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Author Topic: Is a company responsible for what is promised in its online publications?  (Read 1812 times)
synn
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« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2014, 05:08:49 PM »
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I can't help you with the venting part.
What I can suggest though is selling the body on ebay/ KEH and working out a decent package for a refurbished DF+ with your dealer. Your issues aside, the improvements in AF performance and a few other areas make it a worthwhile upgrade.
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yaya
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« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2014, 05:11:15 PM »
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If you want to familiarize yourself with the case details, the case number is 138717.

The document that you quoted is not what the user gets on your website.

Going to mamiyaleaf website, then products, then leaf credo, the data sheet, you find this document: http://www.mamiyaleaf.com/assets/files/credo_DS_EN_A4_RGB_1.12_WEB.pdf

which declared Phase One 645AF is supported and mentions no restrictions.

So far you are sticking to the company line that the company did no wrong, so no surprises yet.

Hi Shlomi,

I wrote both documents and therefore am responsible for any errors or mistakes. When I make mistakes I tend to correct them and apologise when appropriate. I don't know any other way of working with customers.

The PDF I have quoted sits on our firmware download page and is available for users/ public:

The Brochure you are quoting from is a marketing piece and not a technical document. It is the same PDF that get printed and as such it only gets updated when there are real updates or changes (or errors) to be made. There is a long list of supported cameras on it and this is not the type of document where we can specify in detail the different configurations and specific limitations. Apparently your AF body has got a very old firmware version on it. The vast majority of bodies out there have already been updated at some point.

Any limitations, special instructions or notes are normally found in the Release Notes, User Manuals on in Knowledge Base articles on Phase One's website, such as this one.

Saying that, I'm working with support and with your local dealer to find the best and fastest solution for your situation. Updating firmware on older bodies is not as easy as on the DF and DF+ and it takes time and tools to be done. The camera then goes through a service check, clean etc. etc.

If you are considering the DF+ then you will gain a few small improvements over the DF when using the Credo on it, such as opening/ closing of the shutter when you go in/ out of Live View.

Kind regards,

Yair
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Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Mamiya Leaf |
e: ysh@leaf-photography.com | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | www.mamiyaleaf.com | yaya's blog
haplo602
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« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2014, 02:03:03 AM »
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Hi Shlomi,

I wrote both documents and therefore am responsible for any errors or mistakes. When I make mistakes I tend to correct them and apologise when appropriate. I don't know any other way of working with customers.

The PDF I have quoted sits on our firmware download page and is available for users/ public:

The Brochure you are quoting from is a marketing piece and not a technical document. It is the same PDF that get printed and as such it only gets updated when there are real updates or changes (or errors) to be made. There is a long list of supported cameras on it and this is not the type of document where we can specify in detail the different configurations and specific limitations. Apparently your AF body has got a very old firmware version on it. The vast majority of bodies out there have already been updated at some point.

Any limitations, special instructions or notes are normally found in the Release Notes, User Manuals on in Knowledge Base articles on Phase One's website, such as this one.

Saying that, I'm working with support and with your local dealer to find the best and fastest solution for your situation. Updating firmware on older bodies is not as easy as on the DF and DF+ and it takes time and tools to be done. The camera then goes through a service check, clean etc. etc.

If you are considering the DF+ then you will gain a few small improvements over the DF when using the Credo on it, such as opening/ closing of the shutter when you go in/ out of Live View.

Kind regards,

Yair

Hello Yair

While I do understand your point, it's the very same issue that OP is talking about. When you go to the back-in-question product page, can you easily find full compatibility information there ? That's the problem. Basicaly the product page is only marketing materials that try to hide any possible issues (behind broad terms) and you have to dig into specifics of a configuration that you can't know as an outside person.

I would expect to have links to those specific related documents right from the product page (i.e. a compatibility sheet with all supported combinations with details and UNSUPPORTED combinations as well). Maybe that's the case with the OP as well.

It is reasonable to expect that most people go through dealers that know the details, however not all of them do (not for the initial search anyway).
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sbernthal
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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2014, 02:13:52 AM »
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Hello Yair

While I do understand your point, it's the very same issue that OP is talking about. When you go to the back-in-question product page, can you easily find full compatibility information there ? That's the problem. Basicaly the product page is only marketing materials that try to hide any possible issues (behind broad terms) and you have to dig into specifics of a configuration that you can't know as an outside person.

I would expect to have links to those specific related documents right from the product page (i.e. a compatibility sheet with all supported combinations with details and UNSUPPORTED combinations as well). Maybe that's the case with the OP as well.

It is reasonable to expect that most people go through dealers that know the details, however not all of them do (not for the initial search anyway).

I think I understand what they're saying, and it's this: the company wants the customer to buy anything and everything from a licensed dealer, so that they can get their cut from each sale and service. If you make any other type of deal, such as buying from another photographer or from a non licensed dealer, they will make sure to charge you once you require their services, in a way that would make you rethink your original decision to try and save money by buying used or old stock. Moreover, the website is not like other companies websites, and contains merely descriptive recommendations and lyrical meanderings. If you want the hard truth, go to the licensed dealer and pay upfront for the proper service.
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torger
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2014, 02:20:29 AM »
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You cannot expect to get proper advice from the licensed dealer if you use "exotic" gear, the medium format space is so fragmented with different camera systems and use cases (the wide possibilities in terms of choice is actually why I like MF) that it's hard for a dealer to know about all combinations, especially here in Europe when the dealer may be just a single person which may run the dealership part-time.

I've been in contact with the local Hasselblad / Phase One dealer to ask about the CFV-50 on tech cams, and it was clear within minutes into the call that I knew more about this product and how it works with a tech camera than they did, despite I've never used the product. Instead they recommended the IQ250, which of course won't work with my lens lineup.

Asking on this forum and/or getdpi is by far the best support you can get on MF gear, at least in this part of the world.
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sbernthal
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« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2014, 02:38:42 AM »
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The only proper dealers I know are the two large American ones.
In smaller countries, Phase forces you to work with very low volume dealers who don't have the throughput to provide the level of assistance and expertise you expect. They just charge you the arm and the leg as per the Phase price list, but aren't able or interested to provide any value added for their commission.
That is why clients like me look for cheaper solutions, such as used or old stock equipment, which the company is not thrilled to support.
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tjv
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« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2014, 03:00:07 AM »
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This is 100% true where I live. I once rang the Hasselblad distributor directly (I work in an academic institution which has a buying contract with them) and asked about an H4D kit to purchase. The distributor told me they couldn't advise me on or even give a price for the product I was interested in because they had never seen one before (it had been on the market for six months), plus I'd have to wait a week or so for a price while they worked it out with Sweden! Suffice to say, there are no "reputable" dealers where I live either, of any brand. I'd rather import from a trusted source in the States, which would bring with it a whole raft of other problems, but at least I'd have a reliable point of contact and source of information.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2014, 03:01:55 AM by tjv » Logged
sbernthal
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« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2014, 06:09:33 AM »
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Referring to the original point of this thread - it seems there was a miscommunication between me and the company.
The back and body combination is in fact supported under some conditions, so the online documentation is not incorrect.

From my point of view when I opened the thread, the back and the body that were in my hands were not working together, but once I've received the proper bypass, they are now working.

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