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bcooter
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« on: November 05, 2013, 09:35:48 AM »
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http://www.broadcastnewsroom.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=2900194
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EgillBjarki
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« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2013, 04:11:50 AM »
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That will take some time to load! I am guessing they are checking how many people are interested, if they should go for it, or wait for later.
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bcooter
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« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2013, 09:54:55 AM »
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That will take some time to load! I am guessing they are checking how many people are interested, if they should go for it, or wait for later.

I don't think it matters.  The can push 800 kbs across the web and call it 4k and people will be happy that it's 4k.

4k is not better than great bit depth 2k, at least nothing that anyone outside of an effects house will notice, but it will be the catch phrase because manufacturers have got to sell tv's and screens.

It's not about the front end who makes this stuff, it's the back end viewers that buy this stuff.   That's where the money is.

IMO

BC
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2013, 06:16:09 AM »
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Well, I think we could create a Label.

Because all that stuff (the economy) is based on growing, growing and growing, at any price. In other words it's more more and more. And even if you do not need more, you will want more.
Thus, the pixels do not escape to the law. More and more and more Ks

As we hear now about sustainable economy idea, we could apply the same concept to video: "sustainable video" and design a label.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2013, 11:30:19 PM »
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Well, I think we could create a Label.

Because all that stuff (the economy) is based on growing, growing and growing, at any price. In other words it's more more and more. And even if you do not need more, you will want more.
Thus, the pixels do not escape to the law. More and more and more Ks

As we hear now about sustainable economy idea, we could apply the same concept to video: "sustainable video" and design a label.

Sustainable video - the society for preservation of motion pixel quality?  Wink

But yes, it doesn't take a very powerful crystal ball to see that this is pretty much going nowhere. At this point in time, it seems pretty obvious that content providers have a brighter future than devices providers.

Who is going to need a PS5/8K TV/electric car able to reach 100 kph in 2 sec/80mp camera/...? Not only that, who is going to want them when the value of the previous iteration will already have been very limited relative to the one before? The very idea of having to get rid of existing stuff is enough to prevent me from buying new things. And yes, I gather than someone somewhere read this and saw it as a business opportunity. That business will go to delivery companies the day they emerge of their lethargy. Grin

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: November 13, 2013, 11:36:40 PM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

A few images online here!
fredjeang2
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« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2013, 04:58:43 AM »
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Agree.

I'm done with this, in general, that it's less and
Less about quality made to last but about
Very short-life Concepts made for bying axiety.
It goes nowhere except in the pocket of the big companies.
Aaton hasn't survived the tsunami and it's sad to
See craft companies doin great stuff sinking in the
Sea of marketing era.

I was stoned to see the new Porshe electric car that
Looks like a Hyundai family wheels...and it makes me
Wonder who are the new Porshe clients? Maybe they
Want to promote natality in the upper classes. And even
Ferrari has sunk in the delirium with a 4x4 Ferrari. It tells
Where the gravity center of the real money is: it will
Pleased the emirs in some arabian desert to drive their
Ferraris in the dunes at 200 with all the family on the back seats.

Look how horrible and nouveau riche is the watch market.
There is nothing more vulgar than a big watch. The watches
Produced now are as big as the pilot watches used in
WW2 that were made to be worn on the jackets, not
Directly on the skin, and that's why they were oversized,
It was profesional use in a military environement. But
Now they are big because big looks "more"...more "rich"
More vulgar, more absurd and more stupid.

I keep my vintage Navitimer and Vostok Amphibians...
I recently adquired another Amphibian that is at least
40 years old and checked the accuray with an atomic clock
And those mechanisms are simply amazing. After almost
1/2 century, it keeps time with impressive accuray with
No need of contaminating batteries. And it's really elegant
To wear, just the right size so you don't pose. Discreet,
Beautiful.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 05:13:13 AM by fredjeang2 » Logged
fredjeang2
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« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2013, 04:20:25 PM »
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More seriously,

I'm not against evolution and the 4K mystic.

