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Author Topic: CC PS+ LR for photographers : why limit it to the owners of previous Photoshops?  (Read 7886 times)
chez
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« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2013, 08:24:12 AM »
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Jeff is right here. Often, You cannot re-sell your "purchased" software because it was not "purchased" technically, rather "licensed for a specificuse". These EULA areso well writtenthese days. Furthermore, reselling hardware that has embedded software follow the same rules. Technically, Apple can issue a cease-and-desist for every reseller of iPhones, for example. Users have the right to resell the hardware, but not the accompanying software (iOS).

That said, we expect businesses to do the "right" thing, and not alienate their user base. Adobe can't miss a beat these days, they keep alienating their base. Even when trying to "do it right" with the $9.99 offer for "photographers".  We later learned that it is not for photographers technically, but rather for previous owners of PS (CS3 and above). Not all photographers own PS. Many will become photogaphers in the near future. They cannot use the "photographer offer".

Bottom line: Adobe still can't figure out how they grow without alienating their base. We've all seen how this play in the long run.

I don't see this $10 offer as alienating their user base, but rewarding their loyal customers with a discounted offer. New photographers still can get on the CC for PS, they'll just have to pay a little more. They are not alienated at all. Some people view this world through a half full cup I guess.
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michael
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« Reply #21 on: September 15, 2013, 09:04:44 AM »
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Why can't we just accept that different people have differing needs, wants and abilities.

As I noted in my recent essay Won Over the The Cloudy Side, I bought the $29.95 bundle because I decided to switch from Final Cut X to Premiere Pro 6 for my video editing. This means I got Premiere for just $20 more than the "photographers" bundle, which gave me Photoshop and Lightroom.

But now a week has gone by and my dock also has Prelude, Supergrade, and Audition, three powerful and useful programs that I can use, and which I know I would have been reluctant to buy. And for when there's the time and the need, there'll be Illustrator and InDesign (which I haven't upgraded in years, and now I get the latest "free").

By coincidence, as I was writing this I got an email asking for an important legal document to be sent as a signed PDF. So I simply downloaded Acrobat Xi Pro a few hundred dollars saved, that I would otherwise have to have spent this morning.

So for me, having access to all of Adobe's 25 or more professional imaging apps looks like a total no-brainer. No regrets whatsoever.

The whole issue of "I'll lose access to my files" is a red herring of the first magnitude. No one is going to come and pull the plug overnight. There's time to plan, if one finds oneself in the position that $30 is beyond one's means it likely isn't going to happen overnight.

My stills images, when I'm done working on them, are backed up regularly to DNG, and also to TIFFs. My video projects are saved as full resolution .MOV files. I really don't go back often and change things months or years later, but when I do there are countless ways to do so with other software products.

I have many subscriptions that cost far more than Adobe CC. My cell phone bill, regularly in the hundreds. My cable bill, regularly in the hundreds, my car insurance...don't ask. My home insurance, XM Satellite in the car, and so on and so on. (The only bargain subscription in my life at the moment seems to be Netflix. The deal of the century.)

$30 or even $50 per month is a minor cost of doing business for anyone in image processing professionally, and, I would argue, a relative bargain given that there are some of the best and most expensive production tools available in the CC offering if and when one needs them.

For the amateur on a budget and with limited needs, it's likely not a good idea. So don't do it!!! Find inexpensive software tools that you like and can use.

End of story, at least to my limited imagination. The arguments are really tedious and likely unnecessary. Just get on with your lives.

Michael
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Manoli
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« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2013, 09:56:16 AM »
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.. a minor cost of doing business for anyone in image processing professionally, ..
For the amateur on a budget and with limited needs, it's likely not a good idea. So don't do it!!! Find inexpensive software tools that you like and can use.

Excellent summation.

End of story, at least to my limited imagination. The arguments are really tedious and likely unnecessary. Just get on with your lives.

That the arguments are tedious, they now are.
But no-one, I repeat no-one has ever benefited from a de-facto unregulated monopoly, in the long-term.
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« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2013, 01:58:31 PM »
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$30 or even $50 per month is a minor cost of doing business for anyone in image processing professionally, and, I would argue, a relative bargain given that there are some of the best and most expensive production tools available in the CC offering if and when one needs them.
In one of the other threads on CC pricing, someone who runs a small design studio did an interesting breakdown of the costs of his firm moving to CC and it was markedly more expensive to do so when compared to buying perpetual licences by need.
BTW here in the UK it's $75 for CC or $103 for team licences.
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« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2013, 01:59:59 PM »
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This means I got Premiere for just $20 more than the "photographers" bundle, which gave me Photoshop and Lightroom.

