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Author Topic: Monitor profiling services?  (Read 4854 times)
gwhitf
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« on: September 26, 2013, 10:36:38 PM »
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Does anyone in the US provide this service? I fedex my MacBook Pro (Mountain Lion) to someone, and they simply profile/calibrate the monitor and send it back to me?

If no one rents monitor profiling gear, could it work in reverse?

Thanks.
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2013, 12:01:33 AM »
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Does anyone in the US provide this service?
ColorMunki Display colorimeter price is <= $170.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2013, 08:29:33 AM »
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I'm certain some provide this service but as far as I know, most if not all off the shelf products have a EULA that forbids this. Next, you have to conduct this process on a regular basis, say once a month. So it's kind of silly not to just purchase a product and do it yourself.
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Andrew Rodney
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2013, 08:31:00 AM »
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As someone who has offered this service since 1994, I think it's important to do it yourself and match paper white under the lighting conditions that you work in. Improving the lighting that you view prints with is an often overlooked and needed component to a smart workflow. All of these things and more need to come together for a well balanced workflow, so I can't recommend sending it off or taking it out of your environment for calibration. Spend the cash, do it right, and consider how all the pieces fit together.
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MiSwan
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« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2013, 03:46:58 PM »
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As for EULA issues…..a Disc+ BasiC+ dongle sitelicens allow you to do whatever you want, wherever you want. Get payed or give away.100% freedom in this matter. Pretty generous and a good reason to go with that artillery. I was surprised and very happy to hear this about the tools. It comes directly from the source (K.K).

Since it's a laptop - and the internal screen - it will probably be used on location/fieldwork…… so I guess he/she will have the ambient allover the place, so to speak. If not dragging a lightbox with him. Ok, Solux then. Portable light, pocket sized Wink A simple choice on the D-scale would do in such case. Still, after all it's a laptopscreen…..

Must be a good reason for letting someone else do it. Wouldn't surprise me if it's a Retina with the typical red tint that has to be edited away manually. That extra process in itself will keep one from doing to often anyway. It's not that fun. You can't measure it away, you know….. Letting someone else do it would be ok if having the service next door or in the same city. Sending it away is probably a bit over the top. On the other hand we're sending other digital stuff for service all the time so why not. A shitty sensor for example, despite the fact that there are so many do it yourself-kits out there for cleaning. You don't want to mess with it and you don't have the time to spend on it to get it right. You rather pay and get it done well (hopefully).

Bump it over to europe here and I'll fix it. Or if you pay for my ticket, time and hotel, I'll take the next flight. I've done it since 1998 Wink I don't know how many probes you could by for that cost, but I'll pack my bag if you insist on it. Martin has 4 years more in the game (eyeballing at that time, right? Could come as a gift for the Retina), so he would probably be a better choice in the US. Oh, and that other old good fellow there, Andrew, how long has he been going on actually? Wink


Ok, back to the beer now. Have a nice evening you too.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2013, 04:43:49 PM »
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As for EULA issues…..a Disc+ BasiC+ dongle sitelicens allow you to do whatever you want, wherever you want. DISCUS
It's called a DISCUS, it is 990 Euro or over $1000 US so at that price point, I'd hope you would have a more generous EULA. The package does not include a basICColor display license!
Even if you can come in and calibrate the OP's device without breaking a EULA, he's going to have to (want to) pay you to do this on a regular basis, displays are unstable devices. Or he could just buy his own instrument at a far lower cost and do the work himself.
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Andrew Rodney
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smilem
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« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2013, 11:09:25 AM »
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Regarding EULA, it's good that I'm not in US.
Regarding buying the equipment, I agree it's better to buy it if you are serious about color consistency. But given the fact that most calibrate 4 times a year or less. And that is cheaper than buying the equipment (X-Rite i1 Display Pro 249$ / 238Eur). That's why such services exist in the first place.

