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Author Topic: V600 and Vuescan: constant workflow  (Read 3381 times)
Lorenzo Pierucci
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« on: December 29, 2013, 10:55:33 AM »
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Hi All,

As i can read in the forum, many had struggled with this topic. Having a great file out of this middle range scanner is not as easy at it seems…
 
I will like to not consider the sharpness in this topic… My question is: color and consistency.

I shoot film as i love the rendering of film as Portra or Velvia. Slide are not really a big problem, but negatives… a mess. There is any way to have a constant color and exposure setting. I find so weird the fact that every time i select a different frame the setting change drastically ( as well as skin tone, white balance, ecc… ). I might do something wrong.

If i shoot 10 exposure of 6x7 portra, the setting should be the same for all the shoots. Why every time i make a new selection, the whole thing change?  Huh

Any help or experience is always more then welcome.

L
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2013, 11:23:31 AM »
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It's not clear exactly what you mean here. Do you mean to say that if you make 10 exposures of exactly the same subject under the same lighting and the same camera settings, each one of those exposures will scan differently with that combination of the V600 and Vuescan you are using?

Or do you mean that the images themselves are of different subject matter or different lighting? In this case, you have to expect the density and colour balance of the negatives to be different from each other, and therefore each needs to be adjusted in Vuescan (or any other scanning software) individually, and the adjustments can be large, depending on how different the photo properties are.

All that said, scanning negatives is not as straightforward as scanning positives, and the scan software can either add to or subtract from the difficulties you are having. While Vuescan itself may do an adequate job, I would nonetheless suggest you test for this variable by downloading a demo version of SilverFast and see what you can achieve with their NegaFix solution (in the software). This will cost you no money, only a bit of time, and then you can assess whether there is a consideration of software in helping with the issue.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Lorenzo Pierucci
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« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2013, 12:13:52 PM »
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thanks for the reply!

u make a good point, i wasn't clear.

i talk about shoots of different subject matters. but even so, the negative should not be scanned same way? is 3 layers of silver hit by light. the light and setting of the scanner should not be the same.? i might be wrong but if so i dont get the logic of it.
when i select a frame all the others go bananas… is not possible have all the frame selected and then scanned same way? epson scan software does it. but scan quality is so so... i do own also silver fast. did not like it. but will check this option. Smiley

help Huh
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« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2013, 12:49:19 PM »
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thanks for the reply!

u make a good point, i wasn't clear.

i talk about shoots of different subject matters. but even so, the negative should not be scanned same way? is 3 layers of silver hit by light. the light and setting of the scanner should not be the same.? i might be wrong but if so i dont get the logic of it.
when i select a frame all the others go bananas… is not possible have all the frame selected and then scanned same way? epson scan software does it. but scan quality is so so... i do own also silver fast. did not like it. but will check this option. Smiley

help Huh

Lorenzo, if the content of the photos is different, the lighting and colour balance in each photo are most likely different, therefore each needs to be adjusted individually to get the tone and colour you want, unless your goal is simply to scan exactly what a reversal of the negative produces and then do any other adjustments in an external image editor such as Lightroom or Photoshop. Any competent software should do the latter in exactly the same way from one photo to the next within the same film batch processed under exactly the same conditions (yes, processing matters). If you wish to batch-scan a whole group of negatives in the scan frame, but have each adjusted individually, I don't know whether Vuescan has this capability, but SilverFast does - it allows you to adjust each image to the bespoke properties you want for it, select the file naming convention you want and then scan the whole batch with one click. If the version of SilverFast you own is 6.6 or earlier, I would recommend you download and run a demo of SilverFast 8 for your scanner model, because the usability is very much improved.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2013, 02:19:38 PM »
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What settings do you use on the V600?  Hve your triee the Epson sscan softwqare the machine came with?  (That's what I use).  Have you tried the auto settings using the Epson scan software?
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Lorenzo Pierucci
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« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2013, 10:57:30 PM »
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I would recommend you download and run a demo of SilverFast 8 for your scanner model, because the usability is very much improved.

I ve bought Silverfast actually, don't really like it. But i will give a try again…. matter of taste: i don't like the interface
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Lorenzo Pierucci
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« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2013, 11:00:22 PM »
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What settings do you use on the V600?  Hve your triee the Epson sscan softwqare the machine came with?  (That's what I use).  Have you tried the auto settings using the Epson scan software?

The auto setting of Epson scan are Great Alan, i love them and i love how u turn tout your photos from them. The problem is that the scan quality is really low to my taste: sharpening and noise redux are not well made, and can t do multiple pass.

Question for you: u scan on the film holder or straight  on the glass plate?

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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2013, 07:04:53 AM »
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I ve bought Silverfast actually, don't really like it. But i will give a try again…. matter of taste: i don't like the interface

Did you buy version 6 or version 8?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2013, 07:08:48 AM »
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The auto setting of Epson scan are Great Alan, i love them and i love how u turn tout your photos from them. The problem is that the scan quality is really low to my taste: sharpening and noise redux are not well made, and can t do multiple pass.

Question for you: u scan on the film holder or straight  on the glass plate?

I don't really recommend doing either grain reduction or sharpening in scanning software, because there are more specialized tools available for performing these functions, and as a matter of optimum workflow, you don't want to bake those settings into a scan, which may need to be rescanned if you don't like what you see in the print.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2013, 08:33:31 AM »
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I use a V700 with Vuescan. Here are two things that might help Lorenzo:

I use Vuescan to save a 'raw' scan. No inversion of the negative, no CM, linear tiff output, absolutely consistent from one negative to the next. I do the inversion in Photoshop using Colorperfect.

