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Author Topic: A frustrated newbie, about to give up.  (Read 3611 times)
Redcrown
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« on: November 03, 2013, 01:45:23 AM »
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Apologies in advance for being a C1 newbie. As a long time Adobe Camera Raw user, I loaded the trial of C1 and have spent several hours testing. I've also watched many of the video tuts, browsed the manual, and Googled issues extensively.

So far I have a farily negative experience, but thought I'd post here for a sanity check. Two "problems" came up immediately. I'm processing raw files from Canon 1dS, 5D2, and 5D3.

It appears C1 can't handle DNG files? It loads them, allows processing, but generates wierd and useless results. It does not access the Canon camera model in the DNG exif. Defaults to some neutral profile. If I manually select the proper Canon profile, the results are strange, highly over saturated colors. Significantly different than the results from the identical CR2 file.

I found some vague references to that problem in various forums via Google. Is that correct? Can C1 not be used effectively on my library of thousands of DNG raw files?

I shot some virgin images of a Macbeth Colorchecker (to get some fresh CR2 files). I shot my first batch under tungsten lamps(2700k). When I load them, the single, generic Canon profile gets applied, but the colors are way off. The red patch is orange, the yellow is very pale, the blue is mostly purple.

That led to the discovery that the C1 generic profiles are "fine tuned" for flash/daylight(around 5000k). So I shot the Colorchecker again under flash. Those 5000K flash images looked much better in C1. Very close to ACR. It appears that the single generic profile supplied with C1 is like an ACR or Xrite "single illuminant" profile, and the further you get from the 5000K sweet spot, the worse it gets.

So I went back to Google, figuring somebody has solved this problem. Maybe someone selling profiles for a range of temps? Maybe there is a profile generator for C1's ICC profiles, something like Adobe's DNG PE or Xrite. I could not find much. Only a few references from 2009 or earlier.

So what am I missing? C1 appears to have a good number of loyal and satisfied users. What do they use for camera profiles? How do they process shots outside of the 5000K range?
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byarvin
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« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2013, 08:37:53 AM »
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Hi, while we're waiting for the C1 gurus, can you tell us how C1 works for you with Canon raw files? That is, how it works without converting to DNG first?



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Redcrown
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« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2013, 01:57:16 PM »
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Byarvin,

For what it's worth, C1 seems to do a reasonable job on my Canon 5d2&5D3 raw CR2 files. But only IF they are in the 4500K to 6000K color temp range. Outside that range, the C1 conversions fall apart pretty fast, generating colors that are way off from what other converters provide (and what I believe to bo correct). That's with the single generic profile C1 offers.

Thus my question here (and in some other places) on how to properly profile. The question has gone un-answered, which baffels me. So, for the most part I've given up. I'm not very interested in testing and evaluating the product if I can't get past the profile problem. The inability of C1 to correctly process DNG files is also a bit of a show stopper.

What little testing I've done on 4500-6000K CR2 images did not show C1 having any significant advantage over Adobe Camera Raw and 3rd party plugins - in terms of noise reduction, sharpening, highlight and shadow recovery, detail enhancement, etc.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2013, 04:04:07 PM »
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Correct. C1 supports the native raw files of your camera, not the Adobe DNG repackaging of those files.

I know I know, Adobe implied in their marketing that DNG solved archiving/future-proofing issues - in fact it often does the opposite. Damn marketing Sad.

The workflow advantages over something like Bridge+ACR are huge. But it does take some learning (on your own or through Capture One Training) for them to become manifest.

Likewise initial evaluations of the power of the C1 processing engine are often hindered by first-time-user things like poor defaults for default noise reduction which understate the better detail rendition C1 provides. Or consumer monitors which don't show the subtle colors C1 is showing in quarter-tone transitions. Etc. Capture One's processing is the best of any of the major processing engines in my experience  but obviously I'm very biased.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 04:10:24 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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byarvin
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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2013, 09:18:11 AM »
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Red, I have even more questions. I'd like to know what sort of computer you're using. Your problem with color balance sounds a bit (although not exactly) like one I had.

...and BTW...I'm a new Capture 1 user who's frustrated by technical issues and overwhelmed by the excellence of the results.

(Sorry to bypass you Doug, I respect your knowledge and experience, I just have more questions for the original poster.)
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Redcrown
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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2013, 09:55:38 AM »
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byarvin, I'm using a farily standard PC. I5 processor, 8gb memory, Windows 7 64bit.