Quality is entirely different subject. Most service providers never bother to certify their Job so that means a calibrated monitor can be very very bad. But the user will not know this.

It all depends where you are located and the local currency exchange rate compared to $ or Euro.
Did you notice that the price is not based on currency exchange between $ and Euro but nearly the same. That's what I hate about X-rite and their company price policy. Europeans are forced to buy from US pay original price in $ + VAT and that's 1/3rd cheaper than buying from EU.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2013, 11:19:01 AM by smilem » Logged
Czornyj
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« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2013, 12:04:09 PM »
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Quality is entirely different subject. Most service providers never bother to certify their Job so that means a calibrated monitor can be very very bad. But the user will not know this.

Certificates like UDACT are meaningless IMO. The calibrated monitor can pass UDACT and such in flying colors, and still have nothing to do with a in a given viewing conditions print. The calibration sensor can be not precise, the viewing conditions can be wrong.
And - last but not least - the sad true is that even if you have the best monitor in the world and a lab grade spectroradiometer, set up everything in a perfect way, there's still no perfect match between the monitor and the print, because the CIE XYZ colorimetry is not perfect, so in the end you must often make final tweaks using visual evaluation.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2013, 12:14:59 PM »
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Certificates like UDACT are meaningless IMO. The calibrated monitor can pass UDACT and such in flying colors, and still have nothing to do with a in a given viewing conditions print. The calibration sensor can be not precise, the viewing conditions can be wrong.
And - last but not least - the sad true is that even if you have the best monitor in the world and a lab grade spectroradiometer, set up everything in a perfect way, there's still no perfect match between the monitor and the print, because the CIE XYZ colorimetry is not perfect, so in the end you must often make final tweaks using visual evaluation.
Absolutely spot on analysis! Well said.
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Andrew Rodney
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MiSwan
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2013, 02:14:33 PM »
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Andrew,

actually, no it's not about the Discus itself.

It's the sitelicens EULA…… a sitelic most often strictly means unlimited seats in one location, one company, as you very well know. You're not locked into this or anything else in this case. That's the point. That's what is generous.

The sitelicens is cut down to allmost half in price if dongle to the Discus itself. But the EULA goes for a separate dongle too. You pay around four-five full seats to get the unlimited sitelic if dongled to the Discus. Double that (approx)for an ordinary separate USB stick dongle. Even that is more than just ok. Not bad at all if doing it professionally, spread out at many locations, if you ask me. I don't think that you could use the free x-rite application in the same way (legally) even if you would pay for it….. so it kind of balancing things up in the end somehow. And…  what is 990 € + sitelic 500€ for an unlimited workingtool, really? It's less than a 80-200/2.8 here or my little Leica M-28 lens (compare nicely to the Discus quality, by the way…). All these are workingtools. LongLifed.

Yes, not even one single seat is included with the Discus as you mentioned, the black version has one, though – and a hardcase but you pay for it since the price is higher. This part is really greedy. No doubt. Both could had been dongled with one free seat at least. The software would then be locked for any other probe. Again, if in need for a sitelic, the nice balance comes in. Regardless of what we think about the rest.

Of course, he/she has to recalibrate. But the question is how often would do so anyway on a laptop. Especially if having to edit a Retina profile to get it clean each time. If not a Retina IPS, the crappy viewangle on the "older" ones will kill the happiness over a calibrated screen anyway. That will be a larger variable for most users than the slow drifting of the backlight on a calibrated/profiled laptop….. Chasing that drift back and forth, day in and day, out is meaningless. Happy to at least be in the ballpark – or in the outer parts of it. In different locations, sportarenas or sitting in the hotelcorridor, one will bump the level up and down untill it feels normal to start editing/browsing. Counting the pushes on the button from max level downwards just to know where we are.

