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Author Topic: I'm seriously confused !!  (Read 3736 times)
Paul Ozzello
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« on: September 26, 2013, 11:57:35 AM »
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I'm trying to understand all the different parameters that effect print quality and the best way to softproof my prints. I have a colormunki photo and have properly calibrated my monitor and I'm currently using a Canon Pro 9000 (first version - NOT mark II)


- I'm printing drum-scanned black and white negatives that are in Grayscale mode, what "Working Profile" should I be using in Photoshop ? sGray, DotGain 15%, Dot Gain 30% etc.
- I'm printing on Hahnemuhle Albrecht Durer, I downloaded the icc profile from the hahnemule website, what is this profile for, softproofing only ?
- On the Photoshop Print screen, I choose "let Photoshop manage colors". I can also choose a printer profile but the hahnemule one is not there. Which one should I choose ? I can also choose Print Setting which opens up the Canon setup screen, and I need to specify a Media Type. What is the difference between the Media Type on the canon screen and the printer driver used by photoshop ? Which one do I choose ?
- Should I base my print rendering intent on the rendering intent I selected on the proof screen in photoshop ?
- If I profile my own paper, will I be making a print driver profile and a soft proof profile ?
- I understand that Media Type determines how much ink to apply based on how much a paper type absorbs inks, but how does it relate to the print driver profile ?

I hope someone can clear this up for me, it's really confusing !!!


Paul

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NikoJorj
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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2013, 03:22:21 AM »
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You may, at best, begin with the beginning...

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/the_digital_print.shtml (edit : I see on the dedicated thread that you didin't wait for this recommandation! Wink All the answers you need should be in there I think)
or if you prefer videos
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/videos/tutorials/guide_to_colour_management.shtml which is part of http://www.luminous-landscape.com/videos/tutorials/camera_to_print_and_screen.shtml

For a more in-depth exploration of the subject try http://colorremedies.com/realworldcolor/ eg (older, but complete and yet very well explained).

Hope this helps. Wink
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 03:26:25 AM by NikoJorj » Logged

Nicolas from Grenoble
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Simon J.A. Simpson
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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2013, 12:00:43 PM »
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I have a ColorMunki and a Pro9000 so may be able to help.  But read the stuff on the links first.

Quote
I'm printing drum-scanned black and white negatives that are in Grayscale mode, what "Working Profile" should I be using in Photoshop ? sGray, DotGain 15%, Dot Gain 30% etc.
Adobe RGB is fine.  You can use a grayscale working space but this may confuse things later.  Don't use any of the "DotGain" profiles or working spaces as these are intended for commercial printing presses.


Quote
I'm printing on Hahnemuhle Albrecht Durer, I downloaded the icc profile from the hahnemule website, what is this profile for, softproofing only ?
This profile is for printing also.

Quote
On the Photoshop Print screen, I choose "let Photoshop manage colors". I can also choose a printer profile but the hahnemule one is not there. Which one should I choose ? I can also choose Print Setting which opens up the Canon setup screen, and I need to specify a Media Type. What is the difference between the Media Type on the canon screen and the printer driver used by photoshop ? Which one do I choose ?
Best read the links.  If you choose to ‘Let Photoshop Manage Colours’ the key here is to ensure that the media type selected in the Canon dialogue is the same as that used by
Hahnemüehle when they made the profile.  Check the Hahnemüehle website to ensure you are using the same settings as they did.

Quote
Should I base my print rendering intent on the rendering intent I selected on the proof screen in photoshop ?
Not necessarily.  Soft proof allows you to view the potential results – it does not effect the final print.

Quote
If I profile my own paper, will I be making a print driver profile and a soft proof profile ?
Yes.  They kind of co-exist in the same ‘profile’ file.

Quote
I understand that Media Type determines how much ink to apply based on how much a paper type absorbs inks, but how does it relate to the print driver profile ?
It doesn't relate directly to the profile but you have to make sure the print driver settings are identical to those used to produce the profile.

Yes, it seems very confusing at the start, and not all you read (especially on the internet) is that clear.  The video tutorial on this website may be a good investment – I've read very good things about it but not seen it myself <http://www.luminous-landscape.com/videos/tutorials/guide_to_colour_management.shtml> .  BUT, it all gets easier as you go along – reading and experimenting and trying things out – and then one day you finally get the principles of the thing !  Then of course things get esoteric – but best not go there for now !

Hope this helps.

