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Author Topic: Breathing Color Vibrance Baryta ‘First’ Claim  (Read 3578 times)
cybis
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« on: December 20, 2013, 03:18:10 PM »
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Breathing Color is claiming their new Vibrance Baryta paper is the ‘world’s first OBA-free Baryta Paper’.

http://www.breathingcolor.com/action/bc_shop/248/

If I’m not mistaken, that claim belongs to Hahnemuhle who has been selling  their OBA-free Photo Rag Baryta for years.

What am I missing?
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John Caldwell
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« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2013, 12:38:12 AM »
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I'm with you that it's not a first. Canson makes the point that Baryta Photographique, a paper many of us know well for a few years now, is OBA-free. I'll ask the question here out of ignorance: If baryta (barium sulfate or thereabouts) is a clay-based compound that is added to a paper's formulation for the purpose of whitening the paper, why is it not called an OBA? Are OBA compounds limited to materials that have a temporary bleaching effect, and baryta is not included?

From a correspondence I received from Canson a while ago re Canson's baryta paper:

"Good morning. My name is Gerry Kiely, I am the North American technical support person for Canson Infinity. I recently read a post you made regarding the Canson Infinity Baryta Photographique containing OBA's... Technically, this product does not contain OBA's. It does however (by definition, Baryta) contain barium sulfate which comes from a naturally occurring mineral.
This is not the negatively OBA that many artists like yourself are concerned about.  The grade has been tested by Wilhelm Research for longevity and also found to have no OBA’s"

Baryta apparently changes other aspects of a paper aside from its white value, apparently, but I'm not knowledgable.

Back to cybis' mention of the Breathing Color Vibrance Baryta: I did buy the 17" BC Vibrance Baryta trial roll and have made a few color prints on our Epson 9900 using the canned profile. My impressions, simply by my eye and feel, with no objective measurements are below. I'll cite comparisons to Canson media, only because I've used them so much and because I think several forum members have as much or more Canson experience than I have.

1) White point along line of Canson baryta
2) High Dmax
3) Quite punchy colors, more than Canson
4) Pebble finish, similar to Epson Exhibition Fiber, but with higher gloss. I personally like this finish. It is much like the Canson Platine surface to my eye.
5) Heavy, stiff paper with lots of curl. I worry, based on prior experience, that head strikes may be a problem on 44" rolls, especially near the end of the roll, until it's dialed in on our 9900.
6) Canned profile is plenty close enough to get an idea how the paper takes ink.

Bottom line is that it's a very nice paper and one I'll buy in larger rolls to attempt keeper prints. The price is about what we're used to paying - no better or worse. BC says cut sheets are forthcoming.

John Caldwell
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 12:47:01 AM by John Caldwell » Logged
Ernst Dinkla
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« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2013, 07:06:36 AM »
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There is a Canson man that has a fixed idea that Canson Baryta Photographique is OBA free. It is not. It has the same low Optical Brightening Agent content that Ilford Prestige Galerie GoldFibre Silk paper has. The typical fluorescence effect is visible in their identical spectral plots in my measurements. Aardenburg-Imaging shows different Lab b measurements with two spectrometer modes, one with UV, one without UV, which is another indication it has OBA content. It is set at Low OBA content in the list there. The Canson man might reply on this message too here, he has done it before. Canson has an OBA free Fibre/Baryta paper called Platine. Could be that the confusion has it origins there.

Blanc Fixe, Baryta, Barium Sulfate, BaSO4, has no fluorescence properties but in a very special situation that does not occur in any practical use of inkjet papers. It is a very nice whitening agent for paper, paints, with a high reflection evenly distributed over the visual spectrum. It is not an OBA. Barite, the mineral, can have fluorescence due to impurities but is not used as a whitening agent in paper in that form and even if it was used it would not create the measured effect.

Aardenburg-Imaging has a good article on OBAs on its site:
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com/news.18.html

I have written on the subject of OBAs here:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

Adding more spectral plots to SpectrumViz right now, so by the end of the year the number 600 will be passed:
Jon Cone Type5, many InkPress, some extra PremierArt and some extra MediaJet samples.

