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Author Topic: Art vs. Otus?  (Read 13757 times)
Theodoros
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« on: January 06, 2014, 06:18:13 PM »
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Sigma announced a 50mm f1.4 new lens for their Art series…

http://nikonrumors.com/2014/01/06/the-new-sigma-50mm-f1-4-dg-hsm-art-lens-is-here.aspx/

The lens is absolutely huge!  Shocked It has 77mm filter diameter and (judging from the pictures with respect to the filter thread) is close to 5 inches long!  Shocked It's almost as big as the Otus! Imagine the look on a camera with the hood on? Shocked

With such characteristics, they seem to aim the lens beyond the camera makers prime series lenses! I wonder if the Otus will be under threat from its throne… It looks that Sigma aims higher than their 35mm f1.4 with this one. I wonder what the price will be, it looks like nothing that one would expect from Sigma….
« Last Edit: January 06, 2014, 06:28:58 PM by T.Dascalos » Logged
BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2014, 06:35:21 PM »
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Sigma announced a 50mm f1.4 new lens for their Art series…

http://nikonrumors.com/2014/01/06/the-new-sigma-50mm-f1-4-dg-hsm-art-lens-is-here.aspx/

The lens is absolutely huge!  Shocked It has 77mm filter diameter and (judging from the pictures with respect to the filter thread) is close to 5 inches long!  Shocked It's bigger than the Otus! Imagine the look on a camera with the hood on? Shocked

With such characteristics, they seem to aim the lens beyond the camera makers prime series lenses! I wonder if the Otus will be under threat from its throne… It looks that Sigma aims higher than their 35mm f1.4 with this one. I wonder what the price will be, it looks like nothing that one would expect from Sigma….

We live very interesting times!

Considering how good the 35mm f1.4 is, my bet would be that this lens will be brilliant.

Cheers,
Bernard
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allegretto
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« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2014, 06:44:37 PM »
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"...I expect this new 50mm to be the best price/performance option available today..."

Yes, whoever is the second owner (or third owner for that matter) will get a very good deal...
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Theodoros
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« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2014, 06:46:11 PM »
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We live very interesting times!

Considering how good the 35mm f1.4 is, my bet would be that this lens will be brilliant.

Cheers,
Bernard

13 elements in 8 groups too! It looks like retrofocal design as is Otus…  I can see some sweat from some Nikon and Canon boys with respect to their lenses. I don't think the Nikkor 58mm f1.4G will feel as comfortable as it looked up to now, neither the Canon 50mm f1.2 L should.
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kers
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« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2014, 07:35:17 PM »
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It was just a matter of time this lens would come and i am pleased it has come soon...
I think Nikon has had there chances making a good 50mm with nanocoating under 1000€ but they did not.; Zeiss made a stellar manual focus for 3500€ (over my budget + manual focus)
Now possibly i will be buying this Sigma lens. It is only that i think the coatings of Nikon (Nano) and Zeiss ( t*) are still my favourite.
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NancyP
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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2014, 01:39:36 PM »
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Well, I am not going to plunk out $3,500.00 for the Otus. For me, the Sigma is an interesting option.
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allegretto
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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2014, 07:31:55 PM »
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Quality has it's price… but it also has advantages. Someone here on one of the threads posted his ART 35mm shots vs. his new Otus. It was no contest to my eye. Done at the jump. And it wasn't image size, it was obvious clarity and detail.

Now before everyone talks about price, go to eBay and see what a 85mm or 50mm 1.2 Canon sells for used and look it up at B&H. Then the same exercise on the 35mm ART. In most cases the loss from using, then selling the item ends up being pretty even money, and you had the real deal. Bet the Otus ends up the same. It's killer good!

Not sure that some "know" the 50mm ART was so good. Compared to the Otus it (35mm) really was disappointing. Don't think the Canon or Nikon folks are sweating that much. In terms of value of the cycle…. the Big Brands fare very well. Time will work in the branded name's favor too. Is any 10 yr old Sigma worth very much? Maybe some are… but there are a lot of other branded lenses that are worth far more than the Sigmas.

In the end, you DO get what you pay for… you may want to rent any lens and compare it to any other lens before you buy, Especially when you want the "good one". I suspect that most folks looking at the ART or the Otus already have a 50mm something, so no rush… make sure it's what you think it is.

