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Author Topic: Are we unnecessary?  (Read 15167 times)
amolitor
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« Reply #80 on: November 12, 2013, 01:35:11 PM »
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You certainly don't need any education at all to like Bach, and there's plenty of pop music that is quite sophisticated, musically.

People who refer to Bach as someone requiring education to "get" and who simultaneously denigrate pop music are, generally speaking, people who lack the musical education they are extolling the virtues of.
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Kirk Gittings
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« Reply #81 on: November 12, 2013, 02:02:31 PM »
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You, sir, are trying to put words in my mouth...I inferred that, perhaps "Art" is unnecessary.

You sir are not looking at the logical consequences of your question. If "art" is unnecessary then "artists" are unnecessary. Art is not auxiliary to me as a person. I make my living completely as an artist (commercial and art photographer for 35 years). My hobby is art (I photograph for fun-I take vacations so I can photograph more). I routinely visit art shows and even fly across country to see them (Monet, AA, Lichenstein, Rivera  etc.). Life and art are inseparable to me.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 02:05:04 PM by Kirk Gittings » Logged

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Ray
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« Reply #82 on: November 12, 2013, 09:34:22 PM »
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You certainly don't need any education at all to like Bach, and there's plenty of pop music that is quite sophisticated, musically.


I find that a very pessimistic statement and it seems quite incorrect to me. You're implying, if one doesn't like Bach, there's nothing one can do about it. Education cannot help. Education has no bearing on the matter. One is stuck with a genetically-wired taste, so to speak, which cannot be modified. Dear me! How awful!

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People who refer to Bach as someone requiring education to "get" and who simultaneously denigrate pop music are, generally speaking, people who lack the musical education they are extolling the virtues of.

For this statement to be meaningful, you need to define what you mean by education. If you mean 'formal' education consisting of lectures on the history and development of music, analyses of the interplay of themes and harmony in specific pieces of classical music, and/or 'hands-on' education consisting of instruction on how to play certain classical pieces on an instrument such as a piano or violin, then I would agree that 'education' is not necessarily a requirement in order to 'appreciate' or like the music of Bach, but I would add that it certainly might help.

A piece of classical music, especially a whole symphony or opera, is a vastly more complex work than the average pop song. An explanation (education) as to what's going on can often increase one's enjoyment of the music.

I've made it clear in previous threads that I have a broad view of education. It can be divided into 'formal', 'non-formal' and 'informal'.
Informal education plays a huge role in shaping people's likes and preferences. In fact, there's some scientific evidence that the first stages of learning begin in the womb. Refer to the following article at:  http://news.sciencemag.org/brain-behavior/2013/08/babies-learn-recognize-words-womb

Surely you have heard of the concept of 'acquired taste'. One acquires a taste for something through repeated exposure to it and a willingness to be receptive and learn. Whether the acquired taste be for food, wine, music or any other form of art, it is all a part of education in the broad sense. It should be a lifelong learning experience.

If a Westerner has never been exposed to Arabian, Indian, or Chinese music, for example,  it could be said he is ignorant of it. On first hearing it, he will most probably dislike it. However, through repeated exposure to the music, perhaps as a result of moving to Arabia, India or China for work purposes, he might acquire a taste for the music.

On the other hand, he might choose to remain ignorant, even when living in the foreign country, and insulate himself as far as possible from any exposure to the traditional music of that country.

Now, as for denigrating pop music, I don't know if you are referring to me, but I have written that I can enjoy any type music if it has pleasing or interesting melody and harmony, and if the music is performed with a reasonable degree of skill. I happen to like much of Abba's music for example.

What I dislike are incoherent lyrics screamed by untrained voices at amplified, ear-damaging levels, a situation which appears to be common in the case of rock and pop concerts.

This view is not a result of my being an old fogey who deprecates the tastes of the younger generation. I've always avoided uncomfortable sound levels, and as a result, my hearing is still good in my old age. In fact, it's good enough for me to still detect and feel the discomfort of amplified music which is dangerously loud.

Of course, classical music can sometimes be dangerously loud for the musicians in the orchestra, but rarely for the audience who is seated some distance away. Also, a characteristic of classical music is that the really loud passages are quite brief. Damage to one's hearing is related not just to the sound pressure levels but also to the duration of those levels. For example, the following noise exposures are considered to have the same ear-damaging potential: 80 dB for 8 hours; 83 dB for 4 hours; 86 dB for 2 hours; 89 dB for 1 hour; 92 dB for 30 minutes.

In my experience, a characteristic of many rock concerts is the continuity of the deafening sound levels. There's no respite. I've seen reports that such sound levels can be as high as 140dB for someone close to and in front of the loudspeakers.

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mezzoduomo
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« Reply #83 on: November 12, 2013, 10:12:37 PM »
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What I dislike are incoherent lyrics screamed by untrained voices.....

Perhaps it's an acquired taste.