Oh, and yes there are older OBA free Baryta/Fibre papers that have no OBAs. Which company was the first I do not know but Breathing Color isn't.

--
Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
July 2013, 500+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 07:10:24 AM by Ernst Dinkla » Logged
kdphotography
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« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2013, 07:15:29 AM »
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....
5) Heavy, stiff paper with lots of curl. I worry, based on prior experience, that head strikes may be a problem on 44" rolls, especially near the end of the roll, until it's dialed in on our 9900.
....

John,

With regard to #5 on your list---paper curl, did your sample by chance exhibit strong "reverse curl?"  I bought a 24" roll of the BC Vibrance Baryta.  This is a very thick, heavy and stiff paper.  I was initially concerned with paper curl because of prior bad experience with the now discontinued Vibrance Rag.  Nice papers, but the paper curl issue is a big negative, with both exhibiting their own form of curl.

The now discontinued Vibrance Rag (a heavy textured paper with a bit of tooth that I did like) exhibited a very strong nasty curl, that followed how the paper was rolled. By "reverse curl" I mean the new Vibrance Baryta actually curls up from the edges of the roll, and after printing in particular, will then curl in the direction opposite of how the paper is rolled.  Very unusual.  And no, it's not a humidity or other issue.  I can (and have) printed several other various medias from difference manufacturers (including BC's Vibrance Lustre) and they all either lay fairly flat or exhibit "normal curl" after printing.  Only the Vibrance Rag does this reverse curl thing and you can spot it from yards away laying on the counter with other papers. And not a little---it's pretty severe.

I can deal with the reverse curl after printing with application of my own D-roller of sorts.  The concern I have is when printing.  When I first loaded this paper (using the recommended settings) my 9900 had difficulties loading the paper, and I experienced disheartening head strikes.  Not the normal, oh that's a little scrape there.  I'm talking head strike of the oh shit my head may be damaged degree.  The reverse curl on the edges of the paper was enough to lift off the paper path, so that when the print carriage passes, it caught on paper edge enough to actually rip a hole in paper!  This is a heavy paper too.  I really can't recall ever experiencing a head strike like this on my 9900 before, nor the difficulties in loading this paper.  It's really hard to describe this "reverse curl" as I've never seen this behavior from a paper before.  The paper is listed as a 14 mil, 345 GSM heavy photo baryta paper. I think the problem is the heavy weight of this paper and I don't think I need this kind of thickness in my work.  Luckily, my 9900 does not appear to have suffered any damage from the head strike.  I do strongly recommend increasing the vacuum on your printer to maximum.

With Vibrance Rag, you could count on losing several feet if not yards of this paper towards the end of a 24", 36" or 44" roll.  I don't think the same is true for Vibrance Baryta.  This paper actually seems to "lift" off the roll; it doesn't have a tendency to stay tightly rolled.  It's that reverse curl characteristic that I worry about, particularly the smaller curl on the edges of the roll paper once it's loaded into your printer....

Maybe I got a 24" roll from a bad batch; I don't know.  I've gone through almost the entire roll now and reverse curl is consistent.  No more head strikes. Full vacuum on.  Otherwise, a nice paper, but the reverse curl issue really sours on me.   Huh  I'm curious to hear your experiences here.

ken
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 07:19:41 AM by kdphotography » Logged

Paul2660
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« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2013, 08:59:43 AM »
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Be very careful leaving this new version in your printer.  The reverse curl can cause serious damage to your printer.  On my 9900 it was a disaster.  I loved the older version with the pebbled finish and strong curl towards the roll.  The old version was 100 cotton rag the new is no longer 100% cotton but alpha cellulose much like Canson's version.  Canson's is thinner and does not have this reverse curl. 

Net. If you leave it in the printer and it reverse curls upwards the head may catch the upward curled edge as mine did. Caused a terrible head strike which on the return pass allowed the head carriage to pass all the easy across and hit the far side of the printer. Trust me if that happens you better have an extended warranty on your printer. 

