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Author Topic: Best Highlight Roll off for fashion; Nikon D600 or Sony A7?  (Read 1921 times)
billy
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« on: December 17, 2013, 05:27:46 PM »
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Hello, I am buying a new camera based solely on how the camera will react to 'on location fashion photography' , a lot of time shooting backlit or side lit and bouncing in fill light with reflectors. I do not need to base the camera purchase on anything else so please do not mention AF etc. Which of these cameras that are rated highly for DR will render a prettier highlight rolloff? I am used to shooting color negative film so that is my benchmark. Thanks in advance.
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billy
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« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2013, 12:53:15 PM »
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. it seems that not man people have the Sony 7R yet so my original question seems to soon to tell. How about any D600 owners, care to chime in regarding the highlight roll off? Burned out highlights in the skin and hair are what I am trying to avoid.
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TMARK
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« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2013, 02:49:04 PM »
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I don't have a D600/D610.  It is similar to the D800, or so I've heard.  Highlights blow softly unless its extreme.  the shadows are so clean you can underexpose to preseve the highlights and not lose anything, at low ISO.  The D800 is like shooting film in its latitude, I've heard the D600/610 is perhaps a bit better.

. it seems that not man people have the Sony 7R yet so my original question seems to soon to tell. How about any D600 owners, care to chime in regarding the highlight roll off? Burned out highlights in the skin and hair are what I am trying to avoid.
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2013, 03:15:58 PM »
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Which of these cameras that are rated highly for DR will render a prettier highlight rolloff?

Hi,

Highlight roll-off is 100% post-processing in normal digital capture. All cameras are the same, with a linear response curve, only the Raw converters (assuming you shoot Raw) can add a roll-off.

Cheers,
Bart
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TMARK
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« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2013, 03:30:01 PM »
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I agree, but I don't think the op is really asking about Roll off because with digital its clipping and antiblooming. 

But in practice with dslrs prior to the D800, blowing highlights in high key fashion was a serious problem.  You coant preserve highlights and pull up shadows to midtone to make a shot, as referenced by the OP, not look like crap.

I will say that the way highlights clip on, say, a leica Monochrom versus the D800 is starkly different.  On the Leica there is an abrupt end to information. On teh D800 it appears there is a very analogue feeling roll off.  I'm not a lab coat guy, but this is what I see.  using Capture 1 and LR.

Hi,

Highlight roll-off is 100% post-processing in normal digital capture. All cameras are the same, with a linear response curve, only the Raw converters (assuming you shoot Raw) can add a roll-off.

Cheers,
Bart
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Fine_Art
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« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2013, 04:22:10 PM »
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They are the same sensor so the differences will be in the lenses, then the better nikon flash system, then 14bit vs 12, then lack of mirror slap in the sony.
You might get a very magical look using A7 focus peaking with the STF lens.
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billy
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« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2013, 04:52:02 PM »
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Thanks TMARK, I think you know the look I am going for.

The D600 is so cheap that I am gonna go with that and a 50mm lens and call it good.
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2013, 05:15:39 PM »
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I will say that the way highlights clip on, say, a leica Monochrom versus the D800 is starkly different.  On the Leica there is an abrupt end to information. On teh D800 it appears there is a very analogue feeling roll off.  I'm not a lab coat guy, but this is what I see.  using Capture 1 and LR.

Hi,

Capture One can use a Film curve response (= non-linear postprocessing of linear sensor response) or a linear curve response (= only gamma pre-compensated response). Lightroom uses a linear response  only gamma pre-compensated response) in Process version 2010, or a highlight compression in Process version 2012 (= non-linear postprocessing of linear sensor response). It's only postprocessing, the sensors are linear.

You can roll your own shoulder roll-off in post-processing.

Cheers,
Bart
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TMARK
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« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2013, 10:42:21 PM »
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This is a good move. Good luck!  Post some pics!

Thanks TMARK, I think you know the look I am going for.