But it appears to me a complete mascarade when we still can't have well priced gear that can shoot a robust Prores or DNx in HD, apart from Arri and Arri ain't cheap.

First they should clear the HD land and bring on the table a straightforward workflow with really high quality HD before those grandiose 4K ideas.
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bcooter
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« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2013, 08:46:00 PM »
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More seriously,

I'm not against evolution and the 4K mystic.

But it appears to me a complete mascarade when we still can't have well priced gear that can shoot a robust Prores or DNx in HD, apart from Arri and Arri ain't cheap.

First they should clear the HD land and bring on the table a straightforward workflow with really high quality HD before those grandiose 4K ideas.

And so far most of Arri is 2k output, so  . . .

I like shooting 4k (or with the Reds I should say almost 4k) when it's the right situation and the ability to come into a file and little for a slow zoom, or side movement can really refine an edit and story.

My problem is I'm working in a 2k NLE and I'm going to have to switch.  I'm not going Avid, too much keyboard, though I own both FCPX and Premier, I can't decide and my schedule doesn't allow me any downtime right now, but if I don't make the switch I'm going to get caught out.

Still, I really wonder how much 4k delivery we're going to see, at least in high bitrate, because I have clients that choke down on 720.  We'll see, but regardless of what we want it's going to come.

IMO

BC
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2013, 03:22:12 AM »
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And so far most of Arri is 2k output, so  . . .

I like shooting 4k (or with the Reds I should say almost 4k) when it's the right situation and the ability to come into a file and little for a slow zoom, or side movement can really refine an edit and story.

My problem is I'm working in a 2k NLE and I'm going to have to switch.  I'm not going Avid, too much keyboard, though I own both FCPX and Premier, I can't decide and my schedule doesn't allow me any downtime right now, but if I don't make the switch I'm going to get caught out.

Still, I really wonder how much 4k delivery we're going to see, at least in high bitrate, because I have clients that choke down on 720.  We'll see, but regardless of what we want it's going to come.

IMO

BC

Avid is still HD so a conform is needed to Resolve
To output 4k. (see PS2 below)

Give a try to Edius. I'm super serious. Those Grass Valley guys know
A thing or 2 when it comes to hasdle-free, straightforwardness.
Many major broadcast are using it currently.
It takes everything, built like Nuke in the sense that it
Uses no mem and can build proxies while working with
The raws so you can use it on virtualy any laptop.
It's a great NLE, vastly underestimated in the US but
Not in Europe and Japan.
The only thing that is missing is that it lacks an automatized
Tracker in the compo tools. It's manual, but the color tools
Are top.
As I do not work for me, the choice of Avid is strategical,
But if I had to work mainly for me, I'd through away all those
Avid And PP on the garbage and stay with Edius.
It's a 4k and more NLE (like in Nuke, you just could work
8k if you wish).
Give it a try, you won't be disapointed and it's dead intuitive.

On the 4k. What about broadbloodycast? Teevees have adopted
Hd not a long time ago but look at the quality we receive
The signals...it's extremely low.
In the end, if the major broadcast would be able to send
A higher quality hd signal on a 4k tv, it would probably
Look better than a low 4k; because they
Are not yet able to transport a high bitrate
Signal and although it's HD, it reaches our homes
Very degradated. So again we're in the same
Saga: a standart that seems obsolete before
It reached maturity...

On the advert side, where the real money is? On the
Web. Theaters are still 2k in the vast majority and also
They cutted drasticaly the costs of DCPs. In fact they now
Gift it. A 3 min campaign is about 500/600 euros per week
Per theater included the DCP. So all we have to deliver
Is an image sequence in the specs they want + surround audio.
Period. (well and a copy in QT lowres and the musical rights payed)
If they go 4k, I'm not sure this situation would stay as
Commercialy interesting.



