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Author Topic: Power to the People!!, Adobe Eat this!  (Read 9509 times)
John.Murray
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« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2013, 11:16:46 PM »
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Seriously, if you want the cost of intellectual property to go down, don't condone anyone that swipes it, regardless of their reason.

+10 (actually make that 27)

I recently setup new servers and workstations for a large printshop (Windows) and immediately ran into issues with new Win7 machines running CS3 and various incarnations of Illustrator - I'll give you "one" guess how many licenses they legitimately own....

I pointed out that, for them, the cost of CC is a *fraction* of the maintenance and ink on just one of their presses.....

I can't and won't criticize anyone who legitimately runs any version of software and their opinions, but BC makes a great point!
« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 11:37:10 PM by John.Murray » Logged

Dave (Isle of Skye)
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« Reply #41 on: September 07, 2013, 06:07:57 PM »
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And the root problem there is that the camera makers still refuse to have a raw file format standard. Every new camera forces all the software developers to decode the new raw file format and update their software. On the other hand, if there was a standard (such as DNG) new cameras would be supported in older software. Leica is a prime example...and new cameras Leica may produce use DNG as their raw file format and it's file supported in current and older software.

This problem is not one of Adobe's making...blame the camera makers.

So what you are saying Jeff, is that if one of the major camera manufacturers woke up and saw this opportunity and immediately started to release all their new cameras with a lossless DNG Raw capture option, then that camera manufacturer would instantly have a ready made market of Adobe disenfranchised photographers, who would then be willing to bias all their future purchasing towards that manufacturers products?

Hello Canon, are you listening, is there anyone at home?

But seriously, I totally agree, you have totally hit the nail on the head.

In a round about way, I think you have come up with a really good idea there Jeff, I just hope that someone connected to one of the major camera manufacturers is reading this thread and picks up this idea.

Dave
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 06:10:29 PM by Dave (Isle of Skye) » Logged

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Schewe
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« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2013, 06:25:07 PM »
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So what you are saying Jeff, is that if one of the major camera manufacturers woke up and saw this opportunity and immediately started to release all their new cameras with a lossless DNG Raw capture option, then that camera manufacturer would instantly have a ready made market of Adobe disenfranchised photographers, who would then be willing to bias all their future purchasing towards that manufacturers products?

Yep...the situation where new cameras force new versions of software because of proprietary, undocumented raw file formats is a big problem for the industry, regardless of what software you wish to use. Leica chose DNG and enjoys support in any software that supports DNG (and not just Adobe software). Forcing people to upgrade software and hardware because of new cameras is everybody's problem and has nothing to do with the "Adobe disenfranchised photographers"...and thanks to DNG Converter (created by Thomas Knoll for backwards compatibility), you can convert today's raw files and open them all the way back in Photoshop CS and Camera Raw 2.4.

Dave, not for nothing bud, but at some point I think you really need to move on...do you really want to keep this anti-Adobe stuff up forever? This whole thread seems based on a rather unhealthy premise...at some point ya gotta move on and get back to shooting. If you have Photoshop CS6 then you're fine for at least a few years...
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Manoli
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« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2013, 08:08:46 PM »
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This whole thread seems based on a rather unhealthy premise...at some point ya gotta move on and get back to shooting.

On that you're right, Jeff.

When the 'Cloud' was announced there was an understandable adverse reaction from the photo community. Now, Adobe Photoshop customers have been given a 50% discount on the original pricing plus Lightroom for free. It's not perfect, but much better than zilch.

At the outset, it was clear that the only way forward, if you were unhappy, was to talk (with the wallet) and walk. There are at least 5 recent threads, plus one (that I started, on the alternatives). The statistics:

complaints, clarifications & rants - 12,000 views | 420 posts
alternative suggestions and plans - 300 views | 4 replies

I know what I would be thinking if I was Adobe ...     
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ButchM
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« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2013, 09:57:55 PM »
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Thankfully, my clients don't hire me because I can come in with the lowest bid. They hire me because I offer them the product they desire or require at a fair price. Not because I offer a bargain basement price with an expiration date.

