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Author Topic: Canon ipf8300 blacks not as glossy as Pixma 9000. Ideas?  (Read 1557 times)
TravisWM
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« on: November 11, 2013, 11:29:46 PM »
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Hi

I am having a problem with getting the same level of gloss out of a Canon ipf8300 as I do out of my Pixma 9000.  Basically the prints come out of the 8300 with the blacks looking a little duller than they do on the Pixma.  Both printers are printing the same file, on the same paper (Lexjet Sunset Metallic).  I have attached a couple pictures to give an example of what I am seeing.  The glossier ones are from the Pixma 9000 and the slightly less glossy ones from the ipf8300.

Looking at the ink usage report, it shows mostly photo black, but with a small amount of matte black. (.015ml matte black vs .042ml photo black and also .083ml grey vs .034ml photo grey)  I suspect that this might be what is causing my problem since the Pixma doesn't have a matte black ink.  I am not sure, however, how to get the printer to not use the matte, or if that's even possible

I have tried lots of different paper settings (including the custom profiles from Lexjet's website) and none of them seem to make a difference.  I made sure to double check that the paper settings I was using specified Photo Black in the profile and not matte.

The printer is using the latest firmware.   I have tried printing from both the standard Photoshop print dialog, and the normal export plugin.  Neither seem to make a difference.  I have tried different rendering intents (perceptual, relative colorimetric etc) which also didn't seem to make any difference in the gloss level.   I even cut some of the roll paper and fed it into the Pixma just to rule out the chance that the same brand of paper was somehow different in roll format. 

Is there any way to get the glossier prints from the 8300 or is this just how it prints?  It seems like it should be able to do at least what the Pixma does.

I would appreciate any ideas anyone has of things to try, or even wild guesses at this point.

Thanks,
Travis
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Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2013, 04:06:31 AM »
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Not familiar with the Canon Pixma 9000 range of printers but is that not a dye ink printer? You will always get better gloss with dye inks compared to pigment inks.
The matte ink usage of the iPF8300 is in this case probably caused by initialisation of the heads before the print is made, unlikely it uses a matte ink on a glossy surface. 0.015 ML is little ink. Just enough to cover two square inch with black. All the grey inks are aimed at gloss in the first place so the total of PK + grey inks is 0.5 ML versus the 0.015 ML of the MK = 100 versus 3. Make a larger print with the same settings and the MK use will probably still stay at 0.015 ML.

There is a thread on metallic papers here that answers this question as well.

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2013, 04:22:17 AM »
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You have a dye printer in the Pixma 9000 and that is the answer. Rather then type it out just Google Dye vs. Pigment and you can read up to your hearts content.
I use my dye based Epson 1430 when clients want a hi gloss print with Pictorico Hi Gloss Film and the absolutly stunning Ilford Prestige Smooth High Glosss Film.
Not much around that can touch it,closest to Cibachrome you will find. Good reading on the subject go to Fatali Cibachrome Photos.
The hold back for years has been the longevity problems associated with dye inks. Direct sun light is a killer for dyes.
 Epson uses Claria dyes which have been greatly improved over the older dye sets from Epsons old 1280.
Only problem with dyes is that no one that I know of builds a wide format dye printer(Without conversion) so if you print large and want to stay with dyes that is an issue.
I am in discussion with Jon Cones firm about converting an Epson 7900 to his CL dyes so I can do 24" prints to the Ilford gloss.

You are seeing it first hand the pigment prints on metallic paper look pretty blah to say the least when you lay them next to those beautiful dye prints.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 05:26:24 AM by Dan Berg » Logged

Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2013, 07:14:51 AM »
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Dan,

Load that 7900 with Noritsu Minilab dyes. It brings you as close as you can get to Epson Claria dyes. And if I am not mistaken one of the minilab models Fuji, Noritsu or Epson has already 5 inks. Diluting the greys with Noritsu blacks to get greys is no problem either. See Paul's comments and links in the Kodak metallic thread.

