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Author Topic: Canon's lack of a roadmap  (Read 8336 times)
geesbert
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« on: October 19, 2013, 12:11:22 PM »
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Can anyone explain, please?

Why is Canon not teasing us with a reoadmap for a high MP camera? I am sure a lot of people are switching camps, and I am about, too....
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jrsforums
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« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2013, 12:28:18 PM »
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Can anyone explain, please?

Why is Canon not teasing us with a reoadmap for a high MP camera? I am sure a lot of people are switching camps, and I am about, too....

If you absolutely want and/or need higher resolution NOW, you have no choice but to switch.

Only the naive would think that Canon is not working on a response or leap-frog-jump.  With development projects, committing a product on a date is lose, lose.  The odds of exactly hitting that date with exactly what was promised is slim...stuff happens.....if you are late or early there will be user and press complaints.
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Justinr
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« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2013, 12:49:07 PM »
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Can anyone explain, please?

Why is Canon not teasing us with a reoadmap for a high MP camera? I am sure a lot of people are switching camps, and I am about, too....

One wonders at what point will you have enough pixels in your camera?
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LKaven
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« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2013, 01:39:57 PM »
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One wonders at what point will you have enough pixels in your camera?

That will be when the camera stops delivering (1) lower noise per unit area of the sensor, and (2) higher MTF in the upper frequencies, even at web sizes.
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David Sutton
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« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2013, 04:50:34 PM »
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Can anyone explain, please?

Why is Canon not teasing us with a reoadmap for a high MP camera? I am sure a lot of people are switching camps, and I am about, too....

I can't explain it either. Canon's practice of only making small improvements with each new model, and disabling some features in the cheaper models to create an artificial price differential makes them look poor. Next year I plan to switch.
I couldn't see that the 5D3 was worth the price of the upgrade. The 5D2 (with Magic Lantern installed) still does the job that I bought it for, and does it well. I'm not paying for a better autofocus if it doesn't come with a significantly better high iso and dynamic range. More MP would be quite useful for the stuff I print.
I've used a 7D when I want better autofocus. Last month I borrowed a Fuji XE1. The autofocus is not as good, but the image quality and handling just leaves that Canon completely for dead in every respect. It's like another century ahead. I really look forward to owning a camera with EVF.
Furthermore, if Canon bring out a high MP camera I have no confidence based on past experience that it won't have bugs and that Canon will own up and fix them. (Nikon can be as guilty here as well). As I would have to upgrade my glass anyway, I may as well look around as see what else is out there and not wait around for an improved model that actually works.
Ideally I'd look for two bodies that take the same glass. One with a high  MP sensor for detailed work, and one with a crop sensor around 20 MP with a fast autofocus and frame rate. Good high iso would be nice.
Well, we can all live in hope.  Smiley
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BJL
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« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2013, 07:15:41 PM »
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Can anyone explain, please?

Why is Canon not teasing us with a reoadmap for a high MP camera? I am sure a lot of people are switching camps, and I am about, too....
The standard explanation is the Osborne effect: a company advertising its plans for future products that are distinctly better than what it offers now can inhibit sales of its current products, and so hurt more than it helps. Product roadmaps tend to be offered by companies in a position of some weakness relative to competitors, for example new systems which for now have a smaller market share and smaller lens offerings than direct competitors but are working on catching up, and for future products that add to current offerings, not supercede the [e.g. lens roadmaps for the newish Fujifilm X system or the brand new Sony FE mirrorless 35mm format system]. Canon, despite much online hand-wringing over the disadvantages of its sensors compared to its rivals, is still the SLR market leader, and has little need to show its hand prematurely.

Making promises of products that mostly catch up with what competitors already offer can also be earn contempt as vaporware, after the notorious case from the 1960's where IBM announced future models to match the then new supercomputer offerings from CDC, but never delivered.
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kikashi
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2013, 04:47:12 AM »
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http://www.dilbert.com/fast/2012-10-10/

Jeremy
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langier
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2013, 08:23:51 AM »
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If you are getting pleasing images with what you have and don't need the jump in final print sizes for a particular reason or client or it isn't adding to your bottom line, why make the switch?

Why not take that money and invest it in to making you a better photographer (workshop, class, seminar, training), or to buy opportunity to go out and shoot (travel to a distant place, gas to drive, etc.)?

The ROI is so much higher to spend those dollars on making one better than on the promise that a better camera will lead to better photos. It seldom will.
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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2013, 08:35:56 AM »
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If you are getting pleasing images with what you have and don't need the jump in final print sizes for a particular reason or client or it isn't adding to your bottom line, why make the switch?

