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Author Topic: The most impacting issue with the new Mac Pro?  (Read 8457 times)
Craig Lamson
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« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2013, 06:49:10 PM »
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Depending on your definition of proprietary; as Ive noted up thread, there are already aftermarket replacement drives available.

Edit: mini PCI-e is an industry standard, so not proprietary.

Uh, no.

AS of late Oct.  OWC did not have these new pci-e drives available.

"An OWC SSD?

Rest assured that were hard at work on our own, faster SSD option for all the new PCIe SSD-based Macs for next year just as weve brought for every model introduced 2012 and earlier. In the meantime here are the quick benchmarks:"

http://blog.macsales.com/20862-2013-macbook-pro-with-retina-display-13-and-15-initial-ssd-speed-comparison
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RobSaecker
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« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2013, 08:10:06 PM »
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OK, so not yet available, but still not proprietary.
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2013, 08:10:15 PM »
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Uh, no.

AS of late Oct.  OWC did not have these new pci-e drives available.

"An OWC SSD?

Rest assured that were hard at work on our own, faster SSD option for all the new PCIe SSD-based Macs for next     1\year just as weve brought for every model introduced 2012 and earlier. In the meantime here are the quick benchmarks:"

http://blog.macsales.com/20862-2013-macbook-pro-with-retina-display-13-and-15-initial-ssd-speed-comparison

I'm always skeptical when important information is missing.. it leads me to believe they're showing a relatively meaningless number (seq r/w times) that people think they understand, instead of the actual meaningful number (4k tests) most really don't understand.. marketing scores another taking advantage of the average consumer.   No talk of who makes the controller, if TRIM is supported, what kind of durability factor (how many gigs per day riting times the number of days in the warranty period), or any of the issues PCIe's are known to have issues with.

Or.. well.. if we keep attaching big powerful video cards and PCIe SSD's and RAID cards and who knows what else to the PCIe bus..  when do we max it out?  How close are we to maxing out the bandwidth of the PCIe bus like we did our SATA ports?  

Meanwhile.. Apple is stopping user serviceable memory and drives on laptops.. but telling us the Pro will have both?  Maybe.  But for how long?  The video cards aren't upgradable.. they're what you get for the life of the machine.

There's no denying the MacPro is an attractive machine and Apple has done a lot right.  But they have demonstrated it doesn't bother them at all to change important features consumers find desirable.. like they did with the notebooks.  If the price was right I'd be wondering how well we could get one to run Windows.  But price is the last thing Apple compromises on.
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RobSaecker
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« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2013, 09:27:44 PM »
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Meanwhile.. Apple is stopping user serviceable memory and drives on laptops..

Memory, yes. Drives, no. Go look at the iFixit tear downs, all the drives are on replaceable cards, even in the newest MacBook Air. There's plenty to be critical of in some of Apple's decisions here, soldered on RAM is one that I sure don't like. But let's at least limit it to things they've actually done.
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Craig Lamson
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« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2013, 10:12:35 PM »
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OK, so not yet available, but still not proprietary.

Uh, no.

The connectors and cards are Apple design and not to any industry standard...proprietary.
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Craig Lamson
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« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2013, 10:21:35 PM »
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I'm always skeptical when important information is missing.. it leads me to believe they're showing a relatively meaningless number (seq r/w times) that people think they understand, instead of the actual meaningful number (4k tests) most really don't understand.. marketing scores another taking advantage of the average consumer.   No talk of who makes the controller, if TRIM is supported, what kind of durability factor (how many gigs per day riting times the number of days in the warranty period), or any of the issues PCIe's are known to have issues with.

Or.. well.. if we keep attaching big powerful video cards and PCIe SSD's and RAID cards and who knows what else to the PCIe bus..  when do we max it out?  How close are we to maxing out the bandwidth of the PCIe bus like we did our SATA ports?  

Meanwhile.. Apple is stopping user serviceable memory and drives on laptops.. but telling us the Pro will have both?  Maybe.  But for how long?  The video cards aren't upgradable.. they're what you get for the life of the machine.

There's no denying the MacPro is an attractive machine and Apple has done a lot right.  But they have demonstrated it doesn't bother them at all to change important features consumers find desirable.. like they did with the notebooks.  If the price was right I'd be wondering how well we could get one to run Windows.  But price is the last thing Apple compromises on.

I guess the question is, do consumers really find this ability to change desirable?  Clearly a lot of us do, but what about the rest of the world?  I'm guessing there are a whole bunch of consumers who don't give a fig if they can muck around inside their Macbook, iMac or Mini.  They only want to turn it on and have it work, for 2 to 4 years and then get something new. 

Even here we have a subset of users with no real desire to do anyti8hng to their computers other than turn them on and use them.  You know me pretty well, and I'm even getting closer to that point.  Not all the way there yet, still kicking and squirming, but mucking is less fun than before...Smiley

And really, Apple has made it difficult to muck around inside their stuff since the beginning.