Of course he/she could be better off getting his own little probe and find a way to deal with the laptopscreen, spending all that time to find where he's got the sweetspot. Learn to handle the angle issues…. making some blackpointtargets for visual setting blackpoint by adjusting the angle…… and also deeply memorize differences between that little screen and a large wellcalibrated monitor at home. To be able to compensate in brain when out there in the field. Like it always has been done. It's an art in itself.  Pulling in a laptopscreen well, most often takes *some level of fingertip feeling* and skills from loads of other screens. That goes very much for cal/profiling too. I even redo the Coloredges time after time untill my intuition is satisfied. The basic process is extremely easy to do for most people. But there are, many times, more to it than that……

If someone asks those questions, he's probably more focused on delivery and has less time for learning details. It's not that uncommon. "Just get it fixed for me so that I can browse my cards decently without that blue bottomhalf of the greyramp, that's all I want. I need it fixed yesterday. I don't know a shit about how". I do have a kind of respect for that simple wish too.

Get a probe if not having anyone nearby that can help. But people are having problem despite the easy to follow softare flow and well reviewed x-rites / spyders. How can that be?

This is a good discussion. Beacuse I can really understand why some hard working and stressed out people are asking for this simple service. Silly or not. That was what trigged my reaction to make some really short comments in the first place.

Just my two cents, like you americani use to say Smiley

Time for some wine.

Ciao.
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smilem
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2013, 04:11:13 PM »
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Certificates like UDACT are meaningless IMO. The calibrated monitor can pass UDACT and such in flying colors, and still have nothing to do with a in a given viewing conditions print. The calibration sensor can be not precise, the viewing conditions can be wrong.
And - last but not least - the sad true is that even if you have the best monitor in the world and a lab grade spectroradiometer, set up everything in a perfect way, there's still no perfect match between the monitor and the print, because the CIE XYZ colorimetry is not perfect, so in the end you must often make final tweaks using visual evaluation.

Certificates like UDACT do not evaluate viewing conditions ! There is ISO/ANSI standards how to set that up correctly.
I never said that anyone should use UDACT, or that it's the best certification software there is. But it's funny how some companies make exactly the same as UDACT and charge 2000$ for it. Guess their clients are stupid to use it then.
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gwhitf
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« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2013, 07:03:15 AM »
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You guys feel good about this unit, for modern glossy MacBookPro displays, as well as MacBook Pro Retina displays? And with Mountain Lion?

http://www.amazon.com/X-Rite-CMUNDIS-ColorMunki-Display/dp/B0055MBQOM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1380542468&sr=8-1&keywords=ColorMunki+Display+colorimeter

Thanks.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2013, 08:54:21 AM »
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You guys feel good about this unit, for modern glossy MacBookPro displays, as well as MacBook Pro Retina displays? And with Mountain Lion?

The hardware is excellent. The software, so-so. It is the same hardware as the i1Display-Pro but a different color, runs slower and has far inferior software compared to the Pro. For whatever reason, X-rite cripples the software with the same fine hardware and lowers the price. I think it's silly to do, software is kind of important depending on your goals (usually make a display and print match). Worse, there's no upgrade path from ColorMunki hardware to i1Display-Pro software. If you only concerned with Macbook Pro display used on location, the Munki should be fine. You're not trying to tame a good screen to print match due to screen and the fact it's all over the planet.
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Andrew Rodney
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2013, 02:20:17 PM »
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You guys feel good about this unit, for modern glossy MacBookPro displays, as well as MacBook Pro Retina displays? And with Mountain Lion?

http://www.amazon.com/X-Rite-CMUNDIS-ColorMunki-Display/dp/B0055MBQOM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1380542468&sr=8-1&keywords=ColorMunki+Display+colorimeter

Thanks.

you shall be able to run a free Argyll w/ it, instead of a bundled software.
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MiSwan
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« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2013, 03:28:28 PM »
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And…. there went my little cute flight over the pond right down the toilet. I had it in my hand. It stings.

As for the Munki, why not add what it takes to get the faster Pro instead. Can't be THAT much more.