Ps: Coot, about Avid and the keyboard dependence: I
Don 't know if you tried by yourself or if you took advice
From old editors foxes but this fact was true until the latest
Versions of MC. Now it's not anymore keyboard orientated.
You can use it the old way or the new way like FCP, PP or Edius.
I never use the keyboard on Avid because I learned it
Late. But most older editor would have the experience
Of keyboard orientated. Keyboard is not an issue any more
In Avid. The real issue is that it's complex and there is
A lot to remember.
Then, according to trustable Avid source, it's going to go
4k soon. But what "soon" means?...

In fact, the level of personalization of Avid is amazing
And you can virtualy shape the NLE and it's behaviour
According to your style and needs, switch to one config
To another, and that's also truth for the bins. I would
Say that what really makes Avid different from others
NLE is it's power when it comes to asset management
And interface flexibility. In those fields, no other NLE
Comes even close. The price to pay: not intuitive and
Requires more hours to master it.

PS2: About cropping 4K material or pan-zoom, you can do that
now in Avid (on former versions it was not posible). But it is still
an HD editor in the sense that if you can manipulate 4K, crop, zoom,
pan...you still can not output 4k from the NLE and need another App
like Resolve to acheive it.

« Last Edit: November 15, 2013, 05:10:51 AM by fredjeang2 » Logged
jjj
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« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2013, 04:55:45 AM »
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On the 4k. What about broadbloodycast? Teevees have adopted
Hd not a long time ago but look at the quality we receive
The signals...it's extremely low.
Heck, getting decent SD isn't even possible yet. Smooth continuous tones, rain, mist, quick dissolves can all turn to nasty squares blocks as they've been compressed to hell. Not a pitch on old analogue transmissions. And we have fibre optic cable so there should be no excuses.
I still haven't got a flat screen TV yet as I've yet to find one that produces a picture that looks as good as my 'antique' CRT [or my computer monitor for that matter]. I don't mind the image isn't 50" as that will only means seeing the problems more easily. I've spent of lot of time testing and playing with flat screens and they still make things look too video like and badly lit for me. Besides if I want to see something on a big screen, I go see it on a really big screen - I have an unlimited card for my local cinema.  Grin
I have seen some decent results from some digital projectors though and when we've finished house renovation that may be the way to go - now that they are quiet enough.
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bcooter
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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2013, 07:31:11 AM »
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I'll probably go with the flow and stick with the Apple ecosystem.   I have someone that will tutor us in fcp X,  or another in Premier.   I don't like either, but can't go to Edius because so few editors work in it.

I am far from an Apple fan boy and my displeasure with Apple abandoning fcp 7 is beyond anything I can write in public, but things are what they are.

What I'd love to see in a NLE is not only speed, but real color and effect tools in the editor rather than constantly round tripping.  It just takes too long and honestly you're always slightly adjusting before final in the editor anyway.

I really think black magic is attempting to make DiVinci a NLE and color grading suite all in one, though when they get there is probably a few generations away and that's the problem today, everybody is a few generations away from where they need to be.

In regards to 4k it doesn't matter what anybody wants, it will come, though how much will be distributed in 4k is kind of a guess.

I think we'd all like to see better file quality and depth than just pixel count. 

The REDs I use have a lot of latitude until you crush it down, but they still don't have that look that you get out of a still camera.  Even the little olympus omd with a tiny 43 sensor shoots a look with stills that motion cameras don't and I kind of don't understand that, because the specs don't look like that results.

Color and tone in motion seems global and once again I can't really explain it, though i see it in stills to motion footage from the same session and the stills always have a deeper, richer more specfic color and unique look.  Maybe it's the faster shutter that helps, I just don't know, but I do see a difference.

One thing I truly don't get is why in Lightroom 4.4 you can drop a 4k red raw into the program and view it smoothly at what looks like rich, full debayer, though you can't adjust a thing.

That's crazy.

Second thing that drives me crazy is the RED 1's shoot a few variations of prorezz (which takes a RED plug in for quicktime to view).  I all my testing the prorezz versions look a lot better and sharper than encoding out of cinex, but you can't really batch or do much with the RED prorezz.  Something is strange here I don't understand and since I have a brutal schedule, really don't have the time to investigate it for a week.

