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Author Topic: Are we unnecessary?  (Read 17831 times)
Ray
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« Reply #60 on: November 08, 2013, 05:46:08 PM »
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You guys have way too much time discussing silly things on forums. Go out and shoot some ...

C'mon! Be reasonable. We're mostly amateurs here. Don't you know that the problem for an amateur is that he/she has no reason to take a photograph. I'm sure Rob would agree on that point.  Wink
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mezzoduomo
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« Reply #61 on: November 08, 2013, 05:47:57 PM »
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You guys have way too much time discussing silly things on forums. Go out and shoot some ...

This particular thread features some of the most earnest and arduous mental masturbation to be found anywhere. 
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Isaac
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« Reply #62 on: November 08, 2013, 05:53:05 PM »
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You guys have way too much time discussing silly things on forums. Go out and shoot some ...

I'm processing photos. What's your excuse?
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Christoph C. Feldhaim
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There is no rule! No - wait ...


« Reply #63 on: November 08, 2013, 06:00:21 PM »
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I'm processing photos. What's your excuse?
Scanning ....
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Ray
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« Reply #64 on: November 08, 2013, 06:30:36 PM »
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This particular thread features some of the most earnest and arduous mental masturbation to be found anywhere. 

I see. So you are claiming to be an expert on such matters are you, assessing the qualities of all threads you read in terms of their degree of mental masturbation. I presume this is a pejorative term.

I don't use the term, just as I don't use 'soul'. I tend to think that both terms are used as a last resort to express something one doesn't understand.

You might find the following article illuminating.

http://thoughtcatalog.com/daniel-coffeen/2012/07/three-cheers-for-mental-masturbation/
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mezzoduomo
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« Reply #65 on: November 08, 2013, 06:51:02 PM »
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Illuminating? Not really. I did find it interesting, and my quick take is that the author prizes mental masturbation as he defines it, yet acknowledges that it's a personal pursuit, thus, "But talking about it to others quickly becomes not just strange, annoying, and pedantic. It becomes obscene. Ergo, mental masturbation." But I'm too shallow to really appreciate the ramblings of a guy with a PhD in Rhetoric from UC Berkeley.

And if it makes you happy, I'll edit my original comment to read "This particular thread features some of the most earnest and arduous mental masturbation to be found anywhere I've seen lately."
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Rob C
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« Reply #66 on: November 09, 2013, 03:06:01 AM »
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Do you think aesthetics is science rather than philosophy?


Yes and no: in practical terms, insofar as the awakening to the light of an aesthetic consideration, bringing about its physical manifestation, yes - a science. As to the quality of its reception or rejection, that's a philosophical judgement.

But none of that hides the fact that your statement is a non sequitur disguised as a question.

Rob C
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Rob C
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« Reply #67 on: November 09, 2013, 03:24:59 AM »
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You guys have way too much time discussing silly things on forums. Go out and shoot some ...


Chris, how many Cokes do you want me to drink?

;-)

Rob C

P.S. I jest: it's always the same empty bottle; I never drink the stuff now because it would make me desire its complement. But, it does remind me every time of my initial introduction to the brew, back on Marine Drive in old Bombay. Magical how we conflate drive-ins, American cars, school dances, metallic paint, dirndle skirts, beautiful legs, jive, bright lipstick, jukeboxes, Tin Pan Alley - Fabian, Dion and the Belmonts and Connie Francis into one thing: Coca-Cola. No, forget Fabian: nothing reminds me of him - best forgotten as girlie-fodder. He was better-looking than I, though, even then.

http://youtu.be/j8_oucBYblI

Aaaaah!
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jjj
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« Reply #68 on: November 09, 2013, 04:00:02 PM »
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Really! So you don't think that education has anything to do with appreciation of art or music and that it's all to do with personal taste and the era in which you were born? I find that very odd.
I find you very odd, but there you go.  Tongue
More seriously, why do you think you need to be educated to like something? People hear music, they like it or do not like it. Certainly some pieces of music grow on you after a few listens, but education that is not. Education can definitely give you an appreciation for something in how it was created, the milieu in which surrounded it or the context in which it appears. But thinking that is the reason why you like something like music or art or photography, etc is a bit bonkers in my view.