I just don't know why some folks can't grasp the concept ... For me, it is NOT now ... nor has it ever been about the PRICE of CC that has deterred me from subscribing to CC ... I could very easily afford the price of a full $50 per month subscription to CC ... even higher if need be ... I have never flinched about the COST OF DOING BUSINESS ... it is whatever it is and you move forward working within those parameters .... Though that expenditure MUST show a return for the investment made. Speculation on that return is just too costly when you have to pay in advance for a "Pig in a Poke" ...

My problem with the CC licensing model is ROI .... RETURN ON INVESTMENT ... and honestly ... there is currently NOTHING in Photoshop CC or Lightroom 5 that would enhance MY bottom line beyond what I can accomplish with the perpetual licensed software I already own. There is zero motivation to sign up only to enhance Adobe's profits today .. that may or may not see a return for me tomorrow. At ANY price. If anything, the direction the Adobe executives have steered development of their products over the past few years is they are definitely worried more about profits ... and much less about increased functionality of the products they produce.

I could very easily afford this new subscription offer that Adobe has made ... Currently ... the only accomplishment that would be ensured is that Adobe's bank account would increase by the same amount my bank account would decrease ... THAT is NOT a return on investment ... but merely a contribution to a software developer that would in no way enhance MY profitability ...

In the end, if I purchased EVERY item I could afford ... it would only ensure I would have a much lower balance in MY bank account ... It would NEVER ensure that I would be more profitable ... Adobe has to demonstrate a more balanced effort that THEY will indeed move forward in a more significant manor than they have done in the past to prove their worthiness of a perpetual investment. I have zero blind trust that Adobe has MY best interests at heart. In fact I have zero trust in them at all.

If Adobe wishes to have me among the supposed throngs of users who can't wait to be on the CC subscription hook, they better come up with more than Camera Shake tool ... or a Slideshow module that is a total joke or a Book module that is Blurb only solution ... thus rendering both modules to virtually useless wasted space of ones's and zero's on my HD.

I'll gladly INVEST in a developer's efforts ... IF ... I can see a future beyond a 30 day expiration date for the privilege of use.

It's all about the MERIT system ... if you offer a product that is superior and worthy of investment ... you really don't need to force users to SUBSCRIBE to it ... they will seek you out, crash down your doors to be a part of the process then reward you commensurately ... there wouldn't be a need to force it down their throats ... even at a discount.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2013, 10:01:26 PM by ButchM » Logged
Dave (Isle of Skye)
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« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2013, 03:02:52 AM »
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Dave, not for nothing bud, but at some point I think you really need to move on...do you really want to keep this anti-Adobe stuff up forever? This whole thread seems based on a rather unhealthy premise...at some point ya gotta move on and get back to shooting. If you have Photoshop CS6 then you're fine for at least a few years...

Yes I have CS6 and I will take your advice Jeff, because I too am heartily fed-up with this whole thing now, moving on  Grin

Dave
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Morris Taub
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« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2013, 05:50:23 AM »
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Yes I have CS6 and I will take your advice Jeff, because I too am heartily fed-up with this whole thing now, moving on  Grin

Dave

I don't know Dave, you've added some interesting info for us...if you want to add more or just vent it's ok with me.
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sniper
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« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2013, 06:52:26 AM »
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Comon guys, boycotting is childish!

This being said, I am not sure that 9.99 US$ changes anything.

It for sure is a more reasonnable price point, one that is probably closer to what I used to be spending... but the lack of exit strategy remains.

So, as far as I am concerned, the answer continues to be focused on looking for alternatives to Photoshop till my CS6 instance becomes unusable.

