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Author Topic: Question about Hvlp spraying of Timeless  (Read 2542 times)
BernardLanguillier
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« on: September 08, 2013, 05:45:02 AM »
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Dear canvas experts,

I am upgrading my canvas practise by moving from Glamor II + roll to Timeless + Hvlp spraying. The target canvas remains Lyve.

I have invested in a Fuji Gold 3 Hvlp gun that seems to work well.

I have been trying to follow thevrecommendations in terms of distance to canvas (20+ cm), speed (1 ft/sec) and shape of spray.

But I am having a bit of a hard time finding the perfect compromise between the amount of fluid and air.

I would be interested in any recommendations on this.

Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard
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Paul2660
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« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2013, 09:45:59 AM »
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Bernard:

I don't use the Fuji, (have looked into them, but currently can't justify the cost and really need to have a demo), but instead I use the Wagner Control Spray Plus.  Much more basic gun.

With Timeless, the main issue I have found is the quick drying time.  So when spraying a larger canvas, say 36 x 72, it can be a bit harder to get a perfectly even coat.  The Wagner has a simple control screw that allows you to adjust the mount of Timeless, I don't believe there is a air adjustment instead it's constant.  I try to get the flow of Timeless such that I see a fan of about 12 to 14" in width when I am approximately 12" from the face of the print.  I still have a problem with Timeless of uneven coating, where it's possible to see areas on the face of the print where I either came just a bit too close or backed off and the coating is not even.  This only happens to me on the prints larger than 30 x 45 since my spray booth forces me to have anything larger in only the vertical position.    Because of this, I have started spraying the larger prints with Glamour II since it self levels and has a bit longer drying time than Timeless.  Timeless does not self level (I have been told this by BC) but I still prefer it's glossy look over Glamour II. 

The only other thing I can think of is make sure you keep the gun open during all passes, not releasing the trigger until done.  Helps to keep the flow even (at least with the Wagner).

Paul Caldwell
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Paul Caldwell
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BillK
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« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2013, 10:04:48 AM »
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Curious why you would switch from Glamour II to Timeless.
I have both rolled and sprayed Timeless and Sprayed Glamour II and I would never go back to Timeless.
I never tried to roll Glamour II, so there may be an issue there that I am not aware of.

Quite a while back I read some posts here by "bill t." regarding spraying Glamour II so I decided to give it a try.
At the time I was using timeless. Boy am I glad I made the change, It is far easier to obtain consistent results
spraying Glamour II than Timeless. Most spraying imperfections seem to disappear when Glamour II dries, not so
with Timeless.

I have a Fuji Q4 HVLP system and can tell you I have the needle adjustment 1 turn out and the air valve on the end of the hose 1/2
open. This seems to work fine when using glamour II, thinned 45/50% with water. Since Timeless is thicker, and I seem to recall they don't
recommend thinning it much, you would probably need the needle adjustment turned out more and more air.

I wasn't using the fuji system when I was spraying Timeless, so can only guess at the settings. I have been spraying with cup type guns for over 30 years
and have to say the fuji system is one of the best I have ever used, so you have a great setup. Wish I could give you the correct settings for Timeless,
but if it were me, I would ditch the Timeless and start spraying Glamour II. I know Breathing Color says Timeless is the latest and greatest, I have not found that to be the case.


Bill
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2013, 02:14:48 AM »
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Hi Paul and Bill,

Thanks a lot for your detailed answers, much appreciated!

Cheers,
Bernard
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nihil
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« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2013, 06:47:28 AM »
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Concerning Glamour II vs Timeless; Timeless is marketed as having UV inhibitors, whereas Glamour II isn't as far as I can see.
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Erlend Mørk
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« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2013, 07:16:13 AM »
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I'm told by BC that Glamour II does indeed provide UV protection as well.

I think the key selling (marketing) point of Timeless is not having to dilute/cut the solution, making it easier to apply particularly for those not spraying canvas frequently.  It's "ready-to-use."  Once you have your desired ratios of Glamour II to water dialed in (as well as mixes of GII gloss : GII matte), I find Glamour II much easier to use on canvas (hvlp).

ken
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nihil
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« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2013, 07:49:58 AM »
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I'm told by BC that Glamour II does indeed provide UV protection as well.