The D600 is so cheap that I am gonna go with that and a 50mm lens and call it good.
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2013, 12:16:10 AM »
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All cameras are the same, with a linear response curve
just wait for Iliah Borg to come and tell that it is not so close to sensor saturation based on how that is implemented in a particular camera...
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Lightsmith
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« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2013, 01:38:44 PM »
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Highlight problems were most common 10 years ago with the first affordable DLSR cameras. It has become much less of a problem with cameras produced over the past 5 years, at least with the ones I have used from Canon and Nikon. One can use a custom curve with a camera that will affect how it records highlights but with the Nikon this is done dynamically with the Active D-lighting function. It creates a profile that is then applied in post processing.

This all assumes that you are generating RAW files and not JPEG ones. I did a test a few years ago when I first got a Nikon D3. I did dozens of shots with each one bracketed by 1 EV so I had 100 or so files with a third at -1.0 EV, a third at 0.0 EV, and a third at +1.0 EV. These were pictures of a bride and a groom and had whites, blacks, and reds (the most difficult color to deal with in post processing), as well as skin tones.
The -1.0 EV were the worst in terms of color fidelity when adjusted with ACR and imported into Photoshop. What I found and had not expected was that in more than a few situations the +1.0 EV or "overexposed" shots were the best in terms of color rendition after adjustment in ACR for the exposure.

One reads how much data is lost with underexposure but this experiment made it abundantly clear that even slight underexposure at the "correct" 0.0 EV settings resulted in lost information and this was visible on the screen when reviewing the images. I then realized that unlike with the older cameras where one needed to slightly underexpose to avoid blown highlights and loss of detail that the greater concern should be to not underexpose and lose valuable color data.

I would expect any photographer to be looking beyond the camera and considering also the available lenses for the camera from the manufacturer and third parties as well as the flash options available (greatest with Nikon, seconded by Canon, and nada for others). I like having Canon eTTL or Nikon iTTL compatibility with my Quantum Qflash location lighting and doing flash EV output adjustments wirelessly in 1/3 EV increments at distances of up to 600 feet with 100% reliability. I would be comparing the Nikon 610 with the Canon 5D Mark III.   
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billy
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« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2013, 03:11:48 PM »
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Highlight problems were most common 10 years ago with the first affordable DLSR cameras. It has become much less of a problem with cameras produced over the past 5 years, at least with the ones I have used from Canon and Nikon. One can use a custom curve with a camera that will affect how it records highlights but with the Nikon this is done dynamically with the Active D-lighting function. It creates a profile that is then applied in post processing.

This all assumes that you are generating RAW files and not JPEG ones. I did a test a few years ago when I first got a Nikon D3. I did dozens of shots with each one bracketed by 1 EV so I had 100 or so files with a third at -1.0 EV, a third at 0.0 EV, and a third at +1.0 EV. These were pictures of a bride and a groom and had whites, blacks, and reds (the most difficult color to deal with in post processing), as well as skin tones.
The -1.0 EV were the worst in terms of color fidelity when adjusted with ACR and imported into Photoshop. What I found and had not expected was that in more than a few situations the +1.0 EV or "overexposed" shots were the best in terms of color rendition after adjustment in ACR for the exposure.

One reads how much data is lost with underexposure but this experiment made it abundantly clear that even slight underexposure at the "correct" 0.0 EV settings resulted in lost information and this was visible on the screen when reviewing the images. I then realized that unlike with the older cameras where one needed to slightly underexpose to avoid blown highlights and loss of detail that the greater concern should be to not underexpose and lose valuable color data.

I would expect any photographer to be looking beyond the camera and considering also the available lenses for the camera from the manufacturer and third parties as well as the flash options available (greatest with Nikon, seconded by Canon, and nada for others). I like having Canon eTTL or Nikon iTTL compatibility with my Quantum Qflash location lighting and doing flash EV output adjustments wirelessly in 1/3 EV increments at distances of up to 600 feet with 100% reliability. I would be comparing the Nikon 610 with the Canon 5D Mark III.   

I guess it just depends on the type of work you do and the look you want. I shoot canon dslr's ( 1dx, 5dmk3, etc ), the highlight rolloff is painful. I need way more fill light to get the look I want so I don't blow my highlights when using Canons ( compared to color negative film ). For my work, it is still problem, trust me. I will be purchasing the Nikon D600.
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