Another way of looking at it is that you got it for 5 times the price of the photographer's bundle, from next year onwards. But given how many applications you'll be using, it seems like a good deal financially for you in any case. For me as a (graduate) student, it's just the opposite, because for us the price has immediately double or tripled. Horses for courses.
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2013, 04:37:21 PM »
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Sorry...but the odds are real good in the case of Ebay and Amazon (not Amazon direct) the "used" or OEM software you buy is bogus and pirated...

To be clear, it's real difficult to buy legit used software...the seller has to jump through hoops and sign a "letter of destruction" (LOD) and the new buyer needs to register the software to be able to move forward with upgrades. Many users sell off an upgrade as a full version or sell their full version after upgrading their license. Both of which are bogus...

Yes, there was a market for used software, but by and large it was grey or black market and resulted in the buyer getting burned...

And, yes, that will be irrevocably changed with Adobe selling subscriptions...personally, I have no problem with bogus and pirated software getting screwed by the subscription model.

Software is, at it's root, intellectual property
and as an author of IP (photos, software and books) illegal pirating is a scourge...

Buying "used software" is nowhere close to buying tangible personal property...it's far more complicated and more likely to be a shady deal.

1.  This will be a fun one to respond to..   especially given your noted  take on the subject.    To be clear "real good" is not a tangible nor specific hook to hang your hat on.  Amazon and Ebay both have published policies against such software and while we all know pirated and grey/black/green software is a problem, this doesn't take away from the huge amount of legit used software being sold.  It's like saying fake Ferrari's with MR2 chassis are a known problem selling on ebay, all the used Ferrari's aren't selling.   We could then explore black/grey market cameras and equipment.. doesn't take away from the new gear selling.  In short Mr. Shewe, you cannot claim one thing is not happening by claiming another thing is.  Even if it is.   But still, it's a good thing both Amazon and Ebay protect their sellers from such things. providing they follow the rules.

2.  Agreed, Adobe and some others have made these letters "policy", very few other software makers go to that extent and Adobe is really not the only software title sold.  As a buyer you educate yourself and then go shopping.  Not everyone registers their software.  I'd guess until "activation" became mandatory very few did as registering was just another way for developers to collect marketing information on their clients.  Shady practice IMO.  But activation gave them a legit reason to collect this information and a way to enforce new policies on used software.  I think if you're even halfway fair you'll find Adobe has been the market leader in abusive and shady software practices.. some of which we've mentioned here and others such as selective enforcement and actually promoting piracy I won't go into here though others might remember me mentioning it before.

3.  No no.  You're not going to convince anyone "by and large" all used software is grey or black market and the buyer gets burned.  I'm surprised you'd try and get away with that comment. Well.. unless you've never been in a used software store?  Bought legit used software? Been buying too much software from your email junk box advertising?  I've been in far too many used software stores being run as legit businesses to fall for that one.  But sure, if you're buying software from shady sources you're 'by and large' going to end up with black/grey software.

4.  Sorry Mr Shewe.  It will only change with Adobe. Providing Adobe is successful with this model which I don't believe it will be. Only time will tell. 

And please, stop throwing "pirated software" against the way on every point you make to see if it sticks.  It's not.  It just slides down obfuscating the paint underneath.  Virtually everything is pirated these days, memory cards, camera accessories, cars, baseball cards, sports memorabilia, old Coca Cola products, clothes, handbags, car parts, hybrid seeds, bull sperm, horse zygotes, coffee, Viagra, condoms, coca cola itself, tires, clothes, shoes, CPU's, RAM,  and pages and pages more.  But each and every one of these products being pirated.. have legit markets.  AS DOES used software.

5.  There you go with pirating again.. geez.  Let's take your own examples, books, photos and software.. wait a minute.. SOFTWARE.  Yes.  It's a legit market, you sell it yourself.  Used software is too.   

6.  Actually Mr. Shewe it's very similar.  There are grey and black camera and lens an accessory sales going on right now.  Every reputable camera store I know of sells at least the grey versions.  Doesn't mean they're getting screwed or that it's a shady deal.  B&H would have a problem if you categorized their grey market products as such.. wonder if the sell software.. uhmm.. 