BTW, I've not done it native, but they say Mac's make a great windows machine.
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2013, 12:43:08 AM »
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Memory, yes. Drives, no. Go look at the iFixit tear downs, all the drives are on replaceable cards, even in the newest MacBook Air. There's plenty to be critical of in some of Apple's decisions here, soldered on RAM is one that I sure don't like. But let's at least limit it to things they've actually done.

You're right, I meant to say RAM.  I've had many people tell me over the years they buy a computer with a minimum amount of RAM and a slow/small drive just to get into it.. and then upgrade both later as they can afford it.  But, with Mac people being made of money even that won't hold them back.. Smiley
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2013, 01:04:01 AM »
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I guess the question is, do consumers really find this ability to change desirable?  Clearly a lot of us do, but what about the rest of the world?  I'm guessing there are a whole bunch of consumers who don't give a fig if they can muck around inside their Macbook, iMac or Mini.  They only want to turn it on and have it work, for 2 to 4 years and then get something new. 

Even here we have a subset of users with no real desire to do anyti8hng to their computers other than turn them on and use them.  You know me pretty well, and I'm even getting closer to that point.  Not all the way there yet, still kicking and squirming, but mucking is less fun than before...Smiley

And really, Apple has made it difficult to muck around inside their stuff since the beginning.

BTW, I've not done it native, but they say Mac's make a great windows machine.

1.  I think there are three major subsets of users who buy RAM/Drives later.  People who defer costs so they can get more cpu now and drives/ram later, people who aren't satisfied with what the OEM offers (not the desired performance, capacity, price), and finally those who try to extend the life of their machines by upgrading the very two things that improve the most over time,,  Drive Speed/Capacity/Cost and RAM Speed/Capacity/Cost..

2.  True.. but it used to be what we wanted just wasn't available yet, technology was such that a six month later time frame really changed not just price, but technology as well.  SSD's would be a recent example where six months used to make a big diff

3.  I'm seriously eyeing the Mac Pro as a dual boot machine.. I'm sure I could duplicate the theme/power/and especially the price for a dual OS machine with some I build.. but at this current time I don't think I could do it nearly as small and quiet as the purpose built Apple.. and my wife would love me reducing my PC's footprint.. considering where I have it..   
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2013, 08:25:00 AM »
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OK, so not yet available, but still not proprietary.

Anand from Anandtech has confirmed yesterday that the PCIe SSD connectors used by Apple in their 2013 laptops are proprietary and that there are currently no available third party SSDs equipped with compatible connectors.

Cheers,
Bernard
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NancyP
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« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2013, 10:49:59 AM »
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Soldered-in RAM does not bode well - are they doing this to other products? I happen to be one of those that can afford to max out RAM and processor on each new computer (typical computer interval 3 to 5 years), but others may not be able to afford both best RAM and best processor at the same time. And soldered-in RAM prevents installation of backward compatible newer RAM, although if you maxed out RAM at the start, you bump up against overall design limitations optimizing performance at a particular quantity of RAM.

I think that Apple is cultivating Hackintoshes with this move.

Speaking of which, I just noted the existence of consumer-grade commercial fluid-filled cooling for computers.
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RobSaecker
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« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2013, 11:58:08 AM »
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Anand from Anandtech has confirmed yesterday that the PCIe SSD connectors used by Apple in their 2013 laptops are proprietary and that there are currently no available third party SSDs equipped with compatible connectors.

OK, Im wrong. Sorry.
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« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2013, 12:03:32 PM »
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Soldered-in RAM does not bode well - are they doing this to other products?

This has been the case with Macbook Airs and Macbook Pro Retinas since they were introduced, but so far, not any other Macs.
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phila
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« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2013, 07:36:57 PM »
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I'm wanting to replace my 2008 MacPro, and the new version still seems to be (at this point anyway, given we don't have the final prices with the various options yet) the best bet. An iMac optioned up to max spec is more expensive than the "base" model new MacPro - at least here in Oz. I know it is not comparing apples with apples (so to speak) but as a general guide... I already have an NEC 26" monitor (and no space to use a second). I will still be needing to connect external HHD enclosures (and I am eagerly awaiting to hear the details of the Firmtek Thunderbolt 2 to eSATA solutions) in either case.

Seems to me that even if the MacPro with 32/64GB of RAM and a 512GB/1TB drive is $2000.00 more than the iMac it is still not much to pay over the life of the computer. Especially when it is used everyday for business.
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Steve Weldon
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« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2013, 11:37:29 PM »
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I'm wanting to replace my 2008 MacPro, and the new version still seems to be (at this point anyway, given we don't have the final prices with the various options yet) the best bet. An iMac optioned up to max spec is more expensive than the "base" model new MacPro - at least here in Oz. I know it is not comparing apples with apples (so to speak) but as a general guide... I already have an NEC 26" monitor (and no space to use a second). I will still be needing to connect external HHD enclosures (and I am eagerly awaiting to hear the details of the Firmtek Thunderbolt 2 to eSATA solutions) in either case.

Seems to me that even if the MacPro with 32/64GB of RAM and a 512GB/1TB drive is $2000.00 more than the iMac it is still not much to pay over the life of the computer. Especially when it is used everyday for business.