IMO

BC
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2013, 04:22:23 AM »
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I'd love too to a complete software
That would free us for roundtrippin.
But on today's panorama there are
Only 2 real all-in-one options:
Avid DS, outdated and in end of its life
And Smoke, complex and unintuituve.
Here, Smoke is used quite a lot in the
High-end but in a way, its days are numbered
Too.
Now the new Avid politics is that they are workin
With Resolve in order to counterbalance Adobe.
They abandoned DS to a modular system in wich
MC would be the edit and compo app, and Resolve
Would cover the missing parts. As both are standarts
It's quite "clever". What they will do is that if there is
A roundtrippin, it is and will be smoother as more
Integrated (in the spirit as Adobe D.L)
Personaly, I don't like the decision.
It's 2 softwares, very different interface, twice the things
To remember etc etc....
DS would have been the holy grail but...

Being in Coot's situation, I'd probably go FCPx, but if you
Are already ok with Da-vinci, then the choice of Avid
Seems to me the safer. Because Resolve becomes the
"almost" integrated color and conform app. So at least
As you know it already, you won't have to learn it from
Scratch but just MC. And sorry for the FCPx fanboys, but
MC stands in another league as for pro use.
It's not a personal apreciation but a fact.

Now PP...the editor is painfull and the only good reason
And powerfull reason is AE, virtualy unlimited when it comes
To compositing. But there are 2 main hassles. One is that
AE is needed for a yes or a no, and then, there is a serious
Learning curve, same as learning Nuke.
While Avid MC covers within the editor most of the compositing
Tasks we would ever need to acheive (unless we are
Doin the Marvel's special effects), in PP you need to
Go AE even for simple compo task.
PP without AE is like a nice girl without high-heels really.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2013, 04:33:26 AM by fredjeang2 » Logged
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« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2013, 03:59:58 PM »
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What I'd love to see in a NLE is not only speed, but real color and effect tools in the editor rather than constantly round tripping.  It just takes too long and honestly you're always slightly adjusting before final in the editor anyway.

(snip)
I think we'd all like to see better file quality and depth than just pixel count. 

The REDs I use have a lot of latitude until you crush it down, but they still don't have that look that you get out of a still camera.  Even the little olympus omd with a tiny 43 sensor shoots a look with stills that motion cameras don't and I kind of don't understand that, because the specs don't look like that results.

Color and tone in motion seems global and once again I can't really explain it, though i see it in stills to motion footage from the same session and the stills always have a deeper, richer more specfic color and unique look.  Maybe it's the faster shutter that helps, I just don't know, but I do see a difference.


Totally with you on this. FCP-X has some OK colour correction when you get your head around it (the secondaries in the colour board are actually quite good, but no curves- what on earth is up with that?)

But I also REALLY struggle to get the results out of RED Cine/FCP-X/Resolve that I can get from an exported TIFF frame brought into Aperture. And I don't really understand why. I've taken to doing my first grades on grabbed stills. It takes me seconds to get to where I want to go. Then I spend time in the colour grading trying to get as close as possible to that stills grade as I can.

Even then, the graded frame from the RED is rarely as zingy as a frame from Phocus and Aperture taken on the Hasselblad. I can get it up to what I can get from my 7D, reasonably well, but never quite get the clarity and purity of tone that the Hasselblad "special sauce" delivers in the RAW processing step.

Don't get me wrong. It is a HUNDRED times better than any baked-in video file I've ever worked in. Maybe it is just because I'm a stills guy, and I like my videos to look like my stills. And my stills are lit with powerful flash, whereas my motion stuff is lit with much, much dimmer continuous lighting sources.

But I think the stills tradition of colour correction is a country mile ahead of the clunky ways video guys seem to like to do it. Sure, I can probably dial it in with a dozen different secondaries on each shot... but who has the time to do that when you're producing 2 shorts a week? And why is it that I never need to do anything more to my stills that colour-temp, tint, contrast, tone curve, add vignette, slightly mod RGB curves if I'm after a particularly stylised look?