Are you sure? Because in my experience no acid-free, anti-uv, ++ product will lack this information. It will be very very visible. I think that if Glamour II had UV protection they wouldn't hesitate a second to market it as such. If it isn't the issue won't be mentioned at all.
But when you personally talk to them, the manufacturers will often tell you what you want to hear. (such as claiming that a cellulose-paper is cotton rag in my experience) Or at least tweak the truth a little bit..
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Erlend Mørk
Paul2660
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« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2013, 03:19:03 PM »
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The whole issue do the UV inhibitors was one of the reasons I switched to timeless.  As I understand it BC  makes timeless and they distribute Glamour II.  A while back I tried to find out who made GII but never could locate the company.  As far as I know BC. Is the only place to purchase GII. 

I agree that most companies place UV blocking info very visibly on products and GII has no mention.  I am moving back to GII for larger prints bigger than 30  x 45 since I have a real problem with Timeless drying too fast and leaving streaking from my not getting the spraying perfectly even.  GII is self leveling and a bit more forgiving but I still prefer the look of Timeless.  For me it's a better gloss and I feel more durable.

Paul Caldwell
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #8 on: September 12, 2013, 07:20:56 PM »
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I think I read somewhere on the BC site that diluting Timeless 10% with distilled water may help with HVLP spraying.

Has anyone tried that?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard
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kdphotography
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« Reply #9 on: September 12, 2013, 10:58:52 PM »
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I think I read somewhere on the BC site that diluting Timeless 10% with distilled water may help with HVLP spraying.

Has anyone tried that?

Thanks.

Cheers,
Bernard

Yes---this is true, it does help.  But imo, if I need to dilute the mixture, it's no different than Glamour II as far as preparation for spraying by HVLP.  It defeats the purpose of BC's marketing Timeless as "ready-to-use" which presumably is part of the reason Timeless costs more than Glamour II.

ken
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Stephen G
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« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2013, 09:28:16 AM »
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I coated a sheet of cheap OBA-rich canvas with both Timeless and Clearstar Clearshield (just strips of coating, side by side). The latter advertises its UV inhibitors.

In bright sunlight the canvas under the Clearshield looks yellowish, kinda what you'd expect if the OBAs were blocked. The canvas under the Timeless was unchanged: still bright white. I'd say Timeless does not block UV, or at least not nearly as effectively as Clearshield.

I've also started spraying Timeless recently and can sympathize: it's hard to get the airflow / fluid mix right. Even when you do it can change mid-job as small amounts of Timeless dry on the needle, changing the flow rates. This happens when I have to stop spraying, remove a print from my board and go and hang it up in the drying room. Not long, but long enough for the varnish to clog things up a little. I'm going to try diluting it next - just the suggested 10%.
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2013, 11:19:23 AM »
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Bernard,
Wish you were closer here in the states for a little one on one in the spray booth.
The combination of proper equipment paired with proper technique and all of these issues you and others are having just go away.
I do not use any of the Wagner or Fuji spray systems so cannot comment on either. You will find many folks here use both with excellent results.
I personally use professional Binks HVLP spray systems in my spray booth. Not necessary for canvas spraying but it sure makes it easy.
Setting the proper pressure in combination with fluid output should give you a nice evenly spread fan.
 Once you have that you spray nice even coverage with 25 to 50% overlap.
Canvas hung or pinned to a backer that is standing up not laying flat gives the best results and eliminates any dirt or crud settling into the finish.
 You will have a learning curve for a short time but once you get the hang of it spraying without runs or sags will be second nature.