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It's clear to me that personal taste is certainly a factor, as well as natural talent and intelligence, but is not the whole explanation. If two children are exposed during their upbringing to the same type of classical music and receive the same musical education, it's true that their preferences for certain composers and styles of music might well differ as they mature into adults, as a result of their individual taste. One might prefer Beethoven to Bach, the other Bach to Beethoven, or one might prefer Stravinsky, or even jazz, but I think it's extremely unlikely that one or both of them would end up not liking Bach, unless they had received a very bad and tyrannical education causing them to dislike the subjects being taught.
Really!? You think that someone may only dislike Bach because of some bad education? Did it never occur to you that some people may not like Bach, because he simply does not appeal? Or that they think his music is naff and old fashioned/hate harpsichords and would rather listen to some Drum+Bass or Dubstep?

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I've assumed it's axiomatic that the purpose of education is to foster an appreciation and understanding of the subjects being taught, whether the subjects are mathematics, science, literature, history, foreign languages, music or the visual arts.
A good teacher can certainly foster an appreciation for something that may be otherwise overlooked. Doesn't mean you will definitely like something though.

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If it's the case that a person never received a musical education, or was rarely exposed to serious music at home and never given the opportunity to learn to play a musical instrument, then it's quite possible that such a person would find the music of Bach quite boring, not necessarily because he is tone deaf or has some strange taste that precludes his enjoyment of classical music, but because he's never learned to understand and appreciate the music.
Or maybe Bach is simply not to their taste. You seem to have a particular thing about JSB. Out of curiosity, let's mention some different composers, Philip Glass and Michael Nyman. Do you like their work, which is usually though of as being Minimalist or by those who do not like it, boring?  Boring [and repetitive] when applied as an adjective to music, usually means the person describing it does not like it and fails to understand that the music that they like is usually equally as repetitive.
As for 'or was rarely exposed to serious music at home' dear me, music is music. Some people are a bit up themselves in thinking certain music is superior to other music, which is utter nonsense. Particularly as the venerated music of past times may have been the outrageous pop music of its period. I should point out that I had little to no musical education, had no 'serious' music played at home and no opportunity to play an instrument, yet I quite like Bach - the reason, I like minor chords particularly if combined with a fast rhythm as counterpoint and Bach often ticks those boxes. Just been refreshing myself with old Johann whilst typing and may use 'Concerto for Violin and Oboe BWV 1060 - Allegro' in a dance mix tape.

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A lack of learning, understanding and appreciation is called ignorance.
Apart from the fact at times ignorance can be bliss - which is a whole other discussion, one of the best things about music is that no knowledge whatsoever is required to enjoy it.  Grin
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Ray
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« Reply #69 on: November 10, 2013, 08:29:59 AM »
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More seriously, why do you think you need to be educated to like something? People hear music, they like it or do not like it. Certainly some pieces of music grow on you after a few listens, but education that is not. Education can definitely give you an appreciation for something in how it was created, the milieu in which surrounded it or the context in which it appears. But thinking that is the reason why you like something like music or art or photography, etc is a bit bonkers in my view.

Dear me, you do seem to have a very narrow view of education, jjj.  Wink

Education does not just consist of theoretical lectures on the abstract principles relating to a particular subject, but also consists of continual exposure, in a friendly environment, to the subject being learned.

If a kid at school is having trouble with grammar and spelling, the reason is more likely due to the kid being exposed at home to incorrect spelling and grammar as a result of having semi-illiterate parents who don't speak proper; not simply because the kid lacks talent in this field, or because he has a different 'taste' to other kids who have no problem with grammar.

Likewise, when people have no interest in classical music and are quite unmoved by it, but demonstrate an interest in other forms of music such as pop, jazz, funk, rock, and so-called 'soul' music etc, the reason is quite likely that such people were rarely exposed to classical music during their upbringing.
In fact, their lack of interest might even have been reinforced by prejudicial talk from people like yourself who claim that the music belongs to a different era and has no relevance to modern life.

Fortunately, my time in a Grammar School in the Manchester area of northern England many years ago, included one period per week for musical education, when excerpts of classical music were often played in the classroom and discussion encouraged.

I'll always remember the first school outing to a concert at the Free Trade Hall in Manchester where I experienced for the first time the thrill of a full orchestra playing live in a large auditorium with good acoustics. (The Halle Orchestra conducted by Sir John Barbirolli.)

The richness and texture of the sound was amazing. It was so palpable, thrilling and all-encompassing I would have found it difficult to understand how any youngster could have failed to be moved. In those days concepts of amusia or tone deafness were not so well understood.