You entire post is just a rant against piracy and had very little to do with the used software market at all.  If you would have stopped trying to show there was some difference between used software and used everything else as it relates to piracy I'd have been jumping on your wagon.  All of us here agree.. or we should.. piracy is bad.  What we all won't agree on is what constitutes piracy because copyright is very much an evolving definition being battled in the courts as we speak.. because some big businesses and small time thugs lack morals and to them the only crime is not making every dollar they can. 
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #26 on: September 15, 2013, 04:38:59 PM »
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No, not really.
 

OK, don't believe me.  Believe Jeff, who responded after me.  Or not.....

Obfuscation.

Heavy sigh.  More obfuscation.

1.  See my response to Jeff.

2.   Yes, answering a question with another questions is a great example of obfuscation.  Thank you.
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« Reply #27 on: September 15, 2013, 04:57:14 PM »
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Another way of looking at it is that you got it for 5 times the price of the photographer's bundle, from next year onwards. But given how many applications you'll be using, it seems like a good deal financially for you in any case. For me as a (graduate) student, it's just the opposite, because for us the price has immediately double or tripled. Horses for courses.

Exactly.. and this is the point I was making in my article.  There are segments of our profession getting whacked in the hienie (in my example I argued for those just getting into the business who would benefit from used software) so that others such as Michael's self-example.. can benefit from.

NOTHING in the business world is free.  Adobe didn't wake up yesterday and say "let's make LESS money, so let's go to a subscription model."  Anyone believe different?   No, they woke up and said "we can make MORE money by using a subscription model" and I'm sure they argued most aspects of who would benefit and who would get hurt as they developed their subscription model.

The bottom line is some will get hurt and it's always the guys who are at the bottom struggling to get started.  Michael states that "$30 or even $50 per month is a minor cost of doing business for anyone in image processing professionally,"  and I'd agree it is.  But for those starting out and those still struggling how do we get by and continue on?  Yep, we cut costs.  Even minor costs.  Is ANYONE here going to tell me they didn't decide to not take advantage of an Adobe update because they they could use the money better elsewhere?  That was a choice we used to have.  It has been taken away.  And it won't be the guys who think $30 - $50 is a minor cost either..
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2013, 05:14:35 PM »
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Why can't we just accept that different people have differing needs, wants and abilities.

I think most of us do.  But forums such as these are both educational and a way to hear different views.  I thank you for providing the opportunity.

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As I noted in my recent essay Won Over the The Cloudy Side, I bought the $29.95 bundle because I decided to switch from Final Cut X to Premiere Pro 6 for my video editing. This means I got Premiere for just $20 more than the "photographers" bundle, which gave me Photoshop and Lightroom.

So you based your decision for the cloud, at least in a large part, by choosing Premiere?  Sounds like a good deal.  For now.  What happens when/if.. say Adobe falls back on it's video development a bit, after all now that they're in the subscription model one could argue they're better positioned to do so.. and Final Cut XX comes out and is significantly better than Premiere?  Buyers remorse?  And how easy will it be overall cost wise to rectify your position?

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I have many subscriptions that cost far more than Adobe CC. My cell phone bill, regularly in the hundreds. My cable bill, regularly in the hundreds, my car insurance...don't ask. My home insurance, XM Satellite in the car, and so on and so on. (The only bargain subscription in my life at the moment seems to be Netflix. The deal of the century.)

This doesn't scare you?  My position as a consumer is it should.  Greatly. 

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For the amateur on a budget and with limited needs, it's likely not a good idea. So don't do it!!! Find inexpensive software tools that you like and can use.

I think this attitude is felt loud and clear.  And for those, even the small time guys getting by on used software or not upgrading every new version.. but who has invested their greatest asset (time) in the learning curve.. this doesn't go over well and is the source of most of our discussions.

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« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2013, 05:32:06 PM »
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1.  See my response to Jeff.

I did.  Your anti-Adobe stance is so skewed that your commentary really can't be taken seriously.

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2.   Yes, answering a question with another questions is a great example of obfuscation.  Thank you.

Indeed.  You have yet to answer the original question I posed.

As I said previously, I'm not a fan of the subscription model but I bit the bullet.  My rationale is similar to Michael's.  I substituted PPro/AE/Speedgrade for Sony Vegas.  Having needed InDesign for my first book and now working on a second, it makes sense from that standpoint as well.  When I went to the Adobe Canada site the $19.99 offer for the first year of the entire CC suite wasn't available, so I went back to the U.S site, upgraded through there and got the deal.  At $240 for the first year I'm already well ahead taking into account what the upgrade costs would have been for PS, LR and Sony Vegas.  If Adobe cranks up the price after the first year, I have options.  I can amortise the first year savings over future years, I can revert back to Vegas for video editing, I can revert to PS CS6 if I want.  Yes I'd lose the benefit of any new PS feature, but I don't anticipate being a heavy user of many of the new features Adobe has introduced, so likely little loss.  Adobe has indicated that Lightroom will remain a license-based package, so I can revert to that and have the functionality for any new RAW formats that may be required.