Paul Caldwell

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Paul Caldwell
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MHMG
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« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2013, 10:55:33 AM »
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There is a Canson man that has a fixed idea that Canson Baryta Photographique is OBA free. It is not. It has the same low Optical Brightening Agent content that Ilford Prestige Galerie GoldFibre Silk paper has. The typical fluorescence effect is visible in their identical spectral plots in my measurements. Aardenburg-Imaging shows different Lab b measurements with two spectrometer modes, one with UV, one without UV, which is another indication it has OBA content. It is set at Low OBA content in the list there.

I concur with Ernst on the OBA assessment for Canson Baryta Photographique. While Canson offers numerous totally OBA-free papers (more so than Hahnemuhle), CiBP is not one of them. Additionally, the CiBP coating shares other properties similar to IGFS paper.  In fact, both papers also share the same signature effects for a phenomenon of light-induced low intensity staining (LILIS) as I've come to call it lately. Media exhibit LILIS if after stopping light exposure and setting aside in dark storage for several weeks or months, the print begins to show additional yellowing/staining of media whites/highlights that isn't occurring to the control prints which never had a prior cycle of sufficient light intensity on display to initiate the LILIS chemical reaction. LILIS  can subsequently be light-bleached partially or fully with further exposure to light, thus there probably exists  some specific light intensity threshold (I don't know how high yet) where a print on continuous display will remain mostly free of the additional staining due to the continuing light intensity "therapy".  However, the unwanted additional staining will eventually return once the print is again retired to dark storage or otherwise very low light levels such as in a photo album or folio or very dimly lit interior room.

Various media also have more intense LILIS staining than others, and in this respect the CiBP and IGFS are not among the biggest offenders, but the phenomenon is easily documented nonetheless.  Again, more research is needed to sort out the significance of the problem, but I do know that ones with high LILIS effects deserve a "not recommended" archival rating as some of the measured  b* values have climbed 10-20 points!, (ie. quite yellow) on samples I retired from light fade testing a couple of years ago.

At first I suspected LILIS was an issue confined to RC type media, and I was particularly suspicious it could be related to antioxidants or other components in the PE/TiO2 layer, but now that I've started to look for it in all the media in the Aardenburg Archives I'm seeing the effect on other non RC papers as well. It seems to correlate very strongly with OBA content, but more research is needed to confirm whether it is the OBA degradation by-products that are causing LILIS directly or whether it's related to other additives that just happen to be routinely added along with OBAs by the manufacturers. The good news is that there are modern media which do not exhibit LILIS, and so far I have found those samples by evaluating OBA-free papers. The new BC Vibrance Baryta would be a good sample to add to my LILIS study collection since it seems to have neither OBAs nor RC/TiO2 layers.

In fact, I have yet to find an OBA-free paper that shows the LILIS symptoms.  Hence, OBA burnout may well be the root of the LILIS phenomenon in modern media and thus OBAs may very well not deserve the widely held notion that the "paper simply returns to its natural color" when OBAs fade. Eventually when I understand the LILIS effect better, I will try to develop a modified light fade test that does a better job integrating the effects of light fading with light-induced low intensity staining, but this research will take more time and money. I do wish the manufacturers would get involved in this issue because I have every confidence they could quickly sort the problem out, after all they know what additives are going into the culprit media. However, I'm pretty sure the printmaking, museums, and archives communities are going to have to build a case for needed improvement first.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 03:24:09 PM by MHMG » Logged
Some Guy
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« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2013, 11:18:35 AM »
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On curl, I've been playing with the BC Silverada Canvas and it too has a strong curl from the sides which struck me as odd.  It's pretty thick (0.430mm) too.  Dry climate (heaters on) so I don't know if that is why.

While running some calibration charts for the i1 PhotoPro 2, the head did strike the paper several times on the Epson 3880.  It hit it hard enough that it moved the paper a bit near the end of the calibration test print and I ended up with a ghost set of color blocks and a double set black end-of-line marks, maybe 15 degrees tilted.  I cut the canvas about 1.5 inches longer and it stopped the shift (I'm guessing the head may clear and stop inking before eject rollers kick it out.), but the head still hit the canvas at times even set to Platen Widest and 5 set on the thickness due to the curl.