As always, YMMV... Smiley
« Last Edit: January 07, 2014, 09:59:25 PM by allegretto » Logged
Hulyss
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« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2014, 05:49:05 AM »
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Sigma announced a 50mm f1.4 new lens for their Art series…

http://nikonrumors.com/2014/01/06/the-new-sigma-50mm-f1-4-dg-hsm-art-lens-is-here.aspx/

The lens is absolutely huge!  Shocked It has 77mm filter diameter and (judging from the pictures with respect to the filter thread) is close to 5 inches long!  Shocked It's almost as big as the Otus! Imagine the look on a camera with the hood on? Shocked

With such characteristics, they seem to aim the lens beyond the camera makers prime series lenses! I wonder if the Otus will be under threat from its throne… It looks that Sigma aims higher than their 35mm f1.4 with this one. I wonder what the price will be, it looks like nothing that one would expect from Sigma….

the Otus will not be under threat but all other 50 ... yes. The design is complex, totally new. My little finger say that it will be VERY well corrected (on par with the Otus), very sharp yet pleasing WO and a very nice bokeh. The perfect 50 for the high MP dslr. All that under 1000$ ... mmmm (It is a wild guess but I do not think I'm wrong on the price).
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2014, 06:50:55 AM »
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Not sure that some "know" the 50mm ART was so good. Compared to the Otus it (35mm) really was disappointing. Don't think the Canon or Nikon folks are sweating that much. In terms of value of the cycle…. the Big Brands fare very well. Time will work in the branded name's favor too. Is any 10 yr old Sigma worth very much? Maybe some are… but there are a lot of other branded lenses that are worth far more than the Sigmas.

I am not sure I share that view.

I own both the Otus and the Sigma 35mm f1.4. Yes, the Otus is better on the D800 in terms of micro detail and lack of color aberrations, but the Sigma does incredibly well in absolute terms, even forgetting that it is 4 times cheaper...

I don't expect the 50mm Sigma to be quite as good as the Otus, but it is likely to be the second best 50mm on the market from a technical standpoint. The Nikon 58mm f1.4 may still be ahead in terms of look though.

Regards,
Bernard
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scooby70
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« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2014, 06:51:41 AM »
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In terms of value of the cycle…. the Big Brands fare very well. Time will work in the branded name's favor too. Is any 10 yr old Sigma worth very much? Maybe some are… but there are a lot of other branded lenses that are worth far more than the Sigmas.

In the end, you DO get what you pay for…
As always, YMMV... Smiley

It's not just about how much money you spend or lose though is it?

If you have a Canon or Nikon (or some other...) camera you'll have very few AF options at each focal length and a few more MF options. If you want an AF lens (and many do) your choice could be between a couple of mediocre and aging Canon 50mm lenses (for exemple) and a best in class (against the Canon...) Sigma. Looking at it like that the Sigma is pretty much a no brainer even if in 5 years time it's worth less than the uninspiring camera brand lens.
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Michael Erlewine
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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2014, 07:16:42 AM »
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Price/performance is always an issue for most of us. I own both the Zeiss 135mm APO and the new Otus 55mm APO and a number of other highly-corrected APO lenses. The quality of these APO lenses can be plotted on an exponential curve, with our paying the big bucks for those last few percentage points of the curve.

Unless your work demands that kind of clarity and high correction, why get the new Zeiss lenses or lenses of similar quality? For me there was no real choice. I have a great number of really fine lenses that I just don't use, most of them because they are not well corrected and that lack of correction degrades the IQ of the lens to my eyes. The arrival of the new Zeiss APO lenses offered me an opportunity that did not exist before they appeared. For my work, these new Zeiss lenses beat out my Leicas, Voigtlanders, Zeiss Makro-Planars, Coastal Optics, etc. in a flash. What were my favorite lenses quickly became those lenses I no longer choose most of the time.

I am seriously considering selling dozens of those lenses I never use. Why keep them? They might as well be a museum for the amount of use they get. For my work, unless the forthcoming lenses from Sigma or any other manufacture are more highly corrected (or of equal quality) than the new Zeiss, I would not be interested. I realize that I probably represent a very small minority of users who feel they need and can use these magnificent APO lenses.