Why not take that money and invest it in to making you a better photographer (workshop, class, seminar, training), or to buy opportunity to go out and shoot (travel to a distant place, gas to drive, etc.)?

The ROI is so much higher to spend those dollars on making one better than on the promise that a better camera will lead to better photos. It seldom will.

Logic when it comes to gear! What a concept. LOL

Peter
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tom b
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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2013, 04:38:43 PM »
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Amazingly Nikon's flagship camera the D4 is 16.2Mp and Canon's D1x is 18.1Mp.  The big two seem to have a very similar roadmap…

Cheers,
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LKaven
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« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2013, 06:18:48 PM »
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Amazingly Nikon's flagship camera the D4 is 16.2Mp and Canon's D1x is 18.1Mp.  The big two seem to have a very similar roadmap…

Cheers,

So the D4 sensor, which like the 1Dx, uses an outboard amp/A-D strategy, has an enormous full-well capacity of about 120k-e, which gives it clean blacks and high DR at ISO100 on a par with the D3x.  Will Canon step up their basic sensor technology, which tops out at approximately 12 stops of DR?  Eventually--but how?  The Exmor, which uses on-chip amp/A-D is the lowest noise chip out there, at over 14 stops of print DR.  Will Canon match that?  Will Canon pony-up in the very high MP sensors?  Can they do this without a sensor of equivalent performance as the Exmor? 

For that matter, will Nikon come in with a DX MILC?  Or an FX MILC? 
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Kirk Gittings
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« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2013, 06:32:11 PM »
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Correct me if I am wrong please, but despite all this Canon still outsells Nikon significantly correct? I don't think we know the breakdown of sales by models, but with all the odd strategy and outdated sensor they still rule the roost.
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Chris_Brown
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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2013, 08:15:16 PM »
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Correct me if I am wrong please, but despite all this Canon still outsells Nikon significantly correct? I don't think we know the breakdown of sales by models, but with all the odd strategy and outdated sensor they still rule the roost.

This article shows some info. The source info is in japanese.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2013, 08:37:38 PM by Chris_Brown » Logged

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sdwilsonsct
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« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2013, 08:58:02 PM »
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Why not take that money and invest it in to making you a better photographer (workshop, class, seminar, training), or to buy opportunity to go out and shoot (travel to a distant place, gas to drive, etc.)?

Agreed.
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geesbert
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« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2013, 03:22:28 AM »
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If you are getting pleasing images with what you have and don't need the jump in final print sizes for a particular reason or client or it isn't adding to your bottom line, why make the switch?

Why not take that money and invest it in to making you a better photographer (workshop, class, seminar, training), or to buy opportunity to go out and shoot (travel to a distant place, gas to drive, etc.)?

The ROI is so much higher to spend those dollars on making one better than on the promise that a better camera will lead to better photos. It seldom will.

what does traveling to distant places help if your client is asking for higher MP files? They want to crop and they want to ken burns in 4k, so the Canon files don't cut it.

I went MFD, but it doesn't suit my workflow.

I worked with Canon for years, and I really like their stuff, but recently I feel a bit abondoned.

I think it is such a shame that canon stopped catering for the professional studio photographer. When they came out with the first 1DS, many professionals threw away their MF gear and got that. Even the 1DX still seems to carry so much film EOS DNA, which I thing is really blocking them from evolving into a modern system.

I like what Sony is doing with the alpha 7 and 7r, they manage to move on and leave things behind that are crippeling them. having a camera with such a short flange distance, great HDMI out and no mirror makes it nearly modular, I can put nearly every lens I own onto it, can use the build-in viewfinder or an Eizo or a beamer for preview, I can strap it onto my Linhof without a mirrorbox getting in the way, I can give my AD an ipad while i keep on shooting and so on. So I get it anyway.

It is just just so weird that Canon is not able to tease me with what they might have up their sleeve.
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bcooter
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« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2013, 08:25:16 AM »
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.......snip........

I think it is such a shame that canon stopped catering for the professional studio photographer. When they came out with the first 1DS, many professionals threw away their MF gear and got that. Even the 1DX still seems to carry so much film EOS DNA, which I thing is really blocking them from evolving into a modern system.

I like what Sony is doing with the alpha 7 and 7r, they manage to move on and leave things behind that are crippeling them. .......snip

I'm a big fan of mirror-less, completely blown away by the video quality of the Pana Gh3's, have the OMD e5 for some stills and like most people find the development of the new Sony fascinating.

Though I still own Canon 1dx, 5d2 and 1ds and a large amount of glass.   Why?, because if you work all day with a mirror-less evf, (and they are getting much much better) and doing a dedicated still shoot, the Canon is so refined, with zero glitches.