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digitaldog
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2013, 12:17:56 PM »
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- I'm printing drum-scanned black and white negatives that are in Grayscale mode, what "Working Profile" should I be using in Photoshop ? sGray, DotGain 15%, Dot Gain 30% etc.
Who's making the scans? You should be using the embedded profile from the scanner (the profile that defines those RGB values). I doubt you're getting a native grayscale scan from such a unit. Is someone converting from the native scanner profile to grayscale?
Quote
- If I profile my own paper, will I be making a print driver profile and a soft proof profile ?
You will be making a printer profile for both uses. The profile shows a simulation on-screen of the output and when you are ready, converts the data to that output color space.
Quote
I understand that Media Type determines how much ink to apply based on how much a paper type absorbs inks, but how does it relate to the print driver profile?
The profile reflects all the settings and behavior of the entire print path. So you want to select the 'best' media type behavior, then profile that behavior along with all the other settings in the print driver. A profile does just what the name says: it profiles, fingerprints the entire process.
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Andrew Rodney
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Paul Ozzello
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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2013, 03:47:22 PM »
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You may, at best, begin with the beginning...

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/the_digital_print.shtml (edit : I see on the dedicated thread that you didin't wait for this recommandation! Wink All the answers you need should be in there I think)
or if you prefer videos
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/videos/tutorials/guide_to_colour_management.shtml which is part of http://www.luminous-landscape.com/videos/tutorials/camera_to_print_and_screen.shtml

For a more in-depth exploration of the subject try http://colorremedies.com/realworldcolor/ eg (older, but complete and yet very well explained).

Hope this helps. Wink

Merci Niko, I downloaded Jeff's book and it looks like it covers many of my questions. Do the Lula videos add anything to the book ?

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Paul Ozzello
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« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2013, 03:54:20 PM »
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I have a ColorMunki and a Pro9000 so may be able to help.  But read the stuff on the links first.
Adobe RGB is fine.  You can use a grayscale working space but this may confuse things later.  Don't use any of the "DotGain" profiles or working spaces as these are intended for commercial printing presses.

This profile is for printing also.
Best read the links.  If you choose to ‘Let Photoshop Manage Colours’ the key here is to ensure that the media type selected in the Canon dialogue is the same as that used by
Hahnemüehle when they made the profile.  Check the Hahnemüehle website to ensure you are using the same settings as they did.
Not necessarily.  Soft proof allows you to view the potential results – it does not effect the final print.
Yes.  They kind of co-exist in the same ‘profile’ file.
It doesn't relate directly to the profile but you have to make sure the print driver settings are identical to those used to produce the profile.

Yes, it seems very confusing at the start, and not all you read (especially on the internet) is that clear.  The video tutorial on this website may be a good investment – I've read very good things about it but not seen it myself <http://www.luminous-landscape.com/videos/tutorials/guide_to_colour_management.shtml> .  BUT, it all gets easier as you go along – reading and experimenting and trying things out – and then one day you finally get the principles of the thing !  Then of course things get esoteric – but best not go there for now !

Hope this helps.



Thanks for the tips ! I was under the impression I couldn't select the Hahnemule profile in the printer profile screen, I'll check again tonight. Can I use RGB working space since in grayscale mode ?
« Last Edit: September 27, 2013, 04:27:47 PM by Paul Ozzello » Logged

Paul Ozzello
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« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2013, 04:34:10 PM »
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Who's making the scans? You should be using the embedded profile from the scanner (the profile that defines those RGB values). I doubt you're getting a native grayscale scan from such a unit. Is someone converting from the native scanner profile to grayscale? You will be making a printer profile for both uses. The profile shows a simulation on-screen of the output and when you are ready, converts the data to that output color space. The profile reflects all the settings and behavior of the entire print path. So you want to select the 'best' media type behavior, then profile that behavior along with all the other settings in the print driver. A profile does just what the name says: it profiles, fingerprints the entire process.
Do you mean I should be using the embedded scanner profile as my working space ? The black and white scans were scanned in color, I used the channel mixer to remove the noiser red channel then converted to grayscale in photoshop. Which brings up the question, with a black and white original should I stick to RGB or grayscale ? My files are several gigabytes in size (18000 x 18000 pixels - will be making 40" prints) so filesize is also a consideration.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2013, 06:04:01 PM »
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Do you mean I should be using the embedded scanner profile as my working space ?
If possible yes. At least you'd want the data presented that way because that color space and profile define what the scanner actually produced. You can't get to an RGB working space before that step. The main benefit of a synthetic RGB working space like ProPhoto RGB, Adobe RGB etc, is that when all three color numbers are the same (87/87/87), that's neutral. This isn't necessarily the case with the scan in a RGB scanner space. But to end up in such a space, someone, somewhere has to make another color space conversion (Scanner RGB to Adobe RGB (1998)).
Quote
The black and white scans were scanned in color, I used the channel mixer to remove the noiser red channel then converted to grayscale in photoshop. Which brings up the question, with a black and white original should I stick to RGB or grayscale ?
I figured they were scanned in color, the question is, what's the scanner RGB space and why isn't that the embedded profile? As to sticking with RGB or grayscale, the advantage of the later is a smaller file due to 2 less channels. But what will the end results be from the data? IF the scanner is providing some RGB color space and the tagged profile that defines it, unless the file size is causing issues, I'd just keep it in that color space.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2013, 09:33:07 AM »
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Something Important In Relation To The Pro9000

I have found that trying to print greyscale images on the Pro9000 to be problematic if you use any kind of colour management (and, believe me, I've tried !).

