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Author Topic: Sigma DP Quattro  (Read 34700 times)
MrSmith27
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« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2014, 10:04:26 AM »
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From the press release:
"Newly developed Foveon X3 Quattro direct image sensor / Now featuring 39 megapixel-equivalent ultrahigh resolution"

They call it a "Super High" mode.  It can deliver 39MP JPGs out of the camera.  I suppose their raw platform can deliver a 39MP TIF as well.

I agree with you though.  There are significant qualitative differences in the pixel level data between the Quattro and a bayer sensor, and sensors beyond.

[The use of the name Quattro probably irritates Audi just a little bit, though what can they do about it.  It's not an all-wheel drive camera.]

I understand Sigma. In a way Megapixels is THE number one metric for the general public. It's the number that gets reported and it's what most people use to form an opinion on a camera. Now pretending that a camera that produces 5424*3616 pixel images is 39 MP is bullshit, because actually it's 19 MP. At the same time these 19 MP images (if they are anything like the 15 MP images from the Merrill series) will be completely sharp even when viewed at 100%. In the Bayer-world that simply doesn't happen. You have a 19 MP image and then maybe if you are lucky you get something comparable sharp when you scale it down to 70% and run it through Photoshop.

Long story short: The metric is simply old.


« Last Edit: February 10, 2014, 10:05:59 AM by MrSmith27 » Logged
Pete_G
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« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2014, 10:21:18 AM »
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Hulyss,

It sounds like you are going to be an early adopter of the Quattro. Can we assume you'll post comparison images here when possible, i.e. DP2 Merrill v DP2 Quattro?
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LKaven
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« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2014, 10:27:09 AM »
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I understand Sigma. In a way Megapixels is THE number one metric for the general public. It's the number that gets reported and it's what most people use to form an opinion on a camera. Now pretending that a camera that produces 5424*3616 pixel images is 39 MP is bullshit, because actually it's 19 MP.

What would be the fact of the matter as to how many pixels the Quatto produces?  Bayer pixels are bogopixels as well, and the MTF of a bayer sensor suggests that they don't produce the number of pixels advertised.  At the same time, the Quattro might be entitled to advertise more than 19MP -- using Bayer pixels as a reference -- if one can produce from it a greater number of interpolated pixels having the necessary degree of (veridical) discrimination.
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Quentin
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« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2014, 10:46:53 AM »
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I was one of the earliest adopters of the current DPxM series.  One must assume that the new cameras improve on the old, otherwise what is the point?  Based on this reasonable assumption, count me in. The "old" models were superb in many ways; I cant wait for the new.
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Quentin Bargate, ARPS, Author, photographer entrepreneur and senior partner of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2013
The Ute
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« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2014, 11:02:08 AM »
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I was one of the earliest adopters of the current DPxM series.  One must assume that the new cameras improve on the old, otherwise what is the point?  Based on this reasonable assumption, count me in. The "old" models were superb in many ways; I cant wait for the new.

But improved how ?

If in all ways including image quality great.

What if they improved the battery life, processing speed, noise performance, etc. but the image quality suffers somehow ?

Guess we'll see. I am a little concerned about the color being relegated to lower MP's.

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MrSmith27
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« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2014, 11:07:15 AM »
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What would be the fact of the matter as to how many pixels the Quatto produces?  Bayer pixels are bogopixels as well, and the MTF of a bayer sensor suggests that they don't produce the number of pixels advertised.  At the same time, the Quattro might be entitled to advertise more than 19MP -- using Bayer pixels as a reference -- if one can produce from it a greater number of interpolated pixels having the necessary degree of (veridical) discrimination.

For me Megapixels are the actual raw output of the camera. That being said it's a metric which doesn't work well with Foveon because no matter what you pick it's either hyperbole (the DPXM did not have 45 Megapixel even though Sigma liked to say that) or an unfair understatement (the DPXQ will output pixels 19.1 Megapixels large but those will be much sharper than a 19.1 MP Bayer sensor). In the end it doesn't matter. We will get excellent image quality and Sigma will sell.... hundreds... of them.
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Pete_G
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« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2014, 11:11:54 AM »
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I was one of the earliest adopters of the current DPxM series.  One must assume that the new cameras improve on the old, otherwise what is the point?  Based on this reasonable assumption, count me in. The "old" models were superb in many ways; I cant wait for the new.

Sorry Quentin, I didn't see your earlier post. It was mainly your Merrill posts that excited me so much about these cameras.  Come to think of it, I think Hulyss sold his DP2M
anyway, so maybe we can see some comparisons from you?? :-)

I'm sure the camera will be significantly better, but my feelings are at the moment that I haven't had enough use from the Merrill to justify an upgrade this soon. I'll certainly be following the Quattro threads though.
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Hulyss
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« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2014, 11:32:11 AM »
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Hulyss,

It sounds like you are going to be an early adopter of the Quattro. Can we assume you'll post comparison images here when possible, i.e. DP2 Merrill v DP2 Quattro?

I will review it with an expert as soon as it hit SIGMA base in my country. Comparison with the DP2m and the DP2x (and A7r, for the PPers).
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uvl
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« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2014, 11:40:12 AM »
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I will review it with an expert as soon as it hit SIGMA base in my country. Comparison with the DP2m and the DP2x (and A7r, for the PPers).

Let me be that expert.
Uwe Grin
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Hulyss
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« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2014, 11:47:34 AM »
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Let me be that expert.
Uwe Grin

Naaa  Smiley That expert is specialist in Opto-Technic and have several decades of experience behind him Wink
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MrSmith
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« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2