However, don't think that because I generally prefer classical music to 'pop' music I therefore cannot enjoy pop music of the various genres. Melody and harmony also exist in pop music. I can enjoy any song that has melody and harmony and is performed well. What I don't appreciate are untrained, amplified voices repetitively screaming incoherent lyrics at ear-damaging sound levels.

The analogy between music and photography has been made before, and I think it's a useful analogy. I'd equate a good classical symphony to a very large and detailed panorama of a city or landscape, or a large and detailed wall mural.

The landscape photo or painting will likely have interrelated compositional elements covering the whole canvas, just as a symphony has interrelated movements and themes.

If the landscape photo has been processed in 16 bit ProPhoto RGB and printed on a modern printer, it should display a lot of subtle tonality and color, just as a symphony does with its many different instruments playing loud and soft, with soaring crescendos one minute gradually turning into soft whispers the next.

If the panoramic photo was taken with a high-res MF camera like the IQ180, or is a stitch from a number of images taken with a D800E, then the texture and detail in the foliage and tree trunks, or in the brickwork of buildings, will be amazing, as is the texture created by the different instruments in an orchestra, some playing the same tune, and some playing different but complementary tunes simultaneously, which create both a harmony and a rich texture.

By contrast, the average pop song would be analogous to a 'selfie' taken with a low-resolution camera phone, or the average snapshot taken with a compact camera.

Of course, all analogies tend to break down if extended too far. A pop song takes more work to produce than a snapshot from a camera, and a complete symphony takes more work to write, rehearse and get played than even a very detailed, stitched panorama printed as big as a wall. The analogy works only if one allows for such inherent differences in the nature of the two forms of art, auditory and visual.

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Rob C
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« Reply #70 on: November 10, 2013, 10:30:42 AM »
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I'll always remember the first school outing to a concert at the Free Trade Hall in Manchester where I experienced for the first time the thrill of a full orchestra playing live in a large auditorium with good acoustics. (The Halle Orchestra conducted by Sir John Barbirolli.)

The richness and texture of the sound was amazing. It was so palpable, thrilling and all-encompassing I would have found it difficult to understand how any youngster could have failed to be moved. In those days concepts of amusia or tone deafness were not so well understood.


For me it was Louis Armstrong's All Stars in the Kelvin Hall in Glasgow and, much later, Chuck Berry in the same city.

Armstrong gave VGVFM where Chuck, bless his soul (dangerous word, there), played the miserable mother at the end, giving not a single encore despite ecstatic applause.

Just shows to go you that you don’t need Route 66 to get yo’ kicks; can get ‘em in Glasgow, too, just as long as you don’t seek them in the ultimate photographic opportunity.

http://www.jazzradio.com/

Give it a whirl; all sorts of cool or hot stuff à la carte...

Rob C








Rob C
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Ray
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« Reply #71 on: November 10, 2013, 10:01:32 PM »
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For me it was Louis Armstrong's All Stars in the Kelvin Hall in Glasgow and, much later, Chuck Berry in the same city.

Armstrong gave VGVFM where Chuck, bless his soul (dangerous word, there), played the miserable mother at the end, giving not a single encore despite ecstatic applause.

Just shows to go you that you don’t need Route 66 to get yo’ kicks; can get ‘em in Glasgow, too, just as long as you don’t seek them in the ultimate photographic opportunity.

http://www.jazzradio.com/

Give it a whirl; all sorts of cool or hot stuff à la carte...

Rob C


That certainly looks like a great source for jazz and related music, Rob. However, there can be a problem with the amount of time one has available to listen to music.

My musical needs are satisfied quite adequately by the government-supported ABC Classic FM service which operates 24 hours a day and is totally free. One can listen live, at any time of the day or night, through one's state-of-the-art hi-fi system and FM Receiver, or at a lower quality through one's laptop, or download and listen to the music later. Whilst the emphasis on program material is very largely classical, or serious music, there is a couple of hours a week devoted to jazz.

However, when it comes to opera I do prefer to get the visual effects in addition to the music, so I usually listen to and watch opera on my large plasma display from a Blu-ray player.

ABC, of course, stands for Australian Broadcasting Corporation, not to be confused with American Broadcasting Company or the Annapurna Base Camp in Nepal.  Wink

http://www.abc.net.au/classic/programs/
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Rob C
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« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2013, 10:00:02 AM »
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That certainly looks like a great source for jazz and related music, Rob. However, there can be a problem with the amount of time one has available to listen to music.