18mpx seems small in todays 36 mpx world, but I've compared the 1dx files next to my two 1dsIII's and really compared them and found the 1dx had more real detail, plus it shoots at a crazy frame rate of like 10fps, shoots beautiful raws and jpegs, amazing autofocus, tethers bulletproof in DPP with ethernet (like nothing I've ever tethered before) and when it's all said and done, it's not a revolutionary camera, but it's a highly refined still camera.

Recently shooting a combination motion and still project, it was much easier just to continue the stills with a GH3 or Olympus because that's what we were using with some of the video, but after using an evf, going to the refinement and robust size and build of the 1dx made a huge difference in ease, file quality and results.  

We all love big new development but refinement really makes a difference and the continuity of the line is huge in terms of keeping your favorite lens set and not having to search out everything new from filter rings, to shades to learning new software or even complex camera menus.

I think for the casual photographer a sony 7 is great, same with the omd, so is the panasonic, but when your in to one of those 20 set up, 2,000 frame days, where it's a billion degrees, no time for any equipment glitches, going from flash to continuous, 2 screen heavy tethering, a mirror-less compared to a tried and test ovf, refined 1dx, is like a having 200 lbs of agro lifted from you.

In fact that's where all of these reviews on cameras fall down.  Sure people test the detail of the file, the focus accuracy, the color, tone, noise and accessories, added lenses using lcd focusing all doing casual walk about photography,  but they don't test in the brutal conditions we work under, those times when a client must see the image in 27" splendor, the ability to tether and see the image immediately on a large screen while also on the camera lcd.

It's the same thing with my RED cameras and the Gh3.  Sometimes I think why did I spend the money on RED's when the gh3 is so easy and so good, until it's very heavy production, you need 4 channel sound, cages that actually fit, finders and monitors that hook up professionally and secure, additional fan cooling, lens mounts that are tough and accurate, footage counts and file naming that is perfect and a dedicated software suite to process and you can rent anything for a Canon or RED in any market in the world.

Then you realize where the money is well spent and that the RED is ready for heavy expensive production, just like the Canon 1dx.

That doesn't mean mirror-less doesn't have a place or isn't getting better, because it is and for some things it's perfect, but in my view no evf dslr style camera is as robust as the large traditional workhorse dslrs.

Also we should keep in mind that Sony in regards to standard dslrs, has never caught up to Canon and Nikon so the 7 series is a place they almost had to go to gain traction in the market, but I'm not sure that a 2.5 fps camera with limited continuous focus is really ready for heavy lifting.  

IMO  

BC
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geesbert
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« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2013, 10:01:17 AM »
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that very much depends on your subjects. Any slow paced or even still life neither needs high fps nor AF

I think the one thing which could make or break those sonys for professionla use is thier ability to tether.
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NancyP
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« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2013, 07:07:01 PM »
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Currently I am in the "learn more and shoot more" mode, so Canon's lack of a roadmap doesn't bug me. However, I am not a pro with highly demanding clients, I am just an amateur who is happy with up to 13" x 19" prints. 18 MP can do that fine. All that said, when the 7D2 comes out, I will be standing there with my nose pressed to the window, just like everyone else in the sports/wildlife photography mode, at least the ones who don't want to spend for the 1DX.
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Ray
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« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2013, 08:02:52 AM »
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Well I'm definitely not happy with just 13"x19" prints. I aspire to 13ft x 19ft prints. I'd like an 80mp Phase One with the flexibility, weight, price, DR and high-ISO performance of a basic Nikon D800.

I still hang on to my Canon lenses in the hope that Canon will eventually produce a high res, high DR, body which will effectively upgrade my Canon lenses, image resolution always being a product of both lens resolution and sensor resolution.
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Justinr
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« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2013, 12:50:13 PM »
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Well I'm definitely not happy with just 13"x19" prints. I aspire to 13ft x 19ft prints. I'd like an 80mp Phase One with the flexibility, weight, price, DR and high-ISO performance of a basic Nikon D800.

I still hang on to my Canon lenses in the hope that Canon will eventually produce a high res, high DR, body which will effectively upgrade my Canon lenses, image resolution always being a product of both lens resolution and sensor resolution.


There is always the regression to film to be considered. Apropos the Nikon lens thread, I was looking at an image from my Mamiya in a magazine today and comparing it with an image taken on God knows what, probably a mobile or compact, on the opposite page and the 'proper' camera really did offer so much more in the way of image quality. Then I sought out some of my old MF trannies and wow!! I'd forgotten just how good film could be.

Edit.  I've just tried capturing some that brilliance with the scanner, and well, I guess film does have its drawbacks.  Wink
« Last Edit: October 26, 2013, 01:23:36 PM by Justinr » Logged

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