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Author Topic: C1 Pro and X-Rite Colorchecker  (Read 6801 times)
andreagenor
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« on: October 07, 2013, 09:37:25 AM »
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What's the correct workflow using Colorchecker Passport and Capture One Pro?

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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2013, 10:32:40 AM »
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What's the correct workflow using Colorchecker Passport and Capture One Pro?

use free tools like rawdigger ( http://www.rawdigger.com/usermanual/selection-grid) / argyll ( argyll has 3rd party GUI front ends like CoCa = http://www.muscallidus.com/coca/ or MakeInputICC = http://sail2ithaki.livejournal.com/191061.html ) to build icc/icm profiles

*** note that C1 wants LAB PCS & lut in AtoB0Tag it you want to use internal color editor in C1 later (that means that a custom icc profile which is pure matrix only + cieXYZ PCS will not be accepted by internal color editor in C1 if you decide to fine tune color inside C1 itself, even if it works just fine for raw conversion there) - at least that was an issue reported by people quite recently.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2013, 11:33:49 AM by Vladimirovich » Logged
andreagenor
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« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2013, 12:25:06 PM »
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Thank you, I will try!
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andreagenor
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« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2013, 01:27:28 PM »
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Not work Sad

In the C1 I go to Color Tab > Base Characteristics > ICC Profile > Import .
So pop up this message: No profiles were imported

Capture One only import *.icm file and "Make Imput ICC"only export *.icc

I not understand why is so complicated to do this in C1, with LR or PS is very easy.
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2013, 01:46:35 PM »
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Capture One only import *.icm file and "Make Imput ICC"only export *.icc

rename
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andreagenor
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« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2013, 01:52:02 PM »
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I did, but the colors appear wrong
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andreagenor
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« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2013, 03:28:29 PM »
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Look this.
the image is little blurry, I did fast without tripod

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EsbenHR
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« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2013, 10:43:54 PM »
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use free tools like rawdigger ( http://www.rawdigger.com/usermanual/selection-grid) / argyll ( argyll has 3rd party GUI front ends like CoCa = http://www.muscallidus.com/coca/ or MakeInputICC = http://sail2ithaki.livejournal.com/191061.html ) to build icc/icm profiles

*** note that C1 wants LAB PCS & lut in AtoB0Tag it you want to use internal color editor in C1 later (that means that a custom icc profile which is pure matrix only + cieXYZ PCS will not be accepted by internal color editor in C1 if you decide to fine tune color inside C1 itself, even if it works just fine for raw conversion there) - at least that was an issue reported by people quite recently.

You will need to process the image in Capture One first, and select "Embedded" color profile. This will apply all the pre-processing steps, including non-linear curves, to the image, but the ICC profile will not be applied (it is embedded in the file). You want to create a color profile that replaces the embedded ICC, so the profiling tool needs to ignore the embedded ICC profile.

An image with an embedded profile will also contain the now-standard TIFF tag ProfileToneCurve (to go back to linear space). In theory, this should make it a much easier job for a profile creator, but they must obviously be aware of that fact. It could even require a different set of algorithms, depending on the exact way the software builds the profile.

It does require some fiddling to get this to work with tools I am aware of. X-Rite did a good job of making the process easy to apply for the supported Adobe products; it is not a simple thing to do from an engineering point of view. The quality of the resulting profiles are, I suppose, a subjective matter.

Oh, and Capture One supported XYZ as a PCS for some time now. It does require the 'A2B0' table to be there, so a pure matrix profile will not work. Caveat: that feature is not tested thoroughly, so please knock yourself out and report any issues ;-)

Kind regards,

Esben H-R Myosotis
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2013, 09:09:36 AM »
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Oh, and Capture One supported XYZ as a PCS for some time now. It does require the 'A2B0' table to be there, so a pure matrix profile will not work.
pure matrix with cieXYZ pcs will work for raw conversion, just it will not work in C1's internal color editor (that part of C1 requires 'A2B0' to be in profile already).
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2013, 09:18:32 AM »
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You will need to process the image in Capture One first, and select "Embedded" color profile.
no, a simple workflow using rawdigger and argyll (with frontends like MakeInputICC) does not need a .tiff file at all, rawdigger works directly from a raw file ( http://sail2ithaki.livejournal.com/187421.html ) ... certainly you can use C1 and make a .tiff file and feed it towards some alternative software that does not work with raw files directly.
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EsbenHR
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« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2013, 02:33:40 AM »
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pure matrix with cieXYZ pcs will work for raw conversion, just it will not work in C1's internal color editor (that part of C1 requires 'A2B0' to be in profile already).

Sure. I meant the color editor works with XYZ-profiles if the A2B0 table is there.
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EsbenHR
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« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2013, 02:51:14 AM »
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no, a simple workflow using rawdigger and argyll (with frontends like MakeInputICC) does not need a .tiff file at all, rawdigger works directly from a raw file ( http://sail2ithaki.livejournal.com/187421.html ) ... certainly you can use C1 and make a .tiff file and feed it towards some alternative software that does not work with raw files directly.

You may be able to build a profile the way you describe, but the profile will not be useful in Capture One.

The ICC profile is not applied directly to the RAW data in Capture One. I think it would be insane to do so except in very special circumstances, and in those circumstances you want better resolution than an ICC profile provides anyway. You have at very least a film-curve and a gamma-conversion, possibly more depending on the camera.

The profile builder will either need to do the same processing Capture One does prior to applying the ICC, or you need to process the image in Capture One. I only see the last option is a viable way to work.
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2013, 09:46:46 AM »
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You may be able to build a profile the way you describe, but the profile will not be useful in Capture One.

it shall be

The ICC profile is not applied directly to the RAW data in Capture One.

