Phase 1 or Hasselblad if you're already happy with the Pentax. If you're just itching for a new piece of gear and you've got money to burn go buy a new lens or something small that gives you the gratification and invest the money you'd drop on a Phase/ Hasselblad in your retirement account.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 10:12:35 AM by bcroslin » Logged

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bcooter
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« Reply #37 on: September 03, 2013, 10:18:38 AM »
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The days of working photographers dropping $25k on a medium format system are over.

As much as I like the dealers and reps on this forum, I have to agree.   Everybody in our industry has taken a big hit, even the famous and if our numbers go down, our required volume goes up, something has got to give.

There just isn't any float anymore in a budget, regardless of what is perceived.  Actually, we keep hearing of zero inflation, but the stuff we buy that is non industry specific like travel, locations, permits a lot of equipment, has gone up dramatically in price.

Even if budgets return, I doubt if I'll ever buy another still camera again, solely on pixel count.   Motion, well that's a different animal and motion is going through the same thing today.

On the eye fi- I've got em' use em' and with a network they're fine as long as the camera produces a jpeg, though straight from camera to Pad it's kind of iffy.  I do like tethering to a pad though, because it makes it more the AD and me rather than the AD, me and 10 others.


IMO

BC
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #38 on: September 03, 2013, 11:08:11 AM »
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The days of working photographers dropping $25k on a medium format system are over.

Funny. Nobody told that to the working photographers who keep dropping $25k (and more) on medium format systems with us.
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2013, 11:15:09 AM »
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Regarding tethering with the Pentax: I'm tethering with an eyefi card to an iPad via wifi/ adhoc and it's absolutely no worse than tethering my P45+ to Capture 1 with a cable. I've done this for years with Canons. Simply hand the iPad to the AD and walk away. I can also just as easily set up the eyefi to connect wifi/ adhoc to a work station and setup Lightroom or Capture 1 to watch a hot folder. The range is EXACTLY the same: about 10-15ft. When there's a dog and pony show that needs to be produced so the client thinks I'm the real deal I'll hire a tech and rent an H5d or a Phase.

Range for firewire with a good cable and a back that allows powering from the battery in the back (e.g. P+ or IQ/IQ2 or Credo) is 33ft.

But more importantly some photographers need more out of tethering than simply seeing the in-camera JPG. It sounds like maybe you don't for your style of shoot and your clients.

For instance when you're shooting tethered you can style the image in real time beyond the very basic controls offered by in-camera JPGs (if any, depending on camera model). For instance shooting to a high contrast black and white with a strong highlight shoulder and 30 points of clarity and a half stop of vignetting (while of course the underlying raw file remains, ready to be processed to a color image or any other variation). Or using the Overlay tool to show the image in a layout in real time (including with or without a crop) in a way that is a bit more dynamic/slick/useful than printing out an acetate version of the layout and gaffe taping it to the front of an iPad.

You can also pull selects in a way that is an integrated part of the workflow. That is, if someone (AD/you/stylist/whomever) says "I like that image" the image can be tagged 4-stars and that selection carries through the rest of the workflow automatically (as opposed to manually scrubbing through the iPad and reconciling the images they've tagged there with the entirely-separately-handled raw files on the computer).

These aren't dog-and-pony for many photographers but a core part of their needs. If they aren't your needs, and the Pentax Eye-fi works for you that's great, but it doesn't necessarily carry over to the needs of other photographers.
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