Anyway, if you get into playmode, try the BasiCColor Display. The free Demo is full working 14 days. I promise -- the demo is full free. That's generous Wink You'll probably nailed that laptop within that timeframe. Both the x-rite probes works with it. But Discus doesn't work with the i1Profiler. Isn't that bloody unfair?! …… ColorNavigator does since a while back. That soothes. But ColorNavigator doesn't ride well with anything else than ColorEdges…… It's a mess……..and x-rite contributes on their side with OEM vs Retail versions of their probes. Thanks. We could need someone who can hack them all (making some universal adjustments about drivers and SDK's) (or crack? No, no…forget that…. I think that's a drug, sorry).

Ok, back to the Vodka.

PS. Munki and Argyll, well it can't get much slower now. But the result can be nice.  Use an extra large number of patches too…..to be sure. And redo at least 10-15 times to get hang of differences between the settings. That's the only way to learn the tools and processes. No shortcuts! Even if it takes 'some' time, a couple of full (24h+24h+24h+24h) weekends perhaps.

Are you really, really sure you don't want me to pop over? Smiley
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Czornyj
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« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2013, 04:48:08 PM »
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Both the x-rite probes works with it
AFAIK ColorMunki Display doesn't work with basICColor display, nor any other profiler (ColorNavigator, SpectraView) that's using X-Rite drivers.

ArgyllCMS is the only exception - but Graeme wrote his own drivers.
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Paul Ozzello
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« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2013, 10:07:00 PM »
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you shall be able to run a free Argyll w/ it, instead of a bundled software.

What's the advantage of using Argyll instead of the bundled ColorMunki photo software ?
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2013, 11:29:35 PM »
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Does anyone in the US provide this service? I fedex my MacBook Pro (Mountain Lion) to someone, and they simply profile/calibrate the monitor and send it back to me?

If no one rents monitor profiling gear, could it work in reverse?

Thanks.
You might want to consider a workshop where the instructor will show you how to do this yourself as part of the workshop.  My workshops, depending on the person, run about 65-70% field work and 30-35% computer work.  I encourage the students to bring their laptops so we can go over any software issues they may be having, perhaps ride their system of malware or settings that slow things down, and then we color profile. 

In my area (Thailand and SEA) working outdoors is brutal and most guys on vacation can hardly wait to get back in the air conditioning because they're not used to it.  So no surprise they really enjoy the computer time. Smiley  The two things they enjoy the most about computer time is getting their computer running with the best possible color, and finally seeing their images come alive when properly exposed and processed.

Workshops, at least on my level are much about value.  Learning to take great images is a given, but helping them with long standing questions about their computer, maybe something they really want to know but have given up (layers is common), and then allowing them to use gear before they buy (lenses, perhaps a pro level body, OEM speedlights vs. Quantum/etc) also adds value.  Of course you can't spend a great amount of time in any of these areas, but I've had many take a 2nd or 3rd individual workshop so they can ask questions the entire time.

So maybe this is an opportunity where you can get more than you asked for..
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MiSwan
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« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2013, 03:10:37 AM »
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Marcin,

sorry, it's the Colormunki SPECTRO that is supported by BasiCColor. Colpa mia! Thanks for the correction. Just another reason to step up a few "bucks" or Euros to get the noncrippled version. We also have the OEM/Retail issue to consider in that one. Even though that might been sorted out in some camps. I dunno. Still, hooking up an OEM on iProfiler will probably be dead end forever.

But who f…. cares, back to the martini Wink

PS. "So maybe this is an opportunity where you can get more than you asked for.."  Are you trying to take my business from me? You evil boy, go away! I was here first Wink Hehe..
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Czornyj
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« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2013, 12:17:26 PM »
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Retina with the typical red tint that has to be edited away manually. That extra process in itself will keep one from doing to often anyway. It's not that fun. You can't measure it away, you know…

BTW yes, you can measure it away - CIE 1964 10° observer
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 12:25:56 PM by Czornyj » Logged

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