I am not sure what do you mean by "raw" data ? if you mean that C1 does demosaicking first that is not an issue - data is still scene referred... are you implying that C1 does some internal color transform from scene-referred RGB data into some color space before starting to use the data in icc profile ? that can't be so... are you implying that C1 does apply some curves before or after demosaicking ? that again has nothing to damage application of the pure matrix profile...

i
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EsbenHR
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« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2013, 12:26:45 AM »
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I am not sure what do you mean by "raw" data ?

The output of a hypothetical RAW converter that only did demosaic and white balance. However, even in this simple case you can get in trouble. IIRC, DNG specifies a white-point dependent camera matrix.

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if you mean that C1 does demosaicking first that is not an issue - data is still scene referred... are you implying that C1 does some internal color transform from scene-referred RGB data into some color space before starting to use the data in icc profile ? that can't be so...

It is so.

It would be stupid to feed linear data to the ICC, so at least you want a gamma conversion. In DNG there can be a camera matrix and the (usually strongly non-linear filmcurve) is also applied before the ICC profile.

Sometimes there are other steps, but I am not going to discuss our pipe in any details without an NDA.

Capture One has this power feature where you can embed the camera profile in the processed file instead of converting to some standard color-space. How do you think that is possible?

Cameras are not created equal. If you want to convert all images into a standard color-space at the beginning, particularly with something as blunt as an ICC profile, then you loose a great deal of your ability do camera specific optimizations.
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2013, 09:42:57 AM »
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It is so.




ok, so tell me which specific color space C1 does convert to (from camera's) before it starts using the data from icc  Wink ?

It would be stupid to feed linear data to the ICC, so at least you want a gamma conversion. In DNG there can be a camera matrix and the (usually strongly non-linear filmcurve) is also applied before the ICC profile.

what DNG has to do with all this (we are talking abour C1 and not ACR/LR) and how the pure matrix conversion is negatively affected by a curve(s) applied to demosaicked or not demosaicked data for before using that matrix to do a color transform from a scene referred data into some proper color space ? RPP does exactly that - roughly : wb, curves, etc before demosaick, then demosaick and then color transform as the last stage and pure matrix profiles do work properly... for as long as C1 does not do color transform from camera's "color space" into something else pure matrix profile shall work as intended regardless of whatever curves it applies internally before matrix from profile.




Sometimes there are other steps, but I am not going to discuss our pipe in any details without an NDA.

"our pipe" ? are you a P1 employee (like Eric Chan is Adobe's) ?


Capture One has this power feature where you can embed the camera profile in the processed file instead of converting to some standard color-space. How do you think that is possible?

what is has to do with the fact that you can build and use simple matrix profiles in C1 w/o using C1 itself to generate a tiff file ?

Cameras are not created equal. If you want to convert all images into a standard color-space at the beginning

where did you get that I want to "convert all ...." ? my point is that you can build a simple matrix profile that directs how C1 will do a color transform from a scene referred data into PCS w/o using C1 itself and that's it

, particularly with something as blunt as an ICC profile, then you loose a great deal of your ability do camera specific optimizations.

that is not the subject of our discussion - the subject is very simple : whether it is necessary to use C1 to generate a tiff file from a target shot to build a simple matrix profile to be used in ICC or not
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andreagenor
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« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2013, 01:04:21 PM »
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Sorry, but I think it is turning a discussion that did not help me.
My English is not good and would just like to know if there is a simple way to solve my problem.
Recently I photographed some clothes and something very strange happened, because the color of clothing was a cyan but appear like green but the picture was totally different.
All other clothes and other colors were correct, only that it was happening cyan.
I bought the Color Checker Passport to calibrate my images and get the correct colors.
I can use LR / ACR, but I prefer Capture One.
If there is not an easy way I'll use the ACR when these situations arise.

If someone has the easy way to correct image color using ColorCheckerPassport, please post some video tutorials.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2013, 01:38:17 PM »
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For your situation I suggest you not bother with "calibration" at all.

Use Color Editor to make a quick adjustment to that color.

It will take only a few seconds (once you learn Color Editor).
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2013, 01:40:38 PM »
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Sorry, but I think it is turning a discussion that did not help me.
My English is not good and would just like to know if there is a simple way to solve my problem.
Recently I photographed some clothes and something very strange happened, because the color of clothing was a cyan but appear like green but the picture was totally different.
All other clothes and other colors were correct, only that it was happening cyan.
I bought the Color Checker Passport to calibrate my images and get the correct colors.
I can use LR / ACR, but I prefer Capture One.
If there is not an easy way I'll use the ACR when these situations arise.

If someone has the easy way to correct image color using ColorCheckerPassport, please post some video tutorials.

C1 has internal color editor where you can selectively adjust some colors and save that as a profile (icc) to use in future...
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andreagenor
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« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2013, 01:44:46 PM »
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For your situation I suggest you not bother with "calibration" at all.

Use Color Editor to make a quick adjustment to that color.

It will take only a few seconds (once you learn Color Editor).

Doug, I did with color editor, but the color not match perfectly, and there are some variations that need different edits.
I need a solution for solve this problem and guarantee the perfect colors, without hard manual work.
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andreagenor
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« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2013, 01:50:19 PM »
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C1 has internal color editor where you can selectively adjust some colors and save that as a profile (icc) to use in future...

Vladimirovich,
I know, but the adjustment is manual and sometimes not reaches the color you need.
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