There are certainly things from Resolve I'd like to have access to in Aperture. (E.g. ranged control over things like saturation so I can apply a bold blue shadowed look but tone it down so it fades to a cool black, instead of a cross-processed blue). But the stills workflow seems to get the colour 90% of the way there with less than 10% of the effort.

  Cheers, Hywel.

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bcooter
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« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2013, 10:22:10 PM »
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snip
Even then, the graded frame from the RED is rarely as zingy as a frame from Phocus and Aperture taken on the Hasselblad. I can get it up to what I can get from my 7D, reasonably well, but never quite get the clarity and purity of tone that the Hasselblad "special sauce" delivers in the RAW processing step.
snip




I don't get it.

I can do this in photoshop in 45 minutes, including the clean up.



The video piece is ok, it moves so some things you don't see, but it's not the depth and level of the still, which was from a R1, same lighting as the video, actually shot at 125th of a second, the same as the vide.

I have an edit in production right now that I've inserted some stills.  The stills shot with a little olympus omd em-5.  LED for fill, practicals for the background.

I didn't even go to the raws, just pulled out three jpegs, toned them, did some slight layer work and vignetted them.  Took 20 minutes.  The video, had the same out of camera look, but took an nearly two hours to to hit the same color, took layers and keys and still doesn't look as deep and good as the still.

I know I'm more familiar with photoshop, but it's not that, it's something else, but when I see amazing color and depth in motion imagery, I'm always impressed because I know it takes a huge volume of work.

When I go to an outside colorist I do the same as you, pull some grabs and hit color, then make prints as go by.

They never get the same richness and depth.  Close but not the same.

IMO

BC
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« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2013, 05:47:46 AM »
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I'd been wondering if it is a colour space difference.

For me at least I'm viewing everything on 30" Apple display, and I wondered if it was to do with what colour space the viedeo apps were using compared with the colour space the TIFFs and stills are using.

I'm not really familiar enough with the subtleties of Rec. 709 vs. Prophoto RGB (which I know has a significantly larger gamut) vs how the system is going to choose to display them on an sRGB monitor. I thought FCP-X was using ColorSync in a similar way to the stills apps, it is certainly a country mile ahead of what it used to be on FCP7, but I struggle to get clean whites when you look at a video clip next to a still, for example. It's almost like the video is stuck with going to 235 instead of 255 still - I don't think it is, I think it is more subtle than that, but man, it is annoying.

Maybe it is actually getting screwed up at the output stage because Rec. 709 sucks? I ought to run some experiments with ProRes 4444 into RGB colour space when I get a chance.

Hywel.





 
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fredjeang2
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« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2013, 08:24:29 AM »
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Keep in mind that if you want to obtain the quality of Phocus etc...still imagery, and specialy in the high DR, smooth transition etc...without the circus fallin appart

you need to use image sequences within big artillery softwares like Nuke or AE. This is not anymore video but frame by frame still imagery
and that means or the use of PS, or the use of a compositing App.

In other words: your current workflow (or approach) is underpowered for your goal (raw still imagery processing). And yes: colorspace, bit deph and processing are key.

Those few links will bring some light on the matter:

http://vfxio.com/PDFs/Nuke_Color_Management_Wright.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oqCsOcabqk

For High DR without burnin disk space you could have a look at EXR built buy ILM. PS reads them perfectly with the plugin. Got it installed.
Go to ILM website: http://www.openexr.com/
The advantage is that it will give you the quality of Tiff without the weight of Tiff. Therefore usable within the motion specificities where
keepin still image sequences within reasonable storage is very important, without compromising the quality and post-prod range.

So if you can't go Nuke or AE, use Photoshop.

See for ex that if you are working in Nuke to color correct, it's built like a still software environement, very different from traditional video color apps.








Etc... just took a few screenshots from Google.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 08:49:44 AM by fredjeang2 » Logged
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