My musical needs are satisfied quite adequately by the government-supported ABC Classic FM service which operates 24 hours a day and is totally free. One can listen live, at any time of the day or night, through one's state-of-the-art hi-fi system and FM Receiver, or at a lower quality through one's laptop, or download and listen to the music later. Whilst the emphasis on program material is very largely classical, or serious music, there is a couple of hours a week devoted to jazz.

However, when it comes to opera I do prefer to get the visual effects in addition to the music, so I usually listen to and watch opera on my large plasma display from a Blu-ray player.

ABC, of course, stands for Australian Broadcasting Corporation, not to be confused with American Broadcasting Company or the Annapurna Base Camp in Nepal.  Wink

http://www.abc.net.au/classic/programs/



Well, if musical education ¡s de rigueur, what better than some Texas-originated material? I promise: neither cowboys nor stetsons.

http://youtu.be/13DgGtDGIpg

Rob C
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jjj
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« Reply #73 on: November 11, 2013, 11:38:22 AM »
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Dear me, you do seem to have a very narrow view of education, jjj.  Wink
Not at all as you seem to be completely missing the point, which is that I don't think education is necessary for liking music.

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If a kid at school is having trouble with grammar and spelling, the reason is more likely due to the kid being exposed at home to incorrect spelling and grammar as a result of having semi-illiterate parents who don't speak proper; not simply because the kid lacks talent in this field, or because he has a different 'taste' to other kids who have no problem with grammar.
Irony overload!! Well that's a fantastic example of a rambling run on sentence. It also has a random semicolon, an unnecessary comma and best of all the phrase - 'parents who don't speak proper'.
Now my sister has trouble with spelling as does my best mate, yet both love reading, are from good homes with highly educated and well spoken parents. My sister is dyslexic and my mate simply has a rubbish memory for spelling and directions. Though he has an extremely good musical memory as it happens, but very little interest in music. Not sure what the cause of your rubbish writing is though.  Tongue
As for the point you are trying to make, it's gibberish or the writing is. Maybe both are, it's hard to tell.

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Likewise, when people have no interest in classical music and are quite unmoved by it, but demonstrate an interest in other forms of music such as pop, jazz, funk, rock, and so-called 'soul' music etc, the reason is quite likely that such people were rarely exposed to classical music during their upbringing.
In fact, their lack of interest might even have been reinforced by prejudicial talk from people like yourself who claim that the music belongs to a different era and has no relevance to modern life.
Did you even bother to read my post. I was certainly not saying anything prejudicial thing with regard to orchestral music and in fact I wrote something the complete opposite of that.

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Fortunately, my time in a Grammar School in the Manchester area of northern England many years ago, included one period per week for musical education, when excerpts of classical music were often played in the classroom and discussion encouraged.
Grammar schools were before my time, but in Junior Comprehensive [ages 11 + 12] we had exactly the same thing and for a double period too I seem to recall. I seem to think that was the norm. But the kids didn't rush out and buy Peer Gynt, they bought pop records of the day. I just asked my eldest niece about music lessons. She does music lessons, just as I did, but hates them even though she's the school swot. She much rather listen to Imagine Dragons than orchestral stuff, despite learning the violin/flute for several years. Did you not get taught the expression, you can take a horse to water at Grammar School then?

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I'll always remember the first school outing to a concert at the Free Trade Hall in Manchester where I experienced for the first time the thrill of a full orchestra playing live in a large auditorium with good acoustics. (The Halle Orchestra conducted by Sir John Barbirolli.)
The richness and texture of the sound was amazing. It was so palpable, thrilling and all-encompassing I would have found it difficult to understand how any youngster could have failed to be moved. In those days concepts of amusia or tone deafness were not so well understood.
I'll always remember my first gig, the band were incredibly good and had a really knack at playing to live audiences. The sound was amazing. It was so palpable, thrilling and all-encompassing I would have found it difficult to understand how anybody could have failed to be moved by such a performance. Unless of course they simply didn't like the band/music/orchestra etc.
I've also seen orchestras and as good as they can be, they simply lack the sheer energy and verve of a truly great gig, getting up to dance isn't usually the done thing. Heck I've heard DJs move the crowd better because watching music, no matter how good is nothing compared to dancing to great music. Dancing takes music to another level way above simply listening to it. I could have gone to see Muse in concert recently, but because their tickets my friend had were seated, I didn't see any point in going. If it had been standing tickets for the event then I would have been far more interested.