So there are options and the 'chicken little' approach is little more than fear-mongering.
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« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2013, 06:26:49 PM »
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And, yes, that will be irrevocably changed with Adobe selling subscriptions...personally, I have no problem with bogus and pirated software getting screwed by the subscription model.
I just did a search and apparently CC was cracked almost as soon as it was launched [I didn't realise The Pirate Bay  was still going after the law suits a while back]. I didn't think subscription would have any effect on piracy as how you pay won't be relevant to those cracking software. Really useful services you get via the Cloud will be more of an incentive to buy than use a dodgy copy, that is if you are daft enough to risk malware on your system in first place.
I also seem to recall when Adobe first introduced product activation to prevent piracy, some people bought legit software and then used a crack rather than go through the pain of activation and the issues when activation went squiffy.

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« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2013, 12:55:48 AM »
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I did.  Your anti-Adobe stance is so skewed that your commentary really can't be taken seriously.

Again, you make a statement and fail to support it.  Think about why this pleases me.


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As I said previously, I'm not a fan of the subscription model but I bit the bullet.  My rationale is similar to Michael's.  I substituted PPro/AE/Speedgrade for Sony Vegas.  Having needed InDesign for my first book and now working on a second, it makes sense from that standpoint as well.  When I went to the Adobe Canada site the $19.99 offer for the first year of the entire CC suite wasn't available, so I went back to the U.S site, upgraded through there and got the deal.  At $240 for the first year I'm already well ahead taking into account what the upgrade costs would have been for PS, LR and Sony Vegas.  If Adobe cranks up the price after the first year, I have options.  I can amortise the first year savings over future years, I can revert back to Vegas for video editing, I can revert to PS CS6 if I want.  Yes I'd lose the benefit of any new PS feature, but I don't anticipate being a heavy user of many of the new features Adobe has introduced, so likely little loss.  Adobe has indicated that Lightroom will remain a license-based package, so I can revert to that and have the functionality for any new RAW formats that may be required.

So there are options and the 'chicken little' approach is little more than fear-mongering.

1.  Or one could say you "bent over."  Either phrase shows you didn't go into this with even a small degree of enthusiasm, but rather regret.  Different from Michael in that he saw a clear price advantage and was happy to take advantage of it.  You comment "bit the bullet" suggests you were in fact bitter about your choices.  I can relate.

2.   So you are a dual  UK/US resident paying taxes in both countries?  If not, and I'm not saying this for anything other than another interesting point to discuss and because as an long term expat I'm often faced with the same choices, isn't this another form of piracy?    Adobe lists a price for your location, and if you travel outside of this location/price to obtain a less expensive, it seems like a form of piracy.

I've asked Adobe about this several times and as you'd expect the different representatives gave different responses.  I finally figured if I'm living,working and paying taxes in both countries I should be okay.  But should I then look at how many months of each  year, etc..  It's a bit of a sticky wicket no?

3.  As I said above, I'm not entirely comfortable with the "option" you chose.. it feels a bit  slimy.  Maybe like sneaking drinks and candy into a movie theatre.   

4.  You don't appear to have a sound understanding of the chicken little theory, or fear mongering.  But it does seem to be a popular term slung about when the other side has nothing to go on or lacks the ability to articulate that which they do.

It's been fun.  Thank you.
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« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2013, 01:08:57 AM »
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I just did a search and apparently CC was cracked almost as soon as it was launched [I didn't realise The Pirate Bay  was still going after the law suits a while back]. I didn't think subscription would have any effect on piracy as how you pay won't be relevant to those cracking software. Really useful services you get via the Cloud will be more of an incentive to buy than use a dodgy copy, that is if you are daft enough to risk malware on your system in first place.
I also seem to recall when Adobe first introduced product activation to prevent piracy, some people bought legit software and then used a crack rather than go through the pain of activation and the issues when activation went squiffy.



Adobe imo has a long history of questionable practices on this subject.  I think their new model will result in record setting piracy, not reduce it.