Not impressed with it as I use "dye ink" and it will puddle and smear into other colors with that, and worse if the density is moved up from zero.  Coating just doesn't seem receptive to dye ink.  Black dMax isn't too good either.  I'll leave it to pigment ink when I load that ink up again and maybe it will perform better.  Someone else prior said it looked "muddy" and I think that is a good term for the black.  Color gamut was much smaller than the PremierArt Canvas or Canson HD Art Canvas too.

With the i1 PhotoPro 2 head, it did pop up a message box saying "The paper has no OBC added so the OBC test will be skipped."  Thought that odd too since I ran a test for OBC and guess it didn't find any?  First time I've seen that box pop up ever.

Only good thing I can say about it is the stiffness of the canvas made for easy loading and feeding into the printer over all other canvases that are very stubborn with the 3880 paper-skewed "Error on loading" messages.  Not one sheet failed to load which was nice.  Head strikes from the side curl were another matter though.

SG
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John Caldwell
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« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2013, 05:34:25 PM »
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...Canson has an OBA free Fibre/Baryta paper called Platine. Could be that the confusion has it origins there.

I have written on the subject of OBAs here:
http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm

Thanks, Ernst. I knew you'd truly know something about this. I was not aware that Platine was a baryta paper, much as I use it and like it. From Canson's Platine product description we have "Platine Fibre Rag provides the aesthetic and feel of the original F-Type Baryta Fibre paper, having a true pure white tone without using optical brighteners that are known to affect the longevity of digitally produced images", but I didn't take that to mean the paper actually contained baryta. Just curious if it truly does, not that I'd *know what to do with the information*.

Many thanks,

John-
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John Caldwell
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« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2013, 05:41:39 PM »
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On curl, I've been playing with the BC Silverada Canvas and it too has a strong curl from the sides which struck me as odd.  It's pretty thick (0.430mm) too.  Dry climate (heaters on) so I don't know if that is why.

While running some calibration charts for the i1 PhotoPro 2, the head did strike the paper several times on the Epson 3880.  It hit it hard enough that it moved the paper a bit near the end of the calibration test print ...Someone else prior said it looked "muddy" and I think that is a good term for the black.  Color gamut was much smaller than the PremierArt Canvas or Canson HD Art Canvas too.


SG, Are you discussing Breathing Color Silverada canvas or the Vibrance Baryta?

Thanks,

John Caldwell
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« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2013, 05:51:20 PM »
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John,

With regard to #5 on your list---paper curl, did your sample by chance exhibit strong "reverse curl?"  I bought a 24" roll of the BC Vibrance Baryta.  This is a very thick, heavy and stiff paper.  I was initially concerned with paper curl because of prior bad experience with the now discontinued Vibrance Rag.  Nice papers, but the paper curl issue is a big negative, with both exhibiting their own form of curl.

ken

Ken, The 17" x 10 foot trail roll of Vibrance Baryta did not exhibit reverse curl that I could detect, nor did I encounter any head strike after printing all 10 feet on the Epson 9900 - 17" material mind you. I left platen and vacuum at default values for the Epson PSMPP, the suggested "media type" for this paper. My next step is to order a 24" roll and hope for the same print results I did get with the 17" trail roll, but I am of course concerned after reading what you and Paul testified here.

I like the BC Baryta paper for the subject matter I've tested thus far. My next step is to to try to laminate a print, which is something I do with some portion of my prints currently made with Canson's Baryta Photographique. While this is not proper fine art use, it's an important part of my final output and I'm eager to see the interaction between the BC baryta surface and the luster laminate. The Canson surface is "bland" once laminated, and that can be good or bad depending on the situation.

