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Author Topic: Alpha 7(R) and M lenses  (Read 6458 times)
Craig Arnold
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« on: October 16, 2013, 07:46:38 AM »
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I have long been somewhat suspicious of being able to use my (small) collection of M-mount lenses via adapters.

I suspected there must be scope for very substantial degradation of quality, and any misalignment and vignetting of course will be far worse on these high resolution FF sensors. Consider the extraordinary lengths Michael goes to with regard to shimming his Alpa body to optimise quality on a pixel density that is probably lower than that in the R body.

Now there is some evidence: http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/09/there-is-no-free-lunch-episode-763-lens-adapters

So I must admit to being very sceptical of Michael's recommendation that:

Overall, I can not recommend the A7R highly enough for anyone looking to find a new body for their Leica lenses, and who find the price of an M240 a bridge too far, as I did last year. And for those of you with M8, M9 or M240 bodies, the A7R makes a relatively inexpensive second body as well.

I think it is more likely to simply show in very high resolution how horrible even the best lens adapters can really be. Course I haven't used it and Michael has.

This doesn't detract hugely from the appeal of the cameras overall however, my lens needs are modest, and the 35 f2.8 is probably all I'd need anyway, hopefully a nice small slow Zeiss wide-angle will follow in the not-too-distant future. I think I have finally found the system to replace my gracefully aging 5DMkII.
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fike
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« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2013, 07:56:55 AM »
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the heterogeneous lens story on the Alpha 7 cameras is interesting, but I remain a bit skeptical that the full-frame lenses will be compact lenses.  It is indeed interesting that the smaller NEX lenses can be used in APS-C mode, but I am not sure the NEX lenses are really THAT compact anyway.  (compared to MFT) It will be interesting to see this camera first hand with these lenses. 

The miniaturization trend is much easier with mirrorless bodies, but maintaining excellence in fast, compact, full-frame lenses seems to be a bigger challenge. 
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barryfitzgerald
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« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2013, 08:18:43 AM »
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The reason FF NEX lenses are so big is quite simple. Unlike the traditional range finder lenses they have in body AF motors not MF, some have OSS, and electronic aperture control. Simply put this is clearly going to impact on lens size quite a bit.

I did read the articles, as a long time Minolta users my thoughts are mixed.
For a FF choice the prices are "ok" in Europe but not really any lower than the current FF offerings from Canikon (6d or D600 both are cheaper than the 24mp Sony 7) So I don't expect a massive stampede from Canikon users.

The 36mp option might pull a few Canon FF users who want to get big resolution and pick up an adaptor.
I can't speak for M mount users, but clearly it is going to be a much more affordable choice for them and make a lot of sense.

For A mount users the situation is again not really clear. I personally don't see an end to A mount for obvious reasons, it's been around too long and it's got a good range of optics (though not entirely complete) The adaptors are not ideal either the basic one will only AF with in lens motors, the PDAF one is expensive and bulky. Had Sony made an adaptor which did support screw drive lenses for a much more reasonable cost it might have had a lot more appeal.

The other issues is A Mount users currently have in body stabilisation which works even with vintage 1985 onwards Minolta/Third party lenses, this is a big deal to current A Mount users as they lose this with the new 7 bodies.

On the lenses side I think it was a big yawn all around, big, slower lenses that are priced quite high. The main appeal of the system could actually be a weakness for Sony. If they want to get FF users on-board with adaptors then few will want to buy the native Sony lenses. As a longer term strategy it seems clear to me that Sony can sell the bodies to various people, but they might as well forget about making lenses for it, because I can't see it taking off as yet another system to buy into. So the "can be adapted mount" has advantages for selling the body, but it kills a lot of native lens sales potential.

Price wise anything that can bring down the cost of FF is welcome, they're priced ok in Europe, but not at a point where they so cheap as to cause a revolution. Street prices might fall, but they someone has to hit that magic 999 price point and under soon.

Bit mixed overall really, it has potential no question. Depends what camp you are coming from.
I think the biggest impact will be for Olympus who are trying to charge 1299 odd for an OMD-EM-1

It already looked a bit pricey, now it just looks like a complete rip off. Expect massive price cuts soon!
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 08:21:11 AM by barryfitzgerald » Logged
Jim Pascoe
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« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2013, 08:20:09 AM »
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I notice that both the better quality zoom lenses in the lens roadmap are f4 constant apertures, rather than 2.8's.  Presumably that is to keep them as compact as possible.  