If I think about the investment I have in lenses I don't use, the new Zeiss an inexpensive in comparison.
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Michael Erlewine
Founder: MacroStop.com, AMG - All-Movie Guide, All-Music Guide, All-Game Guide, Matrix Software, Classic Posters, ClassicPosters.com, SpiritGrooves.net, and other sites.
allegretto
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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2014, 12:55:27 PM »
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Yes, exactly my point. Why keep the VW when you have a Porsche? Sell the VW's and get a Porsche.

However I see folks who invested in D800e's and then want to put a Sigma on it and feel just fine. Well fine, but keep in mind that a Sigma ART has already lost 33% of its value the moment you break the seal, and it will never deliver what the Zeiss will.

Buy the Sigma if you want, but it's not the great deal many think it is when comparing cycle costs. Initial costs are not being overlooked but you can buy the good one, enjoy it for as long as you like and get a far more significant  amount back. Even it you lose a few hundred more over a couple of years you have used the best ~50mm lens in das Weld.

Tell you what. When the noise dies down will rent a Sigma 50 and compare it with my Otus (it has to come in by then) and the current ultra-cheapo Canon 50mm 1.8 I currently use. And if you think the 50 f1.8 is a slouch. borrow/rent one and try it. Go pixel peeping for sure. It is a cheap lens and it has flaws. But unless one is doing your kind of work or enjoys a great lens… it will surprise you!



Price/performance is always an issue for most of us. I own both the Zeiss 135mm APO and the new Otus 55mm APO and a number of other highly-corrected APO lenses. The quality of these APO lenses can be plotted on an exponential curve, with our paying the big bucks for those last few percentage points of the curve.

Unless your work demands that kind of clarity and high correction, why get the new Zeiss lenses or lenses of similar quality? For me there was no real choice. I have a great number of really fine lenses that I just don't use, most of them because they are not well corrected and that lack of correction degrades the IQ of the lens to my eyes. The arrival of the new Zeiss APO lenses offered me an opportunity that did not exist before they appeared. For my work, these new Zeiss lenses beat out my Leicas, Voigtlanders, Zeiss Makro-Planars, Coastal Optics, etc. in a flash. What were my favorite lenses quickly became those lenses I no longer choose most of the time.

I am seriously considering selling dozens of those lenses I never use. Why keep them? They might as well be a museum for the amount of use they get. For my work, unless the forthcoming lenses from Sigma or any other manufacture are more highly corrected (or of equal quality) than the new Zeiss, I would not be interested. I realize that I probably represent a very small minority of users who feel they need and can use these magnificent APO lenses.

If I think about the investment I have in lenses I don't use, the new Zeiss an inexpensive in comparison.

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NancyP
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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2014, 01:40:39 PM »
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I fully expect the Otus 55mm to outclass every other normal lens out there, including previous Zeisses. I would be happy to have "second best". While I appreciate fine lenses and their premier image quality, my livelihood doesn't depend on them. Second best (if that is what the Sigma turns out) ought to be pretty good, given that the existing options are good. The Plastic Fantastic (Canon 50mm f/1.8 II) is surprisingly good for the money, ~$120.00 without discount, and it is tiny, for those who want to stay inconspicuous. There is an option for everyone. And I am still using legacy lenses on my 6D, for example, Nikkor 50mm f/1.2 AIS (with adapter), quite sharp when stopped down to f/2.8. I am the local depository for unwanted film cameras and glass, whenever family clean house.

By the way, if you continue to use a lens, it holds its value FOR YOU.

Right now I am in the midst of buying a large format camera and need to buy or dig up a starter lens for it, a meter, a film-loading tent, find my old cable releases, a black/white cloth.....
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allegretto
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« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2014, 03:12:14 PM »
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agree on all counts!


I fully expect the Otus 55mm to outclass every other normal lens out there, including previous Zeisses. I would be happy to have "second best". While I appreciate fine lenses and their premier image quality, my livelihood doesn't depend on them. Second best (if that is what the Sigma turns out) ought to be pretty good, given that the existing options are good. The Plastic Fantastic (Canon 50mm f/1.8 II) is surprisingly good for the money, ~$120.00 without discount, and it is tiny, for those who want to stay inconspicuous. There is an option for everyone. And I am still using legacy lenses on my 6D, for example, Nikkor 50mm f/1.2 AIS (with adapter), quite sharp when stopped down to f/2.8. I am the local depository for unwanted film cameras and glass, whenever family clean house.