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However, don't think that because I generally prefer classical music to 'pop' music I therefore cannot enjoy pop music of the various genres. Melody and harmony also exist in pop music. I can enjoy any song that has melody and harmony and is performed well. What I don't appreciate are untrained, amplified voices repetitively screaming incoherent lyrics at ear-damaging sound levels.
And right on cue, there's the standard old person moan about music made after their time.

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The analogy between music and photography has been made before, and I think it's a useful analogy. I'd equate a good classical symphony to a very large and detailed panorama of a city or landscape, or a large and detailed wall mural.
The landscape photo or painting will likely have interrelated compositional elements covering the whole canvas, just as a symphony has interrelated movements and themes.
If the landscape photo has been processed in 16 bit ProPhoto RGB and printed on a modern printer, it should display a lot of subtle tonality and color, just as a symphony does with its many different instruments playing loud and soft, with soaring crescendos one minute gradually turning into soft whispers the next.
If the panoramic photo was taken with a high-res MF camera like the IQ180, or is a stitch from a number of images taken with a D800E, then the texture and detail in the foliage and tree trunks, or in the brickwork of buildings, will be amazing, as is the texture created by the different instruments in an orchestra, some playing the same tune, and some playing different but complementary tunes simultaneously, which create both a harmony and a rich texture.
And yet many pictures done just the way you describe are simply boring and are dull compared to an Henri Cartier Bresson shot taken on low quality 35mm, which is a much more accurate analogy than an iPhone selfie.
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By contrast, the average pop song would be analogous to a 'selfie' taken with a low-resolution camera phone, or the average snapshot taken with a compact camera.
Utter bollocks. Non-classical musicians can actually be very talented, despite not playing in an orchestra. Comparing pop to an aimless snap on a phone simply shows how little you value non-orchestral music.

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Of course, all analogies tend to break down if extended too far. A pop song takes more work to produce than a snapshot from a camera, and a complete symphony takes more work to write, rehearse and get played than even a very detailed, stitched panorama printed as big as a wall. The analogy works only if one allows for such inherent differences in the nature of the two forms of art, auditory and visual.
The analogy was very ropey to start with and it's not important how much effort was put in or how complex it is, the only thing that counts is the end result. A simple melody played on a single instrument can be better than a whole orchestra playing really complex tune. A friend of mine who is a skilled cabinet maker once commented that making a piece of minimal modern furniture can be much harder than a more old fashioned piece with lots of complex detailing. The reason being is that you have to get the proportions exactly right or it doesn't work, fancy detailing helps take your eye away from poor design, flaws in material or craftsmanship.
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jjj
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« Reply #74 on: November 11, 2013, 11:45:41 AM »
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Well, if musical education ¡s de rigueur, what better than some Texas-originated material? I promise: neither cowboys nor stetsons.

http://youtu.be/13DgGtDGIpg
Not a fan of Boogie Woogie myself, it's too much like the keyboard equivalent of twiddly guitar solos. I prefer swing myself.
Quite an amusing intro on the railway platform though.
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jjj
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« Reply #75 on: November 11, 2013, 12:12:34 PM »
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Entertainingly,  it looks like pop aint noise pollution as it's better at saving the world than classical!
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Ray
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« Reply #76 on: November 11, 2013, 06:12:41 PM »
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Not at all as you seem to be completely missing the point, which is that I don't think education is necessary for liking music.

jjj,
You're obviously tying yourself in knots. At this point I think we should go back to the statement you made in reply #53 which I've done my best to address in subsequent posts. Following is what you wrote. I've emphasised certain words in bold.

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If I do not like, say Bach it has nothing to do with ignorance, it has everything to do with personal taste and very likely what era I was born in.

And this was my response: 
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It's clear to me that personal taste is certainly a factor, as well as natural talent and intelligence, but is not the whole explanation.

Perhaps the problem here is with your understanding of the term 'ignorance'. I'm not using this term in a pejorative sense, but in an objective and factual sense. We are ignorant of all the things that we do not know and understand.

The highly educated person with a PhD in his field of study, or even two, is still ignorant. He is ignorant of everything in other fields which he doesn't know about, and ignorant of everything in his own field which has yet to be discovered.

Another confusion over the definition of key terms used in this discussion, is the term education. By education I'm referring to any process of learning about something, whether or not that learning takes place formally in a school or university, non-formally as in school-sponsored visits to museums or concerts, or completely informally as a child learning to speak during the first few years of life before primary school, or indeed a person learning how to use Photoshop only through a process of trial and error.

