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Author Topic: Are we unnecessary?  (Read 12810 times)
Ray
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« Reply #100 on: November 15, 2013, 06:48:30 PM »
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Ray's seems quite perturbed that people do not like Bach. He seems to think we should like Bach or we are missing out. If only we had the right education.
Not sure why he thinks we should like any musician/composer.

And how on Earth am I now quarrelling with myself?  Huh I'm not the one talking about myself in the third person.


Ray is honest enough to admit that he is disappointed that the standard of musical appreciation throughout the population at large is so abysmally low, but Ray also understands why musical education is not a priority within the education system and that the apparent lack of an obvious and practical use for music is partly the cause.

Of far more concern to Ray is the belief system, as expressed by jjj and others, that a taste in music, and the arts in general, is some sort of fixed, inborn quality, and not something which can be acquired through a process of learning and accustomisation.

This view seems to Ray to be not only false, but very pessimistic. People tend not to excel in subjects which they don't like. If one extends the principle, whether or not one likes something is all a matter of taste, to subjects other than music, such as mathematics, then such a view could have negative consequences for the progress of education in general.

"Johnny, you must try to do better in maths. It's very important for your future job prospects." "But mummy, I just don't like maths. I'm never going to like maths because it's all a matter of taste, and I just don't have the taste for maths. Please have a look at the posts from jjj on Luminous-landscape. He knows."  Grin

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2012/jan/23/how-learn-love-maths
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jjj
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« Reply #101 on: November 18, 2013, 08:00:17 AM »
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Ray is honest enough to admit that he is disappointed that the standard of musical appreciation throughout the population at large is so abysmally low,
TRANSLATION - Ray is disappointed that no everyone likes the same 'superior' music as he does.
[Why do people insist on thinking their taste is better than everyone else's? It's just their taste, no more, no less.]

Quote
but Ray also understands why musical education is not a priority within the education system and that the apparent lack of an obvious and practical use for music is partly the cause.
TRANSLATION - Ray thinks he was taught music in a way that has been lost to the younger generations and that's why his taste is better than everyone else.
[Ray also doesn't realise that music is still taught much as he described even in, dum, dum, dum…dum lowly comprehensive schools. Or that music actually still as 'useful' as it ever was.]

Quote
Of far more concern to Ray is the belief system, as expressed by jjj and others, that a taste in music, and the arts in general, is some sort of fixed, inborn quality, and not something which can be acquired through a process of learning and accustomisation.
TRANSLATION - Ray is concerned that other people hold different views to him. Usually based on facts that Ray does not like to acknowledge. Ray is also trying to suggest that other people's views are akin to religious faith, thus of little/no value as it's just a belief.
[Ray appears not to have come across the phrase - 'You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink', despite it being one of the oldest proverbs in English.]


Quote
This view seems to Ray to be not only false, but very pessimistic. People tend not to excel in subjects which they don't like. If one extends the principle, whether or not one likes something is all a matter of taste, to subjects other than music, such as mathematics, then such a view could have negative consequences for the progress of education in general.

"Johnny, you must try to do better in maths. It's very important for your future job prospects." "But mummy, I just don't like maths. I'm never going to like maths because it's all a matter of taste, and I just don't have the taste for maths. Please have a look at the posts from jjj on Luminous-landscape. He knows."  Grin
TRANSLATION - Ray is very, very confused as to what aesthetic taste is and attempts more useless analogies that are once again not analogous. Then Ray claims [incorrectly] that jjj supports these ridiculous ideas.
[Not to mention that liking something has zero to do with the ability to do something. Look at art critics for example, they may like art but are not necessarily up to creating it. And you can be really good at doing something, yet not like it.]

Quote
Entertaining article, but has nothing to do with the argument about aesthetic tastes.


Fundamentally Ray, you seem to be confusing people discovering things that they didn't realise they liked with the 'education' of discovering something being the real reason for liking the new discovery. Bad, bad science.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 08:03:43 AM by jjj » Logged

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Isaac
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« Reply #102 on: November 18, 2013, 11:07:20 AM »
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Ray is ... Ray thinks ... Ray is ... Ray is very, very confused ...

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

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jjj
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« Reply #103 on: November 18, 2013, 11:44:18 AM »
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For someone who likes to think he's good at parsing English, you manage to get things so very wrong a lot of the time Isaac.
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Isaac
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« Reply #104 on: November 18, 2013, 11:54:45 AM »
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https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque
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Christoph C. Feldhaim
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There is no rule! No - wait ...


« Reply #105 on: November 18, 2013, 12:04:31 PM »
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https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/too-many-logical-fallacies-per-minute
Tongue
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jjj
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« Reply #106 on: November 18, 2013, 12:31:11 PM »
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Adding more tedious links will not change the fact, that you misread things Isaac.

People who think they can quote their way out of arguments usually do so because they do not actually have valid actual point of view. Are you trying to make up for Floyd?