By the way, if you continue to use a lens, it holds its value FOR YOU.

Right now I am in the midst of buying a large format camera and need to buy or dig up a starter lens for it, a meter, a film-loading tent, find my old cable releases, a black/white cloth.....
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Telecaster
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« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2014, 04:08:10 PM »
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My pic-taking doesn't require ultra resolution so my interest in the Otus, and lenses that aspire to a similar standard, is about admiration for the technology & design involved rather than a desire to own. For the same reason I admire Porsches but drive a VW.   Cheesy

I really like the 55/58mm focal length on 135 format cameras and own several, none of which are really suitable for what Michael Erlewine does with the Otus but which give me a variety of looks to choose from. I think it's great there are so many options available! The upcoming Sigma 50mm doesn't have to be Otus-level to be a valid & useful lens.

-Dave-
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2014, 04:27:48 PM »
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Yes, exactly my point. Why keep the VW when you have a Porsche? Sell the VW's and get a Porsche.

However I see folks who invested in D800e's and then want to put a Sigma on it and feel just fine. Well fine, but keep in mind that a Sigma ART has already lost 33% of its value the moment you break the seal, and it will never deliver what the Zeiss will.

Buy the Sigma if you want, but it's not the great deal many think it is when comparing cycle costs. Initial costs are not being overlooked but you can buy the good one, enjoy it for as long as you like and get a far more significant  amount back. Even it you lose a few hundred more over a couple of years you have used the best ~50mm lens in das Weld.

The thing is that, today, there is no 35mm bettering the Sigma 35mm f1.4. Neither on Nikon and certainly not on Canon side, so I am unclear how the VW vs Porsche analogy is relevant here.

If you buy lenses to take photograph, as opposed to buying them as an investment (high end wines of 3D pinting companies stock seem like a better bet... but I disgress), and are on a non unlimited budget, the Sigma is a total no brainer in the 35mm focal range and I am pretty certain the 50mm will end up being positioned similarly. I do not intend to sell my Otus but I may very well add the Sigma to my line up because AF is useful for many applications.

Like it or not, based on the quality level reached by the Art series, Sigma may be today the second best lens designer quality wise, only second to Zeiss, and is simply in a class of its own from a price/performance ratio standpoint.

They obviously only offer a few of those, fortunately for Canon and Nikon, but the small Fukushima company is IMHO simply putting the big guys to shame from a lens technical performance standpoint. Now, Nikon has publicly stated with the release of the 58mm f1.4 that their focus was going to be lens rendering, which puts them in a nice niche.

Cheers,
Bernard
 
« Last Edit: January 08, 2014, 06:23:32 PM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

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MrSmith
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« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2014, 05:26:49 PM »
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"but keep in mind that a Sigma ART has already lost 33% of its value the moment you break the seal, and it will never deliver what the Zeiss will."

i'm in the business of making images not selling second hand barely used lenses.
losing value on a piece of equipment that is likely to have a long usable life like a lens is not a big deal for a business.
its about how quickly the investment in equipment is paid back and does that investment help you make money.

the sigma is the kind of lens i want to buy (i reserve the right to change my mind if the reviews are not good) it will make me money not cost me money.
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allegretto
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« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2014, 09:53:52 PM »
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One of the nice things about photography is that between the images and equipment it's enough to keep many of us experimenting and smiling just about all the time. There is satisfaction to be found all over the landscape.

There are products that spin one person's wheel but not another's. The point is that one lens is clearly the "Best" in terms of image quality. Deciding which is "second best" often gets into secondary criteria. For example, you completely omitted the very fine line of Leica lenses. Which contains several very choice 35 and 50mm examples that are so desirable that they often are picked up on the "previously owned" market. And often the seller can sell them for more than what they initially paid. Not saying you have to turn your lenses over in X-number of years, just saying that they can and IMHO think that the "investment grade" of a lens is not something to be overlooked. Even if one must finance a lens purchase over a year or two, financially they would be better off in many cases by "buying up". Amortize it over as much time as you like. The special lenses hold value FOR YOU even better than "second best".