When you do use Vuescan to invert the negative then I believe it has a feature that can lock down the colour and exposure of the scans, when scanning negatives in batches. I haven't experimented fully with this, as the above method works so well for me, but I think you can lock the base colour of the negative too from a region of unexposed negative.
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Alan Klein
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« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2013, 09:36:01 AM »
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The auto setting of Epson scan are Great Alan, i love them and i love how u turn tout your photos from them. The problem is that the scan quality is really low to my taste: sharpening and noise redux are not well made, and can t do multiple pass.

Question for you: u scan on the film holder or straight  on the glass plate?


I use the Epson holders.  But I also use very flat film I get back from the pro developers.  That helps a lot because curls can be a problem.  

I now scan flat using the Epson software and do all my adjustments in post.  I was using Photoshop Elements for that but I'm now using LR3.  A lot of my earlier adjustments were done in the scan but as was mentioned by others, you have more capabilities scanning flat and adjusting in post.  I don't think you can do multiple passes on the V600 like on the V700.  Since the full range of values are caught in one pass anyway, and since you cannot vary the speed or light intensity of the scan, what is the point of multiple scans?  You'll have all the data from one scan to work from.

I agree with your comment about sharpening and noise reduction.  I'm really guessing how much to do based on my eye and they're not coming out the best or at least the quality varies from shot to shot.  How do you and others handle sharpening and noise reduction?

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Lorenzo Pierucci
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« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2013, 11:33:18 AM »
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Did you buy version 6 or version 8?

8! and i quite disappointed as i never use it.  I will def give a try to this feature!
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Lorenzo Pierucci
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« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2013, 11:40:35 AM »
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RAW scan is great and work well. Is just a really long work. Did most of you suggest it as the best work flow?

if so i will go with it.

Im also curious which are the best tools for noise and sharpening when dealing with grain. I like my grain ( or what my V600 left of it…..  Cry ) but some noise reduction and sharpening can be useful. The one inside the scan software are pretty lame…. as ICE technology: i don't know if is just my scanner but if i activate it the only result is some horrible artifacts that ruin my photos.

L
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« Reply #13 on: December 30, 2013, 12:57:34 PM »
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I stop using ICE because the scan take too long.  Also, it's pretty easy to take the dust spots off the film.  And you only have to do it once. 
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« Reply #14 on: December 30, 2013, 12:58:55 PM »
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ICE doesn't work on BW. 
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Mark D Segal
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« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2013, 01:15:49 PM »
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RAW scan is great and work well. Is just a really long work. Did most of you suggest it as the best work flow?

if so i will go with it.

Im also curious which are the best tools for noise and sharpening when dealing with grain. I like my grain ( or what my V600 left of it…..  Cry ) but some noise reduction and sharpening can be useful. The one inside the scan software are pretty lame…. as ICE technology: i don't know if is just my scanner but if i activate it the only result is some horrible artifacts that ruin my photos.

L

When you try SilverFast 8 Negafix for scanning your negatives, at the same time you should try using its iSRD tool for removal of dust and scratches. This is a very effective algorithm that normally does not leave artifacts. It identifies dust and scratches from the use of the infra-red channel which you scanner model supports. Normally the default settings work well, but you can make adjustments if you find is necessary. This is a far faster and more efficient way of eliminating dist and scratches than any manual or automated technique I know of in any post-scan software I've ever tested. Using a strong blower brush on the negatives prior to scanning helps to clean up a lot, but if you examine these same negatives that you think have been cleaned at 100% magnification, you would often be surprised how much remains for a tool like iSRD to deal with.

As for your request about good applications to deal with grain and sharpening, I have found that scanner noise and film grain are very well dealt with using either Topaz DeNoise or Neat Image on a duplicate image layer in Photoshop. You can adjust its strength or other features directly in the software itself, or from the opacity setting of the layer. You can add masks to the layer if you would like the effect to work only on selected portions of the photo (skies and skintones for example). For sharpening I highly recommend Photokit Sharpener 2. Especially for dealing with film scans, there is a huge variety of options and settings you can use to get the right balance between noise/grain suppression and apparent image sharpness. You may also wish to consider simply bringing the scanned file directly into Lightroom 4 or Lightroom 5, where the improved tools for noise reduction and sharpening are very effective and pretty much displaces the need for Photoshop and extra plug-ins. So a number of avenues to explore, and use what you find works best for you.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2013, 01:16:28 PM »
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ICE doesn't work on BW. 

Nor will iSRD.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Lorenzo Pierucci
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« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2014, 11:00:28 PM »
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All right, so i did some test:

I did found Vuescan a better software for control, but the color of silverfast and epsonscan are better when scanning JPG or TIFF.

But still something is missing for me Undecided:

 i did shoot RAW, but shooting the raw will give me so much control that i will lose the reason to shoot film, which for me is a particular color tone. Example, i have my portra scanned at the lab ( a random fuji lab down the street where i live in Taiwan ). Resolution is poor, is noisy, but color are the portra color. The highlights have that yellow orange glow while turning to white.

If i shoot in raw i can get there, but i need to tweak which is mean i can do mistake. How my lab can be so constant. What i missing?

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