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Author Topic: PDN PhotoPlus 2013 Expo Coverage (Updated with Article)  (Read 12230 times)
Brian Hirschfeld
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« on: October 21, 2013, 10:28:49 PM »
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Hey guys, Obviously, I will be attending the PDN PhotoPlus 2013 and would like to cover anything and everything that anyone might be interested in from the show.

If you won't be able to make the show then please let me know via a comment (preferably on my website) what it is you would like me to see and if there is something to specifically test on it.

Some of my expectations and a placeholder article can be found here: http://brianhirschfeldphotography.com/2013/10/21/looking-forward-to-pdn-photoplus-expo-2013/

Best,
BH
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 01:53:58 AM by Brian Hirschfeld » Logged

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Paul Ozzello
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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2013, 12:20:56 AM »
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As much info as possible on the D800  Grin
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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2013, 12:23:11 AM »
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Cute  Wink
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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2013, 01:54:28 AM »
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Finished my humble article on PDN this year, not the most exciting year ever, but still managed to find some cool gear to talk about, enjoy

http://brianhirschfeldphotography.com/2013/10/27/pdn-photoplus-expo-2013-report/
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gerald.d
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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2013, 07:41:43 AM »
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Nice write up Brian - thanks!

Kind regards,

Gerald.
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Gigi
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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2013, 09:19:06 AM »
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+1
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Geoff
BJL
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« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2013, 02:39:18 PM »
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Thanks for the report Brian.

On the new CFast card format, what I have read is that:
1) Canon and Phase One have said they will use it, but not in any stills cameras yet.
2) Nikon and Sony have adopted a rival successor to Compact Flash, QXD, which is a bit smaller than CFast or CF, and it is in the Nikon D4.
3) Both can be far faster than CF can ever get due to CF being tied to the old parallel ATA, whereas CFast uses SATA and QXD uses PCI express.
3) Sandisk is only offering CFast, while Sony and Lexar are offering QXD.

Yes, another format war!
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Brian Hirschfeld
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« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2013, 02:42:30 PM »
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@BJL thanks for the thoughts, interesting to know. Since its Sandisk, I suspect they will win. Not really sure Sony has won a format war lately....While at first I found the XQD in my Nikon D4 annoying (and it is since it requires a different reader) its actually nice functioning and well sized. That said I would've preferred two CF's but we know why that couldn't happen...
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AreBee
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« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2013, 03:13:43 PM »
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Brian,

Quote
Not really sure Sony has won a format war lately...

Blu-Ray.
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BJL
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« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2013, 04:03:40 PM »
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Since its Sandisk, I suspect they will win. Not really sure Sony has won a format war lately....While at first I found the XQD in my Nikon D4 annoying (and it is since it requires a different reader) its actually nice functioning and well sized.
AreBee mentioned Sony's Blue-Ray win, though that is a bit Pyrrhic with its somewhat mediocre adoption rate, and any winner between QXD and CFast might be similar, with SD being preferred for the vast majority of former CF use cases as "smaller, cheaper, and good enough". Do note that CFast also needs a new reader.

My gut feeling is that QXD will do better, because PCIe has a brighter future than SATA (I believe that PCIe is baked into most CPUs, and of course is part of Thunderbolt), and the smaller size of QXD cards will make them a better fit for small cameras that produce high quality, high bit rate video.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2013, 04:05:47 PM by BJL » Logged
eronald
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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2013, 04:10:16 PM »
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AreBee mentioned Sony's Blue-Ray win, though that is a bit Pyrrhic with its somewhat mediocre adoption rate, and any winner between QXD and CFast might be similar, with SD being preferred for the vast majority of former CF use cases as "smaller, cheaper, and good enough". Do note that CFast also needs a new reader.

My gut feeling is that QXD will do better, because PCIe has a brighter future than SATA (I believe that PCIe is baked into most CPUs, and of course is part of Thunderbolt), and the smaller size of QXD cards will make them a better fit for small cameras that produce high quality, high bit rate video.