Paul,
For me Timeless and Glamor (Diluted) both spray the same. Have never used water in Timeless as my Binks system sprays the product nicely.
It is all about viscosity and the proper gun settings and once you have those dialed in you should lay down a perfect finish every time.
Timeless dries faster then Glamor but should not affect the final output as it does not dry that fast.
If you have your fluid cut back too hard and are getting a misty overspray type of finish, open up that fluid nozzle.
 If you have the proper wet on wet overlap coverage your final output should almost be perfect.
I also strain my finish when pouring finish material into my pressure pot.
 These products can get all types of scum and some splatters can make cleanup and an extra coat necessary.

Having spent 10 to 15 hours a week for 26 years in my cabinetry firms spray booth as a professional finisher I probably take a good finish for granted.
It does take a while to get the hang of laying down a perfect finish but once you do it will become automatic and you will not give it much thought anymore.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2013, 11:26:23 AM by Dan Berg » Logged

Paul2660
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« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2013, 12:07:18 PM »
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Dan,

Thanks for the tips, what Binks HLVP are you using/and does it come with a integrated compressor?  I have looked at the Fuji Minimite 3, or the gold version but have so far shied away due to cost.  Canvas is only about 1/3 of my business.  Plus until the 2013 lots of Crystalline started to ship I was very happy with Crystalline Canvas (glossy) for all my glossy canvas jobs.  Now the 2013 lots just don't have the same glossy finish to me at least with the 9900. 

Have you looked at the Fuji systems? 

Currently I am using the Wagner Control spray plus and the adjustments are really pretty basic.  I might be getting the overspray issue you mention and on my next spraying will open the gun a bit more.  It's just not very precise in adjustment. I still prefer the glossy look of timeless over GII and feel it's a stronger finish.  As for the UV, not sure, but at least the can mentions it. 


Sincerely
Paul Caldwell
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Paul Caldwell
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2013, 12:15:30 PM »
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Paul,
I am using the Binks Mach 1 with 2 quart pressure pot. It requires a separate air compressor.
Have not looked at any other systems as what I am using is pretty much the top of the line for automotive and cabinetry spray applications.
Really overkill for canvas but it is what I have and am very familiar with.
What is the cost of a Fuji system?
I think once you upgrade your equipment your problems should go away.


Have you thought about going to one of your Sherwin Williams stores for a demo?
Since it is a water based product they might not mind running some through for a test.
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Paul2660
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« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2013, 03:00:53 PM »
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Dan

Here is link to the fuji systems.  The mini mite  3 and 4 are two main ones I am considering.  The good versions are shipped with a quieter compressor which I really don't have to have.  But part of me wants.

http://www.phelpsrefinishing.com/MM3.html

The 3 gold is about the same cost as the binks gun only. 

Paul Caldwell
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Paul Caldwell
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2013, 05:17:40 PM »
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Paul,

Looks like a real nice package.
One of those investments that should last a life time.

Once you get your settings down with the new gun you are almost there. The biggest issue I see with spraying these products is keeping the tip clean. All the small air holes have to be kept open. The fluid needle wants to clog as well. Keep your tip in good shape and you will have the perfect spray pattern.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #16 on: September 15, 2013, 06:31:33 PM »
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Thanks a lot for your inputs Dan!

Stephen, I have also noticed that the behaviour can change between spraying sessions 15-20 minutes apart (in a pretty humid environment like the one in Tokyo this time of the year). I intend to try spraying in a waste pot at full air for a few secs to clean up the nozzle before proceeding to next pass, but it is difficult to reset the airflow of the Fuji Gold 3 very accurately, the only drawback I have found so far.

Anyway, I probably just need to play with it some more, but it ends up being very expensive trials...

Cheers,
Bernard
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Mike Guilbault
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« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2014, 02:38:02 PM »
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Any updates on the best adjustments for the FujiSpray Mini-Might 3 spray gun using Timeless.  I've got my spray room set up and ready to try but really don't know where to start with settings.  I'm using the gravity feed gun if that makes a difference. 
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shadowblade
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« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2014, 01:20:26 AM »
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Re: getting an even coating with Timeless

After a few experiments, I found that diluting it with distilled water at 1 part water to 4 parts Timeless, plus a drop of Edwal LFN (used in film development) works wonders. It slows the drying time (not as slow as Glamour II though) and you get a much more even coating.
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