"looking for alternatives" meaning buying licenses from those alternative sofwares to fund the development of these software, several in parallel up to the amount I would be paying to Adobe on CC.

Cheers,
Bernard


No it's not, it's showing our feeling about the product by shutting off cash they would have got.
They won't listen to the comments of their users, so maybe they will listen when the bank ballance suffers, if they don't then they lose out in the end. 
I can work quite happily with CS6 and LR4.
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Dave (Isle of Skye)
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« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2013, 04:24:07 PM »
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I don't know Dave, you've added some interesting info for us...if you want to add more or just vent it's ok with me.

Thanks Morris, it is good to know someone has been listening to my blatherings, but I fear the battle is now lost and defeat has been snatched from the jaws of victory, because it’s plain to see from the many comments on this and other fora, that people cannot see past that low sign up price and are willing to forget about everything else they were complaining about as a result. Will they still see it as a good deal in the future, who knows, they might well do so and if they do then good luck to them I say, but I think Jeff is right in this instance, because for the reducing minority of us to keep carping on about this whole affair and how we don’t agree with it, will only begin to look like sour grapes on our part. Whether we were right or whether Adobe was right will sort itself out in the end, as things always have a tendency to do when given enough time and with plenty of hindsight, but for now I think the battle is over, we tried because we thought we were right, but we lost because people couldn’t see past $9.99 a month.

C'est la vie  Cry

Dave
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Morris Taub
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« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2013, 04:48:49 AM »
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Thanks Morris, it is good to know someone has been listening to my blatherings, but I fear the battle is now lost and defeat has been snatched from the jaws of victory, because it’s plain to see from the many comments on this and other fora, that people cannot see past that low sign up price and are willing to forget about everything else they were complaining about as a result. Will they still see it as a good deal in the future, who knows, they might well do so and if they do then good luck to them I say, but I think Jeff is right in this instance, because for the reducing minority of us to keep carping on about this whole affair and how we don’t agree with it, will only begin to look like sour grapes on our part. Whether we were right or whether Adobe was right will sort itself out in the end, as things always have a tendency to do when given enough time and with plenty of hindsight, but for now I think the battle is over, we tried because we thought we were right, but we lost because people couldn’t see past $9.99 a month.

C'est la vie  Cry

Dave

I kinda agree with Jeff too. Say your piece/peace, move on. But as you pointed out, it's an emotional war inside for some of us. So, I feel if you need to vent, vent. I've been reading all this with some anxiety and disgust and just working and waiting to see it all unfold.

I'll do what's right for me down the road. See/read the actual offer. Hope it makes some sense as these days adobe language is anything but clear and to the point. I guess the european prices will be more like 15 euros a month, still a slight increase over what I'd have paid before for upgrades. I might try for a year and jump ship if I'm not happy. Still, I don't like the monthly link to my bank account. Don't like what I see as greed. Don't like not having a choice when a choice can be made available. And on and on...

Still not happy about being 'fooled' into upgrading from CS5 to CS6 so I could supposedly have the 'right' to upgrade later to CS7 (as they changed the policy about upgrading), a version of photoshop which will never see the light of day...

and maybe it's not my place, but how many billions in profit does a company need to make before it's content?...seems like it's never enough...whatever...

kind regards

Morris

and yes, c'est la vie...
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 05:07:40 AM by Morris Taub » Logged

Rhossydd
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« Reply #50 on: September 09, 2013, 05:04:39 AM »
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I fear the battle is now lost and defeat has been snatched from the jaws of victory,
Things have changed once, they'll change again. If everyone rolls over and falls into line there'll be no reason to improve future offers.

If people stick with what they've got and think carefully what real benefit they get from subscription and not choose to buy into it now, maybe there'll be better offers at some future point.
Right now I can't see why moving to CC makes any sense for me either financially or from using newer software.
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SunnyUK
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« Reply #51 on: September 09, 2013, 06:01:43 AM »
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I understand the issue about an exit strategy. It's definitely not an insignificant issue. But it's a bridge than can be crossed later, I don't have to figure it out now - as long as I figure it out before terminating the monthly CC payment.