Sony is crazy about trying to establish proprietary formats
When I was in Japan I kept seeing them - their memory sticks, the digital minidisks, miniDV, microDV etc.

Edmund
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BJL
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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2013, 04:21:15 PM »
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Sony is crazy about trying to establish proprietary formats
When I was in Japan I kept seeing them - their memory sticks, the digital minidisks, miniDV, microDV etc.

Edmund
But QXD is not proprietary, is is supported by the Compact Flash association along-side CFast, and adopted by several other companies as I mentioned above.

Sony did alright with development of the CD format (jointly with Phillips), and both that and Blue Ray might be better analogies than memory stick, which IIRC was always a Sony exclusive.

At least no one has yet pulled out the old chestnut that "the failure of Betamax predicts the failure of any subsequent format proposed by Sony".
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eronald
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« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2013, 06:52:14 AM »
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They did well out of CD, and they keep trying.
How many cameras apart from the D4 support XQD? Why is the physical XQD format different from CF?

Edmund

But QXD is not proprietary, is is supported by the Compact Flash association along-side CFast, and adopted by several other companies as I mentioned above.

Sony did alright with development of the CD format (jointly with Phillips), and both that and Blue Ray might be better analogies than memory stick, which IIRC was always a Sony exclusive.

At least no one has yet pulled out the old chestnut that "the failure of Betamax predicts the failure of any subsequent format proposed by Sony".
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2013, 07:43:01 AM »
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Hi,

XQD has PCI-X interface while CF has ATA. Why should the physical format be similar when interface is different?

Broken CF contacts seem to be one of the most common problems with DSLR, by the way.

The computer industry is moving away from parallell data interfaces to serial interfaces.

"XQD version 2.0 has been announced in June 2012, featuring support for PCI Express 3.0 with transfer rates up to 8 Gbit/s (1000 Mbyte/s)", according to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XQD_card.

I would suggest that a new standard is needed but XQD may not be the solution. 

Best regards
Erik



They did well out of CD, and they keep trying.
How many cameras apart from the D4 support XQD? Why is the physical XQD format different from CF?

Edmund

« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 08:02:24 AM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

eronald
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« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2013, 07:58:16 AM »
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Hi,

XQD has PCI-X interface while CF has ATA. Why should the physical format be similar when interface is different?

Broken CF contacts seem to be one of the most common problems with DSLR, by the way.

Best regards
Erik


Why? So that you have functional redundancy precisely by having 2 slots - doesn't mean the "XQD" would be using teh same pins or even going in all the way.

A very good way to wreck your CF slot in the D4 is to insert the XQD card into it; this can easily happen if you are in the dark at an event.

Usually connectors are designed precisely to avoid accidents caused by muscle memory.

Edmund

PS - I AGREE WITH MICHAEL
Cameras as we know them are in for a dinosaur extinction event.

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 28, 2013, 12:04:00 PM by eronald » Logged
Paul Ozzello
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« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2013, 04:25:13 PM »
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Of course, all sorts of people are (and should be) excited about this camera because it means that they will be able to use all sorts of new (old) lenses on the D800′s 36mp sensor which is housed in the Sony A7r’s petit body

http://brianhirschfeldphotography.com/2013/10/27/pdn-photoplus-expo-2013-report/

I spoke with several people about the sensor in the a7r and it is not the same as the one used in the D800. It is a gapless design with microlenses that should significantly improve the performance with wide angle lenses. I spoke to one photographer in particular who had used it with an Elmarit-M 24mm and despite some slight magenta casts on the very edge of the frame there was no loss of sharpness or 'smearing' into the corners. We won't know for sure until DxO runs some tests but Sony is claiming a full stop more dynamic range than the D800...

Considering the infinite selection of lenses you can mount and being able to focus peak with older manual lenses makes this a VERY interesting and exciting camera.
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2013, 04:37:49 PM »
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Hi,

I may think DR is overrated, I have found very little problems with DR and had to go to extremes to find the DR advantage with my Sony Alpha 99 over my Sony Alpha 900. The difference is there, but finding it is very hard.