And selectively quoting out of context, is a sly and underhand way of changing the meaning of someone's post.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 12:34:16 PM by jjj » Logged

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Isaac
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« Reply #107 on: November 18, 2013, 01:25:42 PM »
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Your comments became a personal attack on Ray.
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Christoph C. Feldhaim
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There is no rule! No - wait ...


« Reply #108 on: November 18, 2013, 04:08:12 PM »
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And who was the one who destroyed MY sandcastle?
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Note to self: I really should stop watching this thread any longer.
Not pointed at anyone personal ...
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 04:09:57 PM by Christoph C. Feldhaim » Logged

jjj
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« Reply #109 on: November 18, 2013, 05:04:06 PM »
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Not sure, but I think Isaac may point out that you didn't wet your sand enough or something similar.

Isaac, in case you hadn't noticed, Ray was talking about himself in the third person. I replied in the same strange manner as a parody of Ray.
Ray has not responded to any dissenting facts or counter arguments to his claims, so taking the mickey out his bizarre posts is a change of tack to see if that works as a communicative method.

You however, are getting as annoying and as pointless as Floyd with your similarly inane comments, accusations of ad-hominen attacks and tedious quotes from other people.
Why don't you partake or add to the actual debate for a change, rather than indulging in irrelevant and inaccurate nitpicking? If not, you can join Floyd in the ignore posts section.
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Isaac
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« Reply #110 on: November 19, 2013, 12:02:34 PM »
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Your latest comments are not "debate" they are personal insults.
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jjj
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« Reply #111 on: November 19, 2013, 12:36:18 PM »
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You are an increasingly annoying forum pest and I'm simply letting you know that.
Unsurprisingly, this is not the first time that has happened to you, so maybe you want to rethink your style of posting.
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #112 on: November 19, 2013, 01:01:36 PM »
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You certainly don't need any education at all to like Bach, and there's plenty of pop music that is quite sophisticated, musically.

People who refer to Bach as someone requiring education to "get" and who simultaneously denigrate pop music are, generally speaking, people who lack the musical education they are extolling the virtues of.

So are you a cultural relativist or the opposite (absolutist?)?

I used to spend a lot of time in high-scool learning the history and technique of (predominantly) dead composers, directors, arrangers, performers, as well as practicing an instrument. My institution actually felt "modern" because we had a significant focus on jazz, while many others were classical-music only. I used to think that music should be distinguished into "high culture" and "low culture" based on how intricate theory was used in forming it, and how hard it was for "regular people" to appreciate it (have you ever heard 12-tone music ala Schoenberg? Zappa is not always easy-listening, either)

I don't think so anymore. I think that the value of music (or any cultural expression) lies in the perception of the listener, some kind of social contract between composer/performer and listener or similar. I do think that our education should make us aware of what lies beyond current popular culture, and that this will make us into "better" people.

Every generation have their heroes and there is little doubt that Elvis, Beach Boys, The Beatles, Metallica, Nirvana etc had importance to "their" generation (and later ones). Why is that any different from some great classical composers writing music on a paid-per-tune basis, scoring women and dying early from syphilis?

Why did I get into this discussion? I am not aiming for great art in photography. I am contempt with "purdy" or "interesting" or "do you remember that, dear?".

-h
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 01:09:07 PM by hjulenissen » Logged
Ray
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« Reply #113 on: November 20, 2013, 01:09:16 AM »
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I don't think so anymore. I think that the value of music (or any cultural expression) lies in the perception of the listener, some kind of social contract between composer/performer and listener or similar. I do think that our education should make us aware of what lies beyond current popular culture, and that this will make us into "better" people.

I would agree that at least part of your above statement is indisputable (within reason and logic). The value of anything, of whatever description, lies in the perception of the recipient. The colour 'green' is not a property of a leaf. It's a property of human perception involving the structure of our brain. The leaf certainly does have specific properties which can be associated with a causal effect in relation to the human sensation of green, but the quality and sensation of greenness exists only in the mind, not in the leaf.

I find the term 'social contract' a bit too vague. My view is that everything a person is, including his/her tastes, intelligence, talents, character, personality and so on, is dependent upon the interaction between a person's genetic make-up and all the experiences, of all descriptions, including education in its broadest sense, that the person has been exposed to, from life in the womb to the present day.

It is well-understood that the earlier experiences in a person's life can have a greater and more long-lasting effect than the later experiences. Sigmund Freud tried to analyse the effects of early, unpleasant experiences that some people had successfully suppressed so that they weren't even aware of having had such experiences, yet such experiences continued to influence their behaviour.

Sometimes, to get one's point across, it helps to create an extreme example, so I'll create a fictitious scenario to explain what I mean. Imagine two adopted children of similar age. One child was adopted because his mother died whilst giving birth. The other child was adopted because he was removed by social workers from a dysfunctional family.
Whilst bringing up these two children, the foster parents noticed some radical differences in musical taste at a very early stage in the children's schooling. One child seemed to instinctively like the music of Bach, whenever it was played, without having had any musical instruction. The other child seemed quite disturbed when such music was played. It wasn't that he was bored or not interested, he was actually very upset.