Edit: price per ml drops considerably with the minilab supplies.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=83700.0

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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 09:22:04 AM by Ernst Dinkla » Logged
Dan Berg
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« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2013, 08:01:15 AM »
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Thank you Ernst,
I am familiar with Paul Roark and have read several of his papers.
I need to followup with him as well.
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2013, 08:10:30 AM »
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Quote
Is there any way to get the glossier prints from the 8300 or is this just how it prints?  It seems like it should be able to do at least what the Pixma does.

This is a classic difference between dye inks and pigment inks that sit more on the surface. Applying an over laminate is one way to get glossier blacks, and or consider another media (like Pictorico's high gloss paper).
« Last Edit: November 12, 2013, 12:18:59 PM by Scott Martin » Logged

Simon J.A. Simpson
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« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2013, 12:11:49 PM »
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Is there any way to get the glossier prints from the 8300 or is this just how it prints?  It seems like it should be able to do at least what the Pixma does.


THis is a classic difference between dye inks and pigment inks that sit more on the surface. Applying an over laminate is one way to get glossier blacks, and or consider another media (like Pictorico's high gloss paper).

Pixma 9000 is a dye ink printer and the ipf8300 uses pigment inks.  Dye inks will give a superior gloss finish.
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Scott Martin
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« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2013, 12:19:36 PM »
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Pixma 9000 is a dye ink printer and the ipf8300 uses pigment inks.  Dye inks will give a superior gloss finish.

Thanks for repeating that again.
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Simon J.A. Simpson
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« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2013, 03:28:44 PM »
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Thanks for repeating that again.

Sorry.  Sorry.

 Grin
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enduser
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« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2013, 06:53:17 PM »
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The HP DJ 130 is still available and is an excellent 24 inch dye ink printer.
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Dan Berg
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« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2013, 05:18:38 AM »
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The HP DJ 130 is still available and is an excellent 24 inch dye ink printer.
I believe the Hp 130 is a cmyk 6 dye inkset. You cannot get neutral black and white prints. They have that horrible green cast like the 1430 and most other dye printers that mix color to print b&w.
Need an 8 dye set with the lk and llk and a good rip and no one has that. (That I know of)
Sorry no intent to hijack your thread,just wanted to respond.
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enduser
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« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2013, 01:37:07 AM »
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You're absolutely right, Dan.  I forgot how it was impossible with B & W.  You'd get this green cast and as you attempted to get rid of it it would jump straight to a magenta cast, never neutral.  Did produce some excellent color work though.
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hjulenissen
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« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2013, 02:29:04 AM »
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...I use my dye based Epson 1430 when clients want a hi gloss print with Pictorico Hi Gloss Film and the absolutly stunning Ilford Prestige Smooth High Glosss Film.
Not much around that can touch it,closest to Cibachrome you will find. Good reading on the subject go to Fatali Cibachrome Photos….
Only problem with dyes is that no one that I know of builds a wide format dye printer(Without conversion) so if you print large and want to stay with dyes that is an issue.
I am in discussion with Jon Cones firm about converting an Epson 7900 to his CL dyes so I can do 24" prints to the Ilford gloss.

You are seeing it first hand the pigment prints on metallic paper look pretty blah to say the least when you lay them next to those beautiful dye prints.
How different is the 9000 and the 9500 really? Are they really the same "chassis", one fitted with dye inks/head, the other with pigment, running different firmware/drivers to suit?

If it is really as simple as "converting" one to the other, and dye/pigment have each their strength, it is somewhat surprising that e.g. Canon does not offer a Dr Jekyl/Mr Hyde printer, if need be forcing the user to swap inks manually. I guess it would only help them sell more ink (and that is the business model, is it not?)

-h
« Last Edit: November 14, 2013, 02:35:06 AM by hjulenissen » Logged
TravisWM
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« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2013, 05:30:59 PM »
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Thanks to everyone for answering, I don't think the difference in ink type would have occurred to me, and googling for this specific problem hadn't really turned up anything along those lines.  Not to mention I probably saved 5 or 6 hours of messing around in printer dialogs and another 6 feet of paper on test prints.

Travis
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