Regarding wide angle lenses, I would say that with retrofocus designs it is no problems, but I think it would not work with 'Biogon' type designs. Almost all modern wide angle are retrofocus or telecentric.

I would see it this way, theA7/A7r is a modern camera designed for modern lenses that may work with some old designs as long chief ray angle is not to large.

What I say is, that the A7/A7r are probably OK on their own, but if you use them on lenses they were not intended for, you mileage may vary.

Best regards
Erik


I spoke with several people about the sensor in the a7r and it is not the same as the one used in the D800. It is a gapless design with microlenses that should significantly improve the performance with wide angle lenses. I spoke to one photographer in particular who had used it with an Elmarit-M 24mm and despite some slight magenta casts on the very edge of the frame there was no loss of sharpness or 'smearing' into the corners. We won't know for sure until DxO runs some tests but Sony is claiming a full stop more dynamic range than the D800...

Considering the infinite selection of lenses you can mount and being able to focus peak with older manual lenses makes this a VERY interesting and exciting camera.

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Paul Ozzello
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« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2013, 06:23:05 PM »
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Hi,

I may think DR is overrated, I have found very little problems with DR and had to go to extremes to find the DR advantage with my Sony Alpha 99 over my Sony Alpha 900. The difference is there, but finding it is very hard.

Regarding wide angle lenses, I would say that with retrofocus designs it is no problems, but I think it would not work with 'Biogon' type designs. Almost all modern wide angle are retrofocus or telecentric.

I would see it this way, theA7/A7r is a modern camera designed for modern lenses that may work with some old designs as long chief ray angle is not to large.

What I say is, that the A7/A7r are probably OK on their own, but if you use them on lenses they were not intended for, you mileage may vary.

Best regards
Erik



Overrated ? Dynamic range is one of the D800's hallmarks and the Sony is supposed to improve on that (though I doubt it will be by a full stop). Considering the only alternative for shooting wide angle retrofocus leica lenses is with a 13.3 Evs $7000 Leica 240, the a7r is a pretty big deal. Stitching 36MP images from Canon TS lenses, holding the camera vertically and doing full resolution 70MP+ panorama sweeps with leica glass... Probably ok ? You've shot one dollar bill too many Wink

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JV
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« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2013, 06:31:22 PM »
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Something of interest perhaps with regards to the use of Sony sensors by other companies.  The source is Fuji Rumors:

"You may already know that Sony produces the APS-C sensors for the Fuji cameras (and other brands). I’ve dropped an email to Andrea from sonyalpharumors and he told me some interesting things. Here is how it goes: once Sony implemented a new sensor in one of their cameras, other companies have to wait at least 6 months before they have the permission to use it in their own cameras. This means that if Fuji wants to use the brand new FF sensor of the the A7r  or A7 they’d have to wait at least until mid April (maybe right in time for my birthday  ). On the other hand they could already use the “older” FF sensor of the RX1 and launch an X200 earlier. But it seems that Fuji decided to wait and launch the FF Fuji by the end of 2014, ealry 2015."

Reading this I would be very surprised if the D800 and the A7r share the same sensor.
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jduncan
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2013, 07:37:27 PM »
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Thanks for the report Brian.

On the new CFast card format, what I have read is that:
1) Canon and Phase One have said they will use it, but not in any stills cameras yet.
2) Nikon and Sony have adopted a rival successor to Compact Flash, QXD, which is a bit smaller than CFast or CF, and it is in the Nikon D4.
3) Both can be far faster than CF can ever get due to CF being tied to the old parallel ATA, whereas CFast uses SATA and QXD uses PCI express.
3) Sandisk is only offering CFast, while Sony and Lexar are offering QXD.

Yes, another format war!

Hasselblad was showcase on Sandisk's CFast videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIgUpif2vtQ

But now since they are linked to Sony we need to wait and see.

Best regards,
J. Duncan
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