Enough said! If you find what I say gibberish, I can only assume you're adopting some face-saving attitude to convince yourself and others that your appreciation of music is not lacking.

What Rumsfeld did not include in his statement about "known knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns", is the concept that there can also be things that we know, but do not know that we know, or to put it another way, things that we really do know but pretend that we don't. This type of ignorance can take the form of denial or suppression of uncomfortable facts.

I hope I have at least succeeded in getting you to admit what you already know.  Wink
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« Reply #77 on: November 12, 2013, 05:40:59 AM »
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jjj,
You're obviously tying yourself in knots. At this point I think we should go back to the statement you made in reply #53 which I've done my best to address in subsequent posts. Following is what you wrote. I've emphasised certain words in bold.

And this was my response: 
Perhaps the problem here is with your understanding of the term 'ignorance'. I'm not using this term in a pejorative sense, but in an objective and factual sense. We are ignorant of all the things that we do not know and understand.

The highly educated person with a PhD in his field of study, or even two, is still ignorant. He is ignorant of everything in other fields which he doesn't know about, and ignorant of everything in his own field which has yet to be discovered.

Another confusion over the definition of key terms used in this discussion, is the term education. By education I'm referring to any process of learning about something, whether or not that learning takes place formally in a school or university, non-formally as in school-sponsored visits to museums or concerts, or completely informally as a child learning to speak during the first few years of life before primary school, or indeed a person learning how to use Photoshop only through a process of trial and error.

Enough said! If you find what I say gibberish, I can only assume you're adopting some face-saving attitude to convince yourself and others that your appreciation of music is not lacking.

What Rumsfeld did not include in his statement about "known knowns, known unknowns, and unknown unknowns", is the concept that there can also be things that we know, but do not know that we know, or to put it another way, things that we really do know but pretend that we don't. This type of ignorance can take the form of denial or suppression of uncomfortable facts.

I hope I have at least succeeded in getting you to admit what you already know.  Wink


So I take time to carefully respond to specific points in your posts and you ignore it all bar one sentence/paragraph once again.
Not only that, a straightforward sentence where I'm am supposedly tying myself in knots, is fully in keeping with everything I have written previously.

Just because I pointed out that your amazing grammar school musical education from ye good old days that led you to classical Nirvana is much the same in Comprehensives today, doesn't mean I think school is the only form of education. Don't be so literal. Though thinking everything you do in life is education is misusing the word. Maybe if you had gone to a better school..... Tongue
The fact that kids today do in fact have a similar experience to you rather undermines your argument, as they mostly prefer contemporary music.

When I said you were talking gibberish, it had nothing to do with face saving. It however had everything to do with the ironic fact that the sentence where you denigrate other's bad grammar, was very poorly written indeed and riddled with errors of English. Plus you thinking I have no appreciation of music because I do not worship Bach and sneer at pop the same way you do, is simply asinine. And a particularly dumb thing to stay as I do actually like Bach and not only have been a collector of music from an extremely wide range of genres, but I DJ too - for quite different dance forms.

All you have succeeded in doing is demonstrating that you have the standard old fogey attitude to music, pretentiously thinking the music you like is somehow superior to the music others may like. Sir, you are an utter snob. Trying to justify it by some ridiculous analogies that are not even analogous, will not change that fact.
Trying to post rationalise one's personal taste is one of the most pointless tasks imaginable. And yet people keep on doing it. Imagine if people did the same ridiculous thing with colour. "Oh you like blue, how unsophisticated. The subtleties of the more complex fuchsia are far superior, I imagine you must have had very plain walls in your home growing up and your ignorant parent wore grey"  Roll Eyes

Your statement regarding Rumsfeld and 'known unknowns' is possibly even more ironic than your sentence of mangled grammar. Which is a remarkable achievement, not one to applaud though.
Oh and Mozart, the classical composer I am probably the least 'ignorant' about, is the one I really cannot stand. Too many notes indeed.

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mezzoduomo
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« Reply #78 on: November 12, 2013, 06:00:32 AM »
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The only thing missing now is Floyd Davidson.
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« Reply #79 on: November 12, 2013, 06:14:03 AM »
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Not lacking pointless, smart arse comments though are we.

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Tradition is the Backbone of the Spineless.   Futt Futt Futt Photography
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