John Caldwell
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cybis
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« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2014, 12:15:52 PM »
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Got an email from BC. They made an honest mistake and will be removing that claim from their marketing material ASAP.
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John Caldwell
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« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2014, 03:10:42 PM »
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Breathing Color made cut sheets of the Vibrance Baryta available as of a few weeks ago, which pleased me because I so like this paper. Unfortunately there is very heavy "reverse curl" in the sheet goods, and none of my Epson 900 printers will process the sheets without head crashes, and spooling the sheet material within the printer instead of the sheet leaving the printer. Reverse curl is of course what Ken was referencing in his remarks some weeks ago, but Ken was discussing roll goods, as roll material was the only BC Baryta at that time. By reverse curl in sheets, I am saying the sheets are concave upwards, when lying with the printable surface facing up. By concave, I mean all four edges of the sheet cup upwards, so it's quite a setup for the sheet to create various obstructions within the printer transport.

Breathing Color admitted the problem with sheet material once I contacted them, and they have agreed to accept in return the 5 boxes I had purchased in my enthusiasm. The intent is reformulate the Vibrance Baryta product do deal with excessive curl, I have been informed, but no deadline for product revision has been shared with me.

This is a very nice paper and I am hopeful it can be made workable in sheets. I'll say the price for cut sheets was very fair - on par with what we pay for Canson Baryta, which is some 20-25% less than we pay for the Canson Platine.

John Caldwell
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kdphotography
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« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2014, 04:29:43 PM »
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BC customer service is very good, so glad they took care of you, John.

It's disappointing to hear about the reverse curl.  And I know it is not related to humidity as I can print with other similar substrates that either exhibit no curl at all, or show normal amounts of curl---but certainly not "reverse curl."  This is very unusual---and because of the direction of the curl, is rather unsettling when it causes printer head strikes.  My guess is that the paper is simply too thick and heavy.  No need for that kind of thickness or weight.  I hope BC can offer something right in between with the tooth of the now discontinued Vibrance Rag (severe normal curl) and the Vibrance Baryta.

ken
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Paul2660
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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2014, 06:12:45 PM »
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I mentioned earlier, but if you run a 9900 or any of the 9X Epson's, I would be very careful about using this paper Vibrance B from BC.  The new formulation. 

The reverse curl will eventually catch the head on the far side unless the paper has been re-formulated from what was shipped in late 2013.  This will cause the head to 'jump" the track, loose information on where it is on the print, and on the next pass, the head will slam into the far side of the case.  The head will lose this transaction. 

This seems worse on the 44" and 36" rolls but the damage will cause a head replacement, trust me on that.  I have been through it.

In the past, I have always been a big fan of BC and their customer service, but in this situation, they basically went moot.  I had an extended warranty or the damage would have cost me $2500.00, as I ended up needing both a head and the head carriage.  The fact that BC still sells this paper surprised me as I don't think my 9900 is unique in any way and the amount of damage that was caused to me and the printer was considerable.

The paper is also way too thick and the 9900 can't push it without developing a faint scratching.  You will not see these scratches on a busy print, but areas of dark to medium solids will show immediately. 

You may get one print to work fine, but if you leave the paper in the printer, for say 30 minutes, the reverse curl will lip up and if it gets high enough, then the head will jump as it hits it as the curl will work as a lift or ramp.

The older version of this paper worked much better.

Paul

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Paul Caldwell
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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2014, 06:39:03 PM »
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Paul, By old formulation I think you refer to the Vibrance Rag. That was a nice paper, and also thick, but it behaved a lot better and seemed to harbor less mechanical memory. It did contain OBA, as you'll recall. In a moment of candor, a senior BC person told me the problem with the Vibrance Rag was its production cost and the inability to sell it at a reasonable price. A 25 sheet box of 13x19 was $100 retail! But on the current product, I was surprised by the need to call the company to explain that not one cut sheet of the Baryta would run through my machines, and to have them agree fully. That they knew of the problem seemed to me to be grounds for a product recall, instead of a waiting to see who would demand their money back strategy. My brand allegiance has been stressed by this, I will confess.

The current BC Vibrance paper does worry me and the threat of the kind of strikes you experienced is worrisome indeed. But I will continue cautious use of the baryta roll material on our Epson 9900 and HP Z3200 machines, and await with interest the reformulated sheet papers.

John Caldwell
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« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2014, 11:08:25 PM »
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Has anyone compared BC Vibrance Baryta with Red River San Gabriel Baryta? They are both OBA free and wood pulp based rather than the more expensive Platine and Museo Silver Rag.