The foster parents, being very inquisitive sorts of people, like Ray is, did some research into the parents of their adopted children. What they found, from discussions and interviews with people who had known the parents, was that the mother of the child who instinctively liked Bach was a great fan of Bach's music. In fact, the neighbours used to complain that whilst she was pregnant, and living alone, she would play Bach Cantatas and organ music at levels which disturbed the neighbours, who only appreciated pop music.
Clearly, the child who intuitively and instinctively like the music of Bach had an unconscious memory of hearing the music whilst still in the womb.

However, the accounts from the neighbours regarding the dysfunctional family were quite different, except for the music of Bach. The parents were described as continually arguing and shouting, with violence against the wife often occurring, which is why the child was removed by social workers and subsequently adopted.
Revealingly, the neighbours claimed that during such disruptions of shouting and yelling and bashing, they would often hear the music of Bach played loudly. Is it any wonder that that child disliked Bach?

What I'm trying to say here, is that people who claim that one cannot acquire a taste, or that one person's taste is no better than another person's, or that all tastes are equal because they are just tastes with no accounting for, are not digging deep enough.

As I write this, I'm reminded of that first performance of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring in Paris. I had to search the internet to find the exact date, May 29th 1013. That event has always stuck in my mind because I found it very bizarre that differences of opinion on matters of taste could flame into violence in the stalls.

http://www.theverge.com/2013/5/29/4375736/igor-stravinsky-rite-of-spring-100-anniversary-paris-riot
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jjj
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« Reply #114 on: November 20, 2013, 04:37:49 AM »
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Sometimes, to get one's point across, it helps to create an extreme example, so I'll create a fictitious scenario to explain what I mean………...
So whilst some of us like to use facts to put across our way of thinking you make up stories that 'prove' your point.. Way to go Ray, carry on making science up. Besides, did it even occur to you that taste my also be an inheritable trait? Which could also be an explanation for your fairy tale. You seem to have been struggling with causality all the way through this discussion and as usual, you simply ignore points made above that challenge your views.
Also, have you not noticed the potential fatal flaw in your argument re education? You liked Bach after your education, yet I bet a lot of other kids were not so bothered. Now if your hypothesis was actually true then all kids coming out of your school would have been Bach fans. Now my nieces are having/had a similar musical education to you which also includes playing orchestral instruments and they are certainly not fans of classical music.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 04:52:18 AM by jjj » Logged

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jjj
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« Reply #115 on: November 20, 2013, 04:51:29 AM »
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So are you a cultural relativist or the opposite (absolutist?)?

I used to spend a lot of time in high-scool learning the history and technique of (predominantly) dead composers, directors, arrangers, performers, as well as practicing an instrument. My institution actually felt "modern" because we had a significant focus on jazz, while many others were classical-music only. I used to think that music should be distinguished into "high culture" and "low culture" based on how intricate theory was used in forming it, and how hard it was for "regular people" to appreciate it (have you ever heard 12-tone music ala Schoenberg? Zappa is not always easy-listening, either)

I don't think so anymore. I think that the value of music (or any cultural expression) lies in the perception of the listener, some kind of social contract between composer/performer and listener or similar. I do think that our education should make us aware of what lies beyond current popular culture, and that this will make us into "better" people.

Every generation have their heroes and there is little doubt that Elvis, Beach Boys, The Beatles, Metallica, Nirvana etc had importance to "their" generation (and later ones). Why is that any different from some great classical composers writing music on a paid-per-tune basis, scoring women and dying early from syphilis?
It isn't. What some people forget is that the old classics or old masters were the populist works of their time.
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Isaac
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« Reply #116 on: November 20, 2013, 12:18:48 PM »
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What I'm trying to say here, is that people who claim that ... are not digging deep enough.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. We'd need an explanation with supporting evidence, not a fictitious scenario.
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jjj
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« Reply #117 on: November 20, 2013, 12:59:59 PM »
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As I write this, I'm reminded of that first performance of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring in Paris. I had to search the internet to find the exact date, May 29th 1013. That event has always stuck in my mind because I found it very bizarre that differences of opinion on matters of taste could flame into violence in the stalls.
Forgot to address this specific part. But along with what I said above 'what some people forget is that the old classics or old masters were the populist works of their time', a lot of what may be seen as fuddy-duddy/old fashioned art now was shocking in its time. Even chocolate box impressionism was once a radical art form! The Ballet Russe who were involved with 'Le sacre du printemps' were the cutting edge of the Avant Garde and the ballet/theatre were not quite the same as the rarefied genteel places that they are today. No-one would be that surprised at things being hurled at a rock concert which is probably more similar to what was going on then than something playing today at the Royal Opera House. The opprobrium that Dylan or Neil Young received when they changed their style of music are two well known example in the rock genre of music fans getting a bit cross about new ideas.

As it happens, I prefer Stravinsky to Bach.
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