Jim
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fike
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« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2013, 08:23:38 AM »
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I notice that both the better quality zoom lenses in the lens roadmap are f4 constant apertures, rather than 2.8's.  Presumably that is to keep them as compact as possible.  


Jim

I noticed that too...and that f/4 aperture diminishes one of the big complaints about cropped sensor cameras--inability to get really shallow depth of field. 
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mcbroomf
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« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2013, 08:54:21 AM »
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Michael, this is a bit confusing ... did you mean 24megapixels (not mm)?

If so then just note that the APS-C crop will be 16MP as it's a 1.5 squared change (area not linear)

"The A7R has a new lens mount based on the NEX E mount. It's called FE, with F obviously standing for full-frame. Even though the mount is Full Frame rather than APS-C, all Sony NEX compatible E mount lenses fit without an adaptor and work normally. Of course since they only cover the APS-C format the camera recognizes this and the frame is cropped automatically. You end up with roughtly a 24MM APS-C camera, akin to a NEX-7."
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Mike Broomfield
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2013, 09:37:25 AM »
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I noticed that too...and that f/4 aperture diminishes one of the big complaints about cropped sensor cameras--inability to get really shallow depth of field. 

I'm not too sure I follow you there.... Maybe I'm being dim!

I know the cropped sensor cameras inherently have more apparent DoF for any given aperture - but there are much wider aperture lenses already available for smaller sensors - even up to the f0.95 on my Voigtlander.

But maybe you are saying the f4 is just going to bring the new Sony down to the same standard as f2.8 or f2 on cropped sensor.  Anyway, I think we both know what we mean!

Jim
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fike
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« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2013, 09:44:45 AM »
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...
But maybe you are saying the f4 is just going to bring the new Sony down to the same standard as f2.8 or f2 on cropped sensor.  Anyway, I think we both know what we mean!

Jim


That is what I am saying.
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Fike, Trailpixie, or Marc Shaffer
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« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2013, 09:50:15 AM »
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I am sure that Nikon and Canon will soon follow with similar bodies...
If Nikon would bring out a V10 with the same possibilities as the V1 but then Full frame i would love to buy it.
No sound at all
60fps full size images up to 30 ( halve a second)
very fast and accurate autofocus
good EVF making manual focussing perfect- see more in the dark
very precise light meter
using all available nikkor lenses
...



« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 09:52:27 AM by kers » Logged

Pieter Kers
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« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2013, 09:52:28 AM »
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I noticed that too...and that f/4 aperture diminishes one of the big complaints about cropped sensor cameras--inability to get really shallow depth of field.  
Though it is roughly true that f/4 in 36x24mm matches only about f/2.8 in Sony/Nikon 24x16mm "APS-C" format for DOF wide open and light-gathering speed (and hence low light performance), f/4 in a larger format has some potential advantages over a "DOF and light gathering speed equivalent" lens in a smaller format: the higher minimum f-stop leads to easier optical designs, allowing wider zoom ranges and/or better optical quality wide open. But the initial FE lenses squander the zoom range potential, with zoom ranges no wider than for traditional f/2.8 designs! where is the 24-100/4 or 24-120/4, akin to designs already offered by Nikon and Olympus? Sony seems to have the goal of "smaller lenses to match smaller bodies" here more than with NEX lenses, which seems back-to-front.

In particular, the 28-70/3.5-5.6 kit lens for the A7, costing only $300 when bought in a kit, seems like a marketing stunt, designed to hit a marketing goal for low kit weight and price (US$2000).

Also, in the real world of high quality photography, away from forum spec sheet format wars, I suspect that the greater attraction of a larger format is the IQ benefits of greater dynamic range and/or image detail, rather than maximally blurry backgrounds. (For example, MF and LF photography have never pushed much in the direction of offering shallower DOF than 35mm film format; instead mostly offering lenses of distinctly higher minimum f-stops.)

If so then just note that the APS-C crop will be 16MP as it's a 1.5 squared change (area not linear)
Yes if the crop is all the way down to the 24x16mm of Sony's "APS-C" format, that gives 16MP crop from the 36MP sensor and about 11MP from the 24MP option.

But one question I would like answered is how much one can go beyond 24x16mm before vignetting sets in with various lenses at various focal lengths. My guess is that towards the long end of zoom lenses, and with any lens at a focal focal lengths beyond about 80mm, there will not be much of a problem. for one thing, the image circle of a zoom lens often increases in size as one zooms in, so that for example the Nikon 12-24DX cover the full 36x24mm frame near its long end, from about 19mm up.