I've been busy the last few days building some custom systems and bought a lot of software for each as requested by my clients.  Nothing but negative comments towards Adobe from both clients with one I think trying to hint around at me installing a pirated copy for him.  That will never happen. Both made mention how easy the pirated versions were to find.  I checked, they are.

But the really interesting part was buying software from the Mcrosoft site.  They also have a new subscription model they're pushing and like Adobe they're the market leader in their field with great software.  The difference is Microsoft offers a series of perpetual licence packages.  No one was complaining or feeling negative.  They had choices.  Well thought out choices IMO. 
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« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2013, 08:59:38 AM »
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End of story, at least to my limited imagination.

A photographer stuck with a limited imagination is not a good thing.

There's time to plan, if one finds oneself in the position that $30 is beyond one's means it likely isn't going to happen overnight.

Tell that to all those NYC photographers who are officially dropped from their Healthy NY insurance and now have to wonder what the "exchanges" hold for their future.

$30 or even $50 per month is a minor cost of doing business for anyone in image processing professionally

This justification, or sales pitch, reminds me of what every photographer receives while shopping for a needed tool of the trade. "You'll pay for this item with just three shoots!" Or that ubiquitous HSN/QVC seduction: "Just 12 easy payments of $50 (for the rest of your life), and this great deal can be yours."

In my world, everything depends on everything else, and every expense always seems to depend on how much income your business brings in.

I ran into a talented old friend at Fashion Week recently. He said his photography business grossed $175,000 last year, but he's two months late on his studio rent, and he owes his rental house $20,000. They just notified him, no more rentals until a $5,000 payment is made. On paper, he barely netted $30,000, and his longtime girlfriend is pregnant. And yes, he loses his health care Dec 31 and must face the uncertainty of the "exchange." For those who don't know what it takes to survive in NYC, $30,000 barely pays for food and a roof over your head.

I realize he's one photographer out of many, but in this economy, I'm finding almost every self-employed photographer has a story.

Michael, I'm glad you found happiness, but I think I liked you more when you didn't take a stand. In my imagination, you had more compassion.
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« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2013, 11:03:59 AM »
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"More than 200,000 small businesses closed between 2008 and 2010, and 3 million jobs disappeared, according to U.S. Census figures."
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« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2013, 10:59:43 PM »
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Michael, I'm glad you found happiness, but I think I liked you more when you didn't take a stand. In my imagination, you had more compassion.
There's another aspect to consider.  Many of the longer time photographers have been hit, some hard, by the new guys who slash prices and make it difficult to earn a decent living.  Most of this type have other jobs and  photography is part time so they can afford to offer $500 weddings or $50 portraits.. but it really sucks for the established full time pro.  So when a significant policy comes along that tips the tables in their favour a bit I'm not surprised they'd support it.  Even at the cost of the long term health of the profession overall.

Everyone has their own interests and take on this and I'm no different.  But I do to maintain a sense of fairness, even when it hurts me. 
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« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2013, 11:04:53 PM »
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"More than 200,000 small businesses closed between 2008 and 2010, and 3 million jobs disappeared, according to U.S. Census figures."


Ouch.. I don't think many really understand how this bodes for our country.   But to put it simply it's not good at all.  There are tens of thousands of reasons or more responsible for this trend.  When we have a chance to support small business (like hiring me for instance.. ;o)) we should.
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« Reply #37 on: November 22, 2013, 06:37:06 AM »
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I am eligible. Many are. Because we own PS CS3 or beyond.

Many are not, and many more will not be. Think of new photogaphers graduating this year, new retirees jumping into commercial portrait photography, egineers tired of writing code in cubicles jumping into a photography business.

If Adobe is truly honest to their word, they should not price this as an "upgrade" , but rather as a photographer price to a limited set of tools (PS + LR). Kind of a-la carte pricing, if you will. Ad why this limit of having to start by december? What if a student is graduating in June next year?

My interpretation: Adobe is not yet coming clean with this. It is a stopgap to limit the uproar, but not a solution that is sustainable for fellow photographers.

Nadim

Ok, so it took Adobe a while to admit the inconsistency between their previous offer, and their language (offer to photographers). Today's news is about a limited offer for photographers not owning CS3 or above.

Good. A bit late maybe? Sign of despair? Thanksgiving sales? I am still not jumping in. I am All for choices, give us back the option to purchase perpetual access to the software (like before). How complicated is that decision? Call it "perpetual subscription with upfront payment", to save face with Wall Street... Or whatever...


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