With this type of thinking you could justify anything.  The right person in the right mood could probably justify a $150 cup of latte.  Who cares what you use it for, how it's equipped or how much any of us think it's a good value?

What matters is it's position in the marketplace.  For instance how much can you get the next 4-5 like computers for in comparison.   You set your requirements and shop based on their price.  Otherwise emotions get into the mix and the world goes all to hell.. unless you'll be marrying your computer.. then like a woman you're allowed to lose all objectivity.. ;o)
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westfreeman
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« Reply #34 on: December 14, 2013, 07:53:36 PM »
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Seems to me that even if the MacPro with 32/64GB of RAM and a 512GB/1TB drive is $2000.00 more than the iMac it is still not much to pay over the life of the computer. Especially when it is used everyday for business.

This is how lux makers of anything sell there goods.  Yes Apple is a high priced item, all of them; from the Mac Pro to the iPod.  All of these do it well, very well though.  I know that my current Mac Pro is 4+ years old.  How often do you want to replace your computer and camera and printer?  I want them to last as long as they can in a useful state.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #35 on: December 14, 2013, 09:58:25 PM »
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This is how lux makers of anything sell there goods.  Yes Apple is a high priced item, all of them; from the Mac Pro to the iPod.

True, besides I would argue that the Mac Pro is in fact priced very smilarly to workstations from reputed vendors such as Dell or HP.

Those are the machines you have to compare against, not self made machines built from components.

Cheers,
Bernard
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jduncan
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« Reply #36 on: December 16, 2013, 02:13:18 PM »
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True, besides I would argue that the Mac Pro is in fact priced very smilarly to workstations from reputed vendors such as Dell or HP.

Those are the machines you have to compare against, not self made machines built from components.

Cheers,
Bernard


Agree, machines that normally don't use Xeons for example. Apple may have trow itself another cube.

The point is not how many people have a Red  Rocket card, the point is:
Will bloggers  persuade a lot of potential users that the system lacks something they need?
As they say, perception is reality.

I believe they should have gone with a dual CPU option, to get the extra PCIe lanes for a second  SSD  (with higher performance) etc. The price will go up and most people will not exploit the 24 cores, but that's beside the point.

I believe that the point that will decide for me is related to the graphics card: Can it be updated ? even if it means buying from Apple?

 Let see how it goes.

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Chris Kern
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« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2013, 07:04:21 PM »
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. . . the point is:
Will bloggers  persuade a lot of potential users that the system lacks something they need?
As they say, perception is reality.

I believe they should have gone with a dual CPU option, to get the extra PCIe lanes for a second  SSD  (with higher performance) etc. The price will go up and most people will not exploit the 24 cores, but that's beside the point.

I believe that the point that will decide for me is related to the graphics card: Can it be updated ? even if it means buying from Apple?

My impression is that the primary target market for this product is the trade the larger commercial video shops, for the most part, which make volume purchases.  Apple has been losing market share to the WIntel market in this segment during the long hiatus between Mac Pro refreshes and, wholly aside from the revenue involved, Apple is an image-conscious company that has always been concerned about its professional (that's why they brand it "Mac Pro") constituency.

Of course, I'm sure Tim Cook will be delighted with whatever small business or consumer orders the company gets, including onesies from amateur photographers, like me, who are MS-Windows-averse.  But we don't provide the cachet of the volume market and, given that many of us are very price-sensitive and it almost always is possible to get comparable performance at a lower price-point with a WIntel machine, we're not a big revenue-generator.

Now the thing about volume desktop computer purchasers I used to be one is that we don't often if ever upgrade the hardware components in our machines.  When you consider the labor cost of even a simple upgrade on, say, 2.5K boxes, it rarely makes sense unless the benefits in measurable end-user productivity, are huge.  And it's rarely practical to measure the benefits.  And when you do go to the time and trouble to do so rigorously, they usually are disappointingly small.

No inside information, but I would be quite surprised if Apple didn't survey some of its customers with large installed bases of older Mac Pros before proceeding to manufacturing with this radical new design.  My guess is they found most of them were running the same hardware configurations they originally had purchased, and that reducing power consumption, limiting heat dissipation and yes even minimizing noise were much more important functional requirements than internal expansion or upgrade capability.

Apple, along with OWC and other suppliers, will surely offer memory and flash mass-storage upgrade options.  Apple, and possibly some other supplier(s), may offer graphics upgrades for the 2013 product some years from now.

But my advice to anyone who is concerned about drinking the Apple Kool-Aid (and, again, I should point out that I will be ordering a Mac Pro, if not tomorrow then within a couple of weeks when I know what memory upgrades OWC is offering), is buy or, if you have the ability, build a WIntel machine.  You will almost certainly spend less for comparable performance and you will be able to tinker with the hardware as much as you want for as long as you like.
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phila
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« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2013, 07:39:03 PM »
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http://eshop.macsales.com/shop/memory/Mac-Pro-Memory#1866-memory
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Chris Kern
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« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2013, 07:52:56 PM »
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Thanks for the link.  They didn't waste any time, did they?  The machine isn't even available for order yet (at least, not as of the time of this writing).
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