One other feature not mentioned by Michael (or did I miss it?): these E-mpount 36x24mm format bodies are almost "universal receptors" for 35mm format SLR lenses, at least for fully manual and mechanical operation of focus and aperture. (Rangefinder lenses might have problems, due to highly off-perpendicular incidence of light near the corners with some such lenses.)
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 05:55:13 PM by BJL » Logged
mcbroomf
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« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2013, 09:57:30 AM »
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I use almost all adapted lenses on a 5N so I'm also interested in how well the 7r will do.  Sony have engineered offset ulenses on the 7r to help with corners (no doubt learned from the issues on the NEX 7).  We'll see what works and what doesn't pretty soon I hope.
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Mike Broomfield
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barryfitzgerald
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« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2013, 09:59:37 AM »
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Canon and Nikon are unlikely to respond at this time with a FF ILC body.
If Sony start throwing big punches (ie price cutting) then they will have to respond with lower prices on the 6d, and D610. They might also have a few tricks left think FF DSLR body nothing fancy, no sealing and no mag alloy. Think a Canon Rebel souped up a tad and full frame. Worked wonders for Canon with the 300d it paved a decade's growth for them in DSLR's if you start hitting price points you bring people onboard.

You can kiss goodbye to the OM-D EM-1's release price too , and forget about paying 1000+ for an APC-C 70d or similar bodies (subject to Sony going for it price wise)
So it's good news all around if Sony want to take the fight on (if they do that is)

It won't have any impact on the pro FF market for obvious reasons.
So some potential there, but forget about FE mount native lenses...people are interested in the body not the big overpriced slow lenses we've seen.
That's good for Sony selling the bodies, but they should think twice about building up a system few will ever buy.
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michael
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« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2013, 10:18:35 AM »
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I'm not too sure I follow you there.... Maybe I'm being dim!

I know the cropped sensor cameras inherently have more apparent DoF for any given aperture - but there are much wider aperture lenses already available for smaller sensors - even up to the f0.95 on my Voigtlander.

But maybe you are saying the f4 is just going to bring the new Sony down to the same standard as f2.8 or f2 on cropped sensor.  Anyway, I think we both know what we mean!

Jim


My error. Yes, it's believe it's 16MP.
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michael
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« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2013, 10:20:13 AM »
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My testing showed good results with M lenses starting at 35mm. Wider lenses are iffy. It very much depends on the lens' design.

Michael
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E.J. Peiker
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« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2013, 10:37:02 AM »
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Note there is an error in the availability of the Zeiss 24-70, it should say 2014 not 2013 Smiley
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KLaban
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« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2013, 11:40:10 AM »
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My testing showed good results with M lenses starting at 35mm. Wider lenses are iffy. It very much depends on the lens' design.

Well, there's a surprise.
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mcbroomf
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« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2013, 01:36:27 PM »
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My testing showed good results with M lenses starting at 35mm. Wider lenses are iffy. It very much depends on the lens' design.

Michael

Corner smearing or just colour shifts Michael? (on your wides)

Thanks
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Mike Broomfield
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« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2013, 01:53:56 PM »
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My testing showed good results with M lenses starting at 35mm. Wider lenses are iffy. It very much depends on the lens' design.

Michael


Hi Michael,

Any comments on the 35 Lux FLE or 24 Elmar specifically?  Is the 35 Lux totally clean and sharp? The 24 Elmar is great on the NEX-6, but shows strong shift on the NEX-7, so very curious about that as well...
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Isaac
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« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2013, 02:25:41 PM »
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Quote
a built-in high-resolution EVF

Are previous concerns about Sony A99 EVF also relevant for this new Alpha?

"I believe that the marketplace success of the Sony A99 will rest on whether advanced photographers considering the purchase of a top-speced, large sized, full frame DSLR will find the use of an EVF preferable to a large DSLR's optical viewing system."
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BJL
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« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2013, 05:54:18 PM »
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... the initial FE lenses squander the zoom range potential, with zoom ranges no wider than for traditional f/2.8 designs! where is the 24-100/4 or 24-120/4, akin to designs already offered by Nikon and Olympus?
P. S. Sigma has announced just the sort of lens I was thinking of:
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/product/24-105mm-f4-dg-os-hsm-art
But no Sony mount AFAIK.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2013, 05:58:09 PM by BJL » Logged
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