I have enough stock of Canson Baryta Photographique, so I am in no rush to try either, but I have heard good reports of both (ex the curl issue) and would eventually prefer to move away from OBAs for this type of paper.

The FB market is pretty crowded at the moment; just on pulp based paper:
 
Bonjet Atelier Fibre
Breathing Color Vibrance Baryta
Canson Baryta Photographique
Epson Exhibition Fiber
Fotospeed Platinum Baryta
Fujifilm Museum Baryte
Hahnemühle Baryta FB 350
Hahnemühle Fine Art Baryta
Hahnemühle Photo Silk Baryta
Ilford Gold Fibre Silk (no longer in production)
Innova FibaPrint (in several different finishes)
Kodak Fine Art Fiber Satin
LexJet Fibre Satin
MediaJet PhotoArt White Baryta
Moab Colorado Fiber Satine
PermaJet FB Delta Matt 285
Pictorico Gekko Green
Pinnacle Warmtone Baryta 310
Red River San Gabriel
Sihl Satin Baryta 290
Simply Elegant Gold Fiber
Tetenal Baryt (ivory and white)

Brian A

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kdphotography
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« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2014, 11:22:30 PM »
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Paul,

You've described what I experienced with regard to a severe head strike, but luckily for me my 9900 didn't require any repairs, but it did scare the hell out of me.  The "reverse curl" caught my printer head on the far left side, and all I heard was this horrible head strike, severe enough that the carriage ripped through the paper on its return.  I didn't leave this roll just sitting in the printer either.  This happened to me at least two times---and that's two times too many for me.  I've never ever experienced anything like this before on my printers---and I do use a variety of media. 

I use BC's Lyve canvas exclusively, but I'm steering clear of the BC Vibrance Baryta for now.

ken
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« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2014, 11:40:51 AM »
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Brian, I's paid no attention to the Red River San Gabriel. I see it's 300g/M2 and no OBA. In honesty, I haven't really associated Red River with first quality materials based on my trying a few products in the past. I've though of RR as more of bargain priced 2nd tier papers. Perhaps this is my mistake, and I'll give the san Gabriel a try. It is affordable, certainly.

John-
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« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2014, 12:17:54 PM »
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Paul,

You've described what I experienced with regard to a severe head strike, but luckily for me my 9900 didn't require any repairs, but it did scare the hell out of me.  The "reverse curl" caught my printer head on the far left side, and all I heard was this horrible head strike, severe enough that the carriage ripped through the paper on its return.  I didn't leave this roll just sitting in the printer either.  This happened to me at least two times---and that's two times too many for me.  I've never ever experienced anything like this before on my printers---and I do use a variety of media. 

I use BC's Lyve canvas exclusively, but I'm steering clear of the BC Vibrance Baryta for now.

ken

Ken:

I have a picture of the damage the head did when it caught the reverse curl and when I can find it I will put up a shot.  The head basically jumped the track and came down on the paper, and you can see the various nozzle sections imprinted on the paper as the head was dragging across the paper.  The bigger issue was when this happened, the head/main board lost the alignment data and since the printer no longer knew where the head was or what the output size was it let the head go all the way to the far side of the printer and hit the case.  I still have the scratches on the inside of the case.  The impact broke the paper sensor immediately as it sticks out from the head carriage, the the impact knocked the head out of alignment.

Based on the damage that can happen I am still surprise this paper was not pulled. 

Paul
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« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2014, 11:04:58 PM »
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Brian, I's paid no attention to the Red River San Gabriel. I see it's 300g/M2 and no OBA. In honesty, I haven't really associated Red River with first quality materials based on my trying a few products in the past. I've though of RR as more of bargain priced 2nd tier papers. Perhaps this is my mistake, and I'll give the san Gabriel a try. It is affordable, certainly.

I have similar feelings about Red River papers. I have used their Linen pre-scored cards, but nothing much else. I just wonder if they have actually come up with a higher grade paper. I have heard it is great, but only from dedicated follows with absolutely no comparison to any other papers. So compared to other Red River papers it may be great, but compared to other barytas?

Brian A
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