Surely you have heard of the concept of 'acquired taste'. One acquires a taste for something through repeated exposure to it and a willingness to be receptive and learn.
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jjj
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« Reply #84 on: November 12, 2013, 11:29:30 PM »
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I find that a very pessimistic statement and it seems quite incorrect to me. You're implying, if one doesn't like Bach, there's nothing one can do about it. Education cannot help. Education has no bearing on the matter. One is stuck with a genetically-wired taste, so to speak, which cannot be modified. Dear me! How awful![
Yeah, terrible that. Fancy being born with a liking for Bach. If not, you enjoy something else - just as much.

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If a Westerner has never been exposed to Arabian, Indian, or Chinese music, for example,  it could be said he is ignorant of it. On first hearing it, he will most probably dislike it. However, through repeated exposure to the music, perhaps as a result of moving to Arabia, India or China for work purposes, he might acquire a taste for the music.
That's a sdifferent thing from acquired taste and exactly the same can be said about all genres of music you are not familiar with. With unfamiliar music or languages, all you hear all the similarities. Once you know something, then you can start to discern the differences between say a son, a cumbia and a merengue in Latin music or that someone is speaking Hokkien and not Mandarin and that their accent is from a particular region in South China. And guess what, my personal tastes that determine whether I like individual Latin tracks do not differ from what I like about specific Western songs. Same goes for African music, the things I do not care for in Jit music I also dislike in say rock music. For example a high proportion of tracks that I really like in a variety of very different musical genres, swing. Something I only realised after learning various swing dances. Swing does not equate as many people incorrectly think to jazz music. Particularly 1930's jazz.  


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Now, as for denigrating pop music, I don't know if you are referring to me, but I have written that I can enjoy any type music if it has pleasing or interesting melody and harmony, and if the music is performed with a reasonable degree of skill. I happen to like much of Abba's music for example.

What I dislike are incoherent lyrics screamed by untrained voices at amplified, ear-damaging levels, a situation which appears to be common in the case of rock and pop concerts.

This view is not a result of my being an old fogey who deprecates the tastes of the younger generation. I've always avoided uncomfortable sound levels, and as a result, my hearing is still good in my old age. In fact, it's good enough for me to still detect and feel the discomfort of amplified music which is dangerously loud.
Actually if your hearing becomes impaired, you may get more sensitised to loud volumes. And thinking you are down with the kids and not an old fogey because you like Abba, only proves how stuck in the past you are. ABBA are from the 1970s, we are now in the second decade of the following century. Original ABBA fans are probably grandparents by now.

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In my experience, a characteristic of many rock concerts is the continuity of the deafening sound levels. There's no respite. I've seen reports that such sound levels can be as high as 140dB for someone close to and in front of the loudspeakers.
I like my hearing, so I always use ear protection if somewhere loud, so not an issue. I also would not be stupid enough to stand in front of speakers designed to fill a stadium with adequate volume.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 11:31:01 AM by jjj » Logged

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amolitor
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« Reply #85 on: November 13, 2013, 09:40:21 AM »
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I find that a very pessimistic statement and it seems quite incorrect to me. You're implying, if one doesn't like Bach, there's nothing one can do about it. Education cannot help. Education has no bearing on the matter. One is stuck with a genetically-wired taste, so to speak, which cannot be modified. Dear me! How awful!

I am implying no such thing. I have no idea where you got this from, but it's a complete misreading of a fairly simple statement.
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jjj
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« Reply #86 on: November 13, 2013, 11:29:18 AM »
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I am implying no such thing. I have no idea where you got this from, but it's a complete misreading of a fairly simple statement.
Ray seems to have misconstrued most of my posts, not matter how plain the meaning of them may be. So par for the course.
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amolitor
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« Reply #87 on: November 13, 2013, 08:17:21 PM »
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Ray seems to have misconstrued most of my posts, not matter how plain the meaning of them may be. So par for the course.

It's a pretty common modus operandi among people who mainly want to fight on the internets. It saves you both the trouble of reading what the other chap wrote, and of making a coherent counter-argument. You just assume he said something really dumb, and rebut that instead. I get this rather a lot, and have for, gosh, 25 years now.
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jjj
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« Reply #88 on: November 14, 2013, 04:28:19 AM »
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I don't think Ray simply wants a fight, he genuinely has a different opinion. But somehow he is unable to see sentences with information that may contradict his world view.
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Ray
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« Reply #89 on: November 14, 2013, 04:31:40 PM »
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Ray is the sort of person who has a clear sense of the importance of the meaning of words and understands that many apparently endless arguments result from the lack of a common understanding among the participants of certain key words and terms that both sides are using.

It has become very apparent to Ray that key words in this thread that could potentially be the source of much confusion, are 'education' and 'ignorance', so Ray has attempted to define what he means when using such words, but apparently to no avail.
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mezzoduomo
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« Reply #90 on: November 14, 2013, 04:52:08 PM »
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And....Ray is now referring to himself in the third person, which is odd, and should be discouraged. Kind of like Elmo on Sesame Street.
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jjj
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« Reply #91 on: November 15, 2013, 05:06:10 AM »
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Ray is the sort of person who has a clear sense of the importance of the meaning of words and understands that many apparently endless arguments result from the lack of a common understanding among the participants of certain key words and terms that both sides are using.