However, the type of computer should not affect the image quality results of C1. The same settings on the same image will produce identical results on different computers. One may be faster than another, but that's the only difference.

Difference monitors and profiles will, of course, display the same image differently. But I look at the numbers in addition to the visual display. RGB, HSB, LAB values tell the real story.
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byarvin
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« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2013, 10:50:32 AM »
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Red, if this were a casual conversation, I'd agree with everything you say. My experience with Capture 1 is different though; there are functions that just don't work in one version or another with different types of hardware. When I couldn't get proper color balances with 7.1.3, I opened a support ticket and their answer was that I needed a different CPU. Instead, at the advice of somebody else on a board like this one, I downgraded to 7.1.2 and got very increased functionality. I'm at 7.1.5 now and it's almost there. (although there are whole sections of the program that I haven't even tried yet)

The difference for me though was that from the very first try, I was getting far better results than with any other raw converter I'd tried and this made me want to stick with it.

BTW...may I gently suggest that you don't archive in *.dng? The format means well, but doesn't quite work in practice.

Brian
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SecondFocus
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« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2013, 11:07:04 PM »
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I was always inclined to think that DNG was a solution looking for a problem.

Aside from that I have found that the v7 version of Capture One by far produces the best RAW conversions of Canon files. The photographs from my 5DMkIII bodies are just superb. Much better than the Adobe conversions and Canon DPP. Going back and working with older shoots, I can say the same with my files from a 1DMkII, 1DMkIII and 5D. I wish I could re-do all my shoots in C1 v7.
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Ian L. Sitren
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« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2013, 08:56:26 AM »
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...Likewise initial evaluations of the power of the C1 processing engine are often hindered by first-time-user things like poor defaults for default noise reduction which understate the better detail rendition C1 provides. Or consumer monitors which don't show the subtle colors C1 is showing in quarter-tone transitions. ...
Doug what default NR settings do you recommend, and how does one change the defaults?
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2013, 11:01:03 AM »
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The topic of noise reduction, detail extraction, sharpening, clarity, and structure can easily run up to an hour during out Capture One Masters Class, so you'll forgive me for not trying to replicate all such information here. It depends enormously on the intended output of the image, how much additional work will be done outside of C1 (i.e. retouching, compositing, or visual FX), your personal aesthetic (how much tolerance/love do you have for grain?) and what camera you use in what kinds of situations (especially different for unusual temperature lighting, or for long-ish exposures).

But the later question is simple. There is a dropdown above and to the right of many tools in the shape of a down-facing triangle.

For sharpening, noise reduction, and clarity you can use this tool to "save as defaults for" a particular back/camera.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2013, 11:05:34 AM by Doug Peterson » Logged

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Nill Toulme
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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2013, 11:17:22 AM »
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Thanks Doug.
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The View
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« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2013, 03:15:11 PM »
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Correct. C1 supports the native raw files of your camera, not the Adobe DNG repackaging of those files.

I know I know, Adobe implied in their marketing that DNG solved archiving/future-proofing issues - in fact it often does the opposite. Damn marketing Sad.

The workflow advantages over something like Bridge+ACR are huge. But it does take some learning (on your own or through Capture One Training) for them to become manifest.

Likewise initial evaluations of the power of the C1 processing engine are often hindered by first-time-user things like poor defaults for default noise reduction which understate the better detail rendition C1 provides. Or consumer monitors which don't show the subtle colors C1 is showing in quarter-tone transitions. Etc. Capture One's processing is the best of any of the major processing engines in my experience  but obviously I'm very biased.

That's weird. I have some DNG files from an older camera, and CO Pro could process it.

Sometimes I think each of us has a different copy of the software, with different flaws.
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2013, 10:19:52 AM »
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Likely the older camera you're referring to shot to DNG as it's native unconverted raw format. In such cases DNG is non problematic as support for the camera inherently implies support for a DNG from that camera.
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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Paul2660
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« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2013, 11:51:43 AM »
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Doug:

Any chance the COMP class will be offered in Dallas in 2014.

Paul

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Paul Caldwell
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2013, 01:29:29 PM »
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We are always open to the possibility. We limit COMP to 8 students per class to encourage interaction/dialogue/back-and-forth so all we need is a handful of people in a given area. If you knew even 1 or 2 more people in your area we could probably commit to a date/location under the assumption we could fill the remaining spots in time.
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DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
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