The VW/Porsche comparison could just as easily be applied to just about any commodity. Do you want one example of the finest, or several examples of the lesser item. And, perhaps the Sigma is "second best" on image basis (and maybe not) but it's not Canon or Nikon and not made of the same materials as the top-line examples from those marques. Perhaps that's not important to you, but to another it might be.

Not to steal your thread once again, true that 3D printing will indeed lead to some fortunes, but picking the next Xerox is dicey at this point. Don't use EtOH except very rarely so don't know much about fine wine. There are several, but not many investment types that can be consistently managed into very rewarding positions. But enough…

That someone sees these factors about lenses differently is no problem and I respect other approaches.

May all your images be in focus...

h

The thing is that, today, there is no 35mm bettering the Sigma 35mm f1.4. Neither on Nikon and certainly not on Canon side, so I am unclear how the VW vs Porsche analogy is relevant here.

If you buy lenses to take photograph, as opposed to buying them as an investment (high end wines of 3D pinting companies stock seem like a better bet... but I disgress), and are on a non unlimited budget, the Sigma is a total no brainer in the 35mm focal range and I am pretty certain the 50mm will end up being positioned similarly. I do not intend to sell my Otus but I may very well add the Sigma to my line up because AF is useful for many applications.

Like it or not, based on the quality level reached by the Art series, Sigma may be today the second best lens designer quality wise, only second to Zeiss, and is simply in a class of its own from a price/performance ratio standpoint.

They obviously only offer a few of those, fortunately for Canon and Nikon, but the small Fukushima company is IMHO simply putting the big guys to shame from a lens technical performance standpoint. Now, Nikon has publicly stated with the release of the 58mm f1.4 that their focus was going to be lens rendering, which puts them in a nice niche.

Cheers,
Bernard
 
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2014, 12:21:54 AM »
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Hi,

I mostly shoot at f/8, which is often a good balance between diffraction and DoF. I would believe that using a medium aperture is a great equaliser. The reason that Zeiss has used the Distagon design is probably to keep down vignetting at full aperture. That adds a lot of weight and complexity. One area that also shines is the elimination of longitudional color aberration often causing green/mangenta fringing in out of focus areas at large apertures.

My guess is that a well designed conventional lens would perform pretty close at medium apertures.

I enclose DxO data (acutance across the field) for the Otus and Sigma 50/1.4 (not the art series) and the new Sigma 24-105/4 A series zoom at 50 mm.

Three diagrams, full aperture, f/8 and optimum aperture. As a side note, stopping down the Otus to f/11 and leaving the others at f/8 virtually eliminates the advantage of the Otus.

Best regards
Erik




Yes, exactly my point. Why keep the VW when you have a Porsche? Sell the VW's and get a Porsche.

However I see folks who invested in D800e's and then want to put a Sigma on it and feel just fine. Well fine, but keep in mind that a Sigma ART has already lost 33% of its value the moment you break the seal, and it will never deliver what the Zeiss will.

Buy the Sigma if you want, but it's not the great deal many think it is when comparing cycle costs. Initial costs are not being overlooked but you can buy the good one, enjoy it for as long as you like and get a far more significant  amount back. Even it you lose a few hundred more over a couple of years you have used the best ~50mm lens in das Weld.

Tell you what. When the noise dies down will rent a Sigma 50 and compare it with my Otus (it has to come in by then) and the current ultra-cheapo Canon 50mm 1.8 I currently use. And if you think the 50 f1.8 is a slouch. borrow/rent one and try it. Go pixel peeping for sure. It is a cheap lens and it has flaws. But unless one is doing your kind of work or enjoys a great lens… it will surprise you!



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DaveCurtis
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« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2014, 01:37:16 AM »
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I was very impressed with the Sigma 35mmf1.4 optically however the AF was disappointing to a point where at one stage I considered selling it. I hope they do a better job with the new 50mm.

The bokeh and rendering in my opinion isnt as nice is my Zeiss 35mm f1.4. This maybe due to the fact the Sigma is so well corrected.

I think the new Otus is a marvel, so sharp yet renders so beautifully. No other lens that I am aware of comes close at doing both.
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