With that in mind, and given that I'm currently on CS5 and LR4, this sounds like a great deal to me. I look forward to it becoming available and can hardly wait to sign up.
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jeremyrh
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« Reply #52 on: September 09, 2013, 08:16:02 AM »
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Not if you save a JPEG <g>.
Or I suppose you could use the manufacturer's software to make a TIFF and then open that in whatever PS you have ?
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Rhossydd
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« Reply #53 on: September 09, 2013, 02:32:42 PM »
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And the root problem there is that the camera makers still refuse to have a raw file format standard. Every new camera forces all the software developers to decode the new raw file format and update their software. On the other hand, if there was a standard (such as DNG) new cameras would be supported in older software.
This problem is not one of Adobe's making...blame the camera makers.
I wonder if it actually suits Adobe in some ways ?
Whilst there are continual new formats, there will be upgrades to be sold.
If every manufacturer used the same format there'd be fewer upgrades and then how much longer would the perpetual licence work for LR ?
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digitaldog
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« Reply #54 on: September 09, 2013, 03:00:22 PM »
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If every manufacturer used the same format there'd be fewer upgrades and then how much longer would the perpetual licence work for LR ?

Since nearly all the manufacturer's have an option to produce a JPEG, I suggest your suspicion’s don't wash. That WE don't want to use that open, a highly supported format for obvious reasons, we want raw, I think the answer is quite clear. IOW, anyone with a DSLR that comes out tomorrow but set's it to JPEG can access that image in Photoshop 1! How is it a benefit to that user OR Adobe if instead they switch the camera to raw? Answer: It isn't.
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Andrew Rodney
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robgo2
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« Reply #55 on: September 13, 2013, 10:49:50 AM »
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$9.99.

A bad deal?   Come on.  has anybody added up how much it costs to do anything for $9.99.   Movie tickets are $13 for 90 minutes.

I'll tell you a bad deal.  Buying thunderbolt to firewire cords for a $9.99 an inch.

Seriously, if you want the cost of intellectual property to go down, don't condone anyone that swipes it, regardless of their reason.

IMO

BC




The problem is not so much the price as it is the chains that will bind you to maintain your subscription until the end of time, that is if you want to continue using the software with which you have edited thousands of images.  With the perpetual license model, you only have to upgrade if and when your computer's OS will no longer support the version of PS that you have been using.  For many people, that will occur infrequently, if ever.

Rob
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JohnAONeill
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« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2013, 06:40:58 PM »
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For this price I think it's strange if you still think that adobe is dong something bad.
It's the best imaging software at the moment, everyone wants it but a lot of people were never able to afford it, now you have Lightroom and photoshop for the price of 2 Starbucks coffees a month. Come on.

Until the day comes that you no longer wish to pay the subscription. Then you will be locked out of your psd files forever! Adobe can count me out of this pay on tap system. After a decade of paying upgrades every year and sometimes paying twice for mac and pc versions, I will now look for alternatives! I want choice for my business. I want to upgrade when I think and upgrade is worth it and not because I get locked out when the payments stop. If I'm having a bad month I don't want to worry about payments to adobe on top of all my other business costs. When Adobe said they listened to their customers they must have had the hearing aid turned off!
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digitaldog
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« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2013, 06:50:12 PM »
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Until the day comes that you no longer wish to pay the subscription. Then you will be locked out of your psd files forever!
That is absolutely false!
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Andrew Rodney
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JohnAONeill
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« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2013, 07:24:34 PM »
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That is absolutely false!

No it's not absolutely false. I need a working copy of PS to open my psd files. When you stop the payments you can no longer use Photoshop!
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Isaac
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« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2013, 07:35:31 PM »
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Refinement of support for PSD files in GIMP
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