It has become very apparent to Ray that key words in this thread that could potentially be the source of much confusion, are 'education' and 'ignorance', so Ray has attempted to define what he means when using such words, but apparently to no avail.
We know exactly what those words mean, the problem is that you don't acknowledge posts that contain information that runs counter to your world view. Which in fact is the biggest issue with discussions of any kind. The irony being [are you after an award for unintentional irony or something] is that you are choosing to remain ignorant of alternative viewpoints.

What you have been doing is using yourself, your own very personal taste and your own specific experience to generalise to everyone else on the planet. Not only is that a bit daft, but you've done it despite evidence of others with the same opportunities still not liking 'complex' music.
Personal taste is personal taste. No more no less. Do you really think if you hadn't had music lessons in school that you would dislike Bach?

And referring to yourself in the third person - really? Should we be getting worried about you?
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Ray
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« Reply #92 on: November 15, 2013, 05:45:43 AM »
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We know exactly what those words mean

If that's the case, you should tell the readers what your exact understanding is, because most words of an abstract nature have a number of variations in meaning, depending on use and context.
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Ray
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« Reply #93 on: November 15, 2013, 06:01:51 AM »
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And....Ray is now referring to himself in the third person, which is odd, and should be discouraged. Kind of like Elmo on Sesame Street.

Why should it be discouraged? Was my meaning not clear? Using the third person is quite a common literary style. Check your dictionary.

What is less common is using the second-person in which the narrator refers to the reader as "you", as in Reply #80 where amolitor wrote, "You certainly don't need any education at all to like Bach."

Using the second person in this context can be confusing. Is amolitor trying to say that I personally (that is, Ray) do not need any education at all to appreciate Bach because I'm such an inherently cultured person, having been exposed to the music of Bach whilst still in my mother's womb?

Whilst that might not be an entirely implausible scenario, I suspect amolitor really means that people in general do not need any education at all to appreciate Bach. If that's what he means, one can't help wondering what other process is required for someone to appreciate Bach, apart from education of some form, because I think it is true to say that most people do not particularly like Bach.
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mezzoduomo
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« Reply #94 on: November 15, 2013, 07:32:35 AM »
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Why should it be discouraged? Using the third person is quite a common literary style.

It should be discouraged because mezzoduomo says so, that's why. And mezzoduomo does not agree that its a 'common' literary style. Mezzoduomo would characterize it as a quirky style, often used to highlight a character's narcissism. Finally, mezzoduomo would posit again that the use of the third person in a forum post is odd, supported by the contention that forum posts are not exactly 'literary'.
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jjj
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« Reply #95 on: November 15, 2013, 08:12:13 AM »
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hWhilst that might not be an entirely implausible scenario, I suspect amolitor really means that people in general do not need any education at all to appreciate Bach. If that's what he means, one can't help wondering what other process is required for someone to appreciate Bach, apart from education of some form.
PERSONAL TASTE. PERSONAL TASTE. PERSONAL TASTE. PERSONAL TASTE. PERSONAL TASTE. PERSONAL TASTE. PERSONAL TASTE. PERSONAL EFFING TASTE!
It varies. Duh!

This is getting like your utterly ridiculous posts on perspective.
Besides, since when was it a requirement to like Bach, Beethoven or indeed Bieber?
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Isaac
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« Reply #96 on: November 15, 2013, 10:50:45 AM »
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Whilst that might not be an entirely implausible scenario, I suspect amolitor really means that people in general do not need any education at all to appreciate Bach. If that's what he means, one can't help wondering what other process is required for someone to appreciate Bach, apart from education of some form, because I think it is true to say that most people do not particularly like Bach.

Besides, since when was it a requirement to like Bach, Beethoven or indeed Bieber?

Those words do not suggest that Ray considers it a requirement to like Bach.
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jjj
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« Reply #97 on: November 15, 2013, 11:40:09 AM »
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They do in context of whole thread and the parts of my post you elided.
Apparently the only reason why Bach isn't more popular is due to everyone's lack of education in Bach.
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Isaac
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« Reply #98 on: November 15, 2013, 11:50:48 AM »
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No, "in context of whole thread" the words are about what factors are required to form an appreciation of Bach's music, not about a requirement to appreciate Bach's music.

You seem to be quarrelling with yourself.
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jjj
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« Reply #99 on: November 15, 2013, 01:03:57 PM »
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Ray's seems quite perturbed that people do not like Bach. He seems to think we should like Bach or we are missing out. If only we had the right education.
Not sure why he thinks we should like any musician/composer.

And how on Earth am I now quarrelling with myself?  Huh I'm not the one talking about myself in the third person.


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