Because of the inks, and the algorithm used, you tend to get some greenish dark tones and magenta in some light tones.

The best results I obtained were from using Canon's ‘Easy-PhotoPrint Pro’ (a plug-in for Photoshop) and then selecting the Grayscale Photo option.  Using the ‘Color Adjustment…’ button gives some control over the warmth of the image.  This uses a special greyscale algorithm, which takes a lot longer to print but produces a much more neutral and pleasing image.
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Paul Ozzello
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2013, 07:53:58 PM »
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If possible yes. At least you'd want the data presented that way because that color space and profile define what the scanner actually produced. You can't get to an RGB working space before that step. The main benefit of a synthetic RGB working space like ProPhoto RGB, Adobe RGB etc, is that when all three color numbers are the same (87/87/87), that's neutral. This isn't necessarily the case with the scan in a RGB scanner space. But to end up in such a space, someone, somewhere has to make another color space conversion (Scanner RGB to Adobe RGB (1998)). I figured they were scanned in color, the question is, what's the scanner RGB space and why isn't that the embedded profile? As to sticking with RGB or grayscale, the advantage of the later is a smaller file due to 2 less channels. But what will the end results be from the data? IF the scanner is providing some RGB color space and the tagged profile that defines it, unless the file size is causing issues, I'd just keep it in that color space.

I went back and looked at the original scans and the embedded profile is Adobe RGB. You raise an interesting question about the end results... I don't know. I was originally planning on having them printed with a converted Epson and Piezography inks but in the meantime i ended up ordering a 9890 and was going to try the default inks first... What do I lose by tossing out the two channels ? On screen at 100%, there is no visible loss of quality and the image has less noise with the red channel removed. Is there a better conversion alternative ?
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Paul Ozzello
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2013, 08:03:30 PM »
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Something Important In Relation To The Pro9000

I have found that trying to print greyscale images on the Pro9000 to be problematic if you use any kind of colour management (and, believe me, I've tried !).

Because of the inks, and the algorithm used, you tend to get some greenish dark tones and magenta in some light tones.

The best results I obtained were from using Canon's ‘Easy-PhotoPrint Pro’ (a plug-in for Photoshop) and then selecting the Grayscale Photo option.  Using the ‘Color Adjustment…’ button gives some control over the warmth of the image.  This uses a special greyscale algorithm, which takes a lot longer to print but produces a much more neutral and pleasing image.

I'm a little less confused Wink I couldn't figure out why I couldn't see the Hahnemuhle profiles from the PS print screen when they I could use them to softproof... I unchecked 'Grayscale printing' from the canon menu and the profiles became available...

The B&W prints coming out of the canon are definately not neutral and seem to suffer from a bit from metamerism (or according to Jeff Schew - gray balance failure Wink ). The tonality just doesn't compare - it's far superior in color mode. Is that plugin essentially doing the same thing as "grayscale printing" mode ?

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« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2013, 08:09:16 PM »
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What do I lose by tossing out the two channels ?
Well if you do output to an Epson, you'll be sending it RGB data, so you'll end up rebuilding them back in anyway.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2013, 11:09:41 PM »
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Well if you do output to an Epson, you'll be sending it RGB data, so you'll end up rebuilding them back in anyway.

Is that also true if I use QuadTone RIP ?
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« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2013, 08:47:03 AM »
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Is that also true if I use QuadTone RIP ?
Don't know, I don't use it. For the Epson driver, yes.
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Andrew Rodney
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« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2013, 10:03:08 AM »
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The B&W prints coming out of the canon are definately not neutral and seem to suffer from a bit from metamerism (or according to Jeff Schew - gray balance failure Wink ). The tonality just doesn't compare - it's far superior in color mode. Is that plugin essentially doing the same thing as "grayscale printing" mode ?

As I recollect from my experiments the "grayscale printing" mode accessed through the printer driver didn't work very well and exhibited the problems you describe.  Canon's ‘Easy-PhotoPrint Pro’  can be downloaded free from their website and, once installed, can be accessed from “Automate” menu (under ‘File’).  It's certainly worth a try.
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Paul Ozzello
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« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2013, 09:33:02 PM »
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As I recollect from my experiments the "grayscale printing" mode accessed through the printer driver didn't work very well and exhibited the problems you describe.  Canon's ‘Easy-PhotoPrint Pro’  can be downloaded free from their website and, once installed, can be accessed from “Automate” menu (under ‘File’).  It's certainly worth a try.

Another option is JUST what I needed... Wink
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Simon J.A. Simpson
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« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2013, 01:42:23 PM »
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Another option is JUST what I needed... Wink

Sorry … just trying to help !  Undecided
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