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Author Topic: Properly creating custom paper profiles. ColorMunki and media setting.  (Read 3667 times)
John V.
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« on: December 18, 2013, 06:25:34 PM »
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A brief search turned up no obvious results.

So, I bought a ColorMunki. Some slight confusion.

When I go to print the target that will be used to create a profile, I'm assuming that I need to use the "media type" setting given by the paper manufacturer. For example: (this is using the canned profiles from Lexjet) Lexjet tells me I need to use "Watercolor Paper Radiant White" when printing on Sunset Select Matte Canvas. ( Well, actually, as per Lexjets print instructions for the 11880, it states you are suppose to use "UlraSamooth Fine Art Paper," but this apparently isn't exactly true. Lexjet just forgets to mention this...)

So, my questions are: Does it make a difference what "media type" setting I use to print the ColorMunki target? Aside from PK/MK black issue, I was under the impression that "media type" only affects things like platen gap settings and other physical media characteristics, and nothing to do with color.

Example: (this is all using Sunset Select Matte as an example) Suppose I print a target using Watercolor Radiant White as the media type, generate the profile, and use that profile with that specific media-type setting. Would I achieve the same results if I were to print the target using UltraSmooth Fine Art as the media type, generate the profile, and use THAT profile with THAT specific media type setting?

Lastly, if media-type does indeed make a difference during the target printing stage, what do I do if a paper manufacturer doesn't state which media-type setting should be used? Example: Lexjet doesn't state what should be used when printing from a 4900 using Sunset Matte Canvas. They don't even have a canned profile for it, actually.

« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 06:32:21 PM by onemoret1me » Logged
digitaldog
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« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2013, 06:34:36 PM »
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You must print the targets exactly as you'll print the final images in terms of setting up the print driver options. Yes, set the media settings. The only difference is you will print the targets tihout applying color management which the Munki software should take care of for you.

If you are working with a 3rd party paper, find out what media settings they suggest. Or download the my Ink Density test file here:

http://digitaldog.net/files/InkDensity.zip

Pick a media setting that produces the best separation within the tones.
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Andrew Rodney
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John V.
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« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2013, 06:38:33 PM »
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ok so when I ask:

Example: (this is all using Sunset Select Matte as an example) Suppose I print a target using Watercolor Radiant White as the media type, generate the profile, and use that profile with that specific media-type setting. Would I achieve the same results if I were to print the target using UltraSmooth Fine Art as the media type, generate the profile, and use THAT profile with THAT specific media type setting?

The answer to that is YES, then?

I understand that I have to use the same media-type setting that the profile was actually created with.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2013, 06:40:43 PM »
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The media profile is pretty important and if it's laying out too much ink, the profile can't 'correct' for this! All profiles do is fingerprint a process. Make the process as ideal as possible, then profile.
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Andrew Rodney
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John V.
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« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2013, 06:48:34 PM »
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ah I see.

But, is it safe (enough) to assume that if, (using Lexjet again as an example) if Lexjet says to use their canned profile with X media-type setting, that I should use that same media-type setting to print the target for the ColorMunki?
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digitaldog
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« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2013, 06:49:36 PM »
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But, is it safe (enough) to assume that if, (using Lexjet again as an example) if Lexjet says to use their canned profile with X media-type setting, that I should use that same media-type setting to print the target for the ColorMunki?
Probably fine.
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Andrew Rodney
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John V.
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« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2013, 06:50:38 PM »
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Smiley
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Justin B
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« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2013, 08:24:36 PM »
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For what it's worth, I've seen multiple instances of length-wise "shrinkage" when using a fine art paper media type setting (like Watercolor Paper Radiant White or Ultrasmooth Fine Art Paper) for matte canvas.

I'd try and stick with the Canvas media type if Lexjet's media allows--in terms of ink limits--since I've seen this (almost completely) solve the "shrinkage" issue.
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JB
John V.
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2013, 08:24:04 PM »
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Yeah I've been dealing with this. "Co-stan-za"
 
I'm waiting on a reply from Lexjet about using the Canvas setting.

What do you mean when you say "..if Lexjet's media allows--in terms of ink limits..."

I mean, they'll know this, correct? Otherwise, what? Just trial end error?

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Justin B
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2013, 11:37:15 PM »
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What do you mean when you say "..if Lexjet's media allows--in terms of ink limits..."

I just mean if that particular canvas can accept the amount of ink without visual anomalies (i.e.: ink "pooling" or excessive loss of shadow detail).

I mean, they'll know this, correct?

Debatable.

Otherwise, what? Just trial end error?

You can print DigitalDog or Scott Martin's density evaluation image using a few different types to see which gives you the best density without those anomalies. You could also measure each and look for the chroma peak to make it a bit "quantifiable."
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 11:39:14 PM by Justin B » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2013, 12:46:25 PM »
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for what it's worth, I make very small i1 profiles on the most likely media setting candidates then evaluate the settings based on tools like ColorThink that give back valuable info from the profile. Obviously much if not all of what you need to know is in that measurement data, and profile tools are more dependable and faster than the eye, or additional measurements of densities or neutral axis evaluation. Obviously at that point you can see something on paper as well, pre and post profile on a setting...
Tyler
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John Chardine
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« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2014, 07:20:08 PM »
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You must print the targets exactly as you'll print the final images in terms of setting up the print driver options. Yes, set the media settings. The only difference is you will print the targets tihout applying color management which the Munki software should take care of for you.

If you are working with a 3rd party paper, find out what media settings they suggest. Or download the my Ink Density test file here:

http://digitaldog.net/files/InkDensity.zip

Pick a media setting that produces the best separation within the tones.

Unfortunately the Colormunki software does not take care of disabling colour management. I have just posted a question about how to do this in Mavericks.
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Alan Goldhammer
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« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2014, 04:34:31 PM »
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I've used Scott Martin's density evaluation image that was previously mentioned.  I've found that the manufacturer's suggested settings for my Epson 3880 are always in accord with that image.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2014, 04:56:22 PM »
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Unfortunately the Colormunki software does not take care of disabling colour management. I have just posted a question about how to do this in Mavericks.
It should. Is this something you're seeing new in Mavericks and  is an X-rite bug? Because if you go into the print dialog, you should see the ColorSync radio button grayed out but selected when you go into Color Matching. Of course, you must select the proper setting in the driver (for Epson, that's Color Mode OFF and No Color Management shown).
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Andrew Rodney
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MirekElsner
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« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2014, 09:18:46 PM »
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It should. Is this something you're seeing new in Mavericks and  is an X-rite bug? Because if you go into the print dialog, you should see the ColorSync radio button grayed out but selected when you go into Color Matching. Of course, you must select the proper setting in the driver (for Epson, that's Color Mode OFF and No Color Management shown).

This screenshot shows how it can be turned off in ColorMunki software on Mavericks.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 09:20:40 PM by MirekElsner » Logged
Simon J.A. Simpson
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« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2014, 04:24:12 PM »
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It should. Is this something you're seeing new in Mavericks and  is an X-rite bug? Because if you go into the print dialog, you should see the ColorSync radio button grayed out but selected when you go into Color Matching. Of course, you must select the proper setting in the driver (for Epson, that's Color Mode OFF and No Color Management shown).

I can't speak for Mavericks, but in Lion the ColorMunki software appears not to disable colour management satisfactorily (given all the uncertainties around Apple's colour management workflow).

Take a look at this discussion:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=63451.0

The short answer is that the consensus was that using Adobe's ‘Color Printer Utility’ to print the targets gave the most reliable results.  It can be downloaded from here:
http://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/kb/no-color-management-option-missing.html

Using it with a ColorMunki is a bit convoluted.  Short instructions…
Using the ColorMunki to generate the file for printing you need to use the print dialogue to save the file as a PDF instead of printing it.  Open the PDF in Photoshop ensuring that it does not colour manage the file (i.e. attach a profile to it).  Then save it as TIFF which can then be opened by the Color Printer Utility.  Then print.

Unfortunately there is a bug in the Color Printer Utility which means that the chart of patches prints off to one side.  It is still possible to read them with the Munki however.

I hope this helps.  If you need more detailed instructions post me a message and I will endeavour to help.
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John Chardine
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2014, 07:36:00 AM »
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Just got back to this thread. Thanks for all the information. Printing with no colour management on Mac right now seems to be a rats maze with no clear way out. Does this mean that accurate printer profiling is essentially impossible with the current MAC OSX versions?
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Simon J.A. Simpson
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2014, 08:41:51 AM »
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Quote
Printing with no colour management on Mac right now seems to be a rats maze with no clear way out. Does this mean that accurate printer profiling is essentially impossible with the current MAC OSX versions?

Printing with colour management is fairly easy on Mac OSX, particularly using Photoshop CS5+.  Accurate profiling is possible with a little care.

The problem is only to stop the Mac OS trying to colour manage documents which have no profile allocated to them; which is, to say, documents containing colour patches for measurement to create a profile.  It is perfectly feasible to print these without colour management (not using Photoshop); but for the ColorMunki just a little convoluted.

I do urge you to have a go.  And you can contact me via this forum if you would like some help.
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digitaldog
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« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2014, 11:37:20 AM »
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Just download and use the free Adobe Color Print Utility to do this task.
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Andrew Rodney
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John Chardine
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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2014, 12:54:55 PM »
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It should. Is this something you're seeing new in Mavericks and  is an X-rite bug? Because if you go into the print dialog, you should see the ColorSync radio button grayed out but selected when you go into Color Matching. Of course, you must select the proper setting in the driver (for Epson, that's Color Mode OFF and No Color Management shown).

Thanks for this. When I go into the Print dialogue in the Colormunki software and select my Epson SP7600, then select the Color Matching menu, the Colorsync and Epson Color Controls radio buttons are not greyed out and I can select either one. If I select Colorsync, a profile menu pops up below, so I assume I should select Epson Color Controls. Then select "Off (No Color Adjustment)" in the Color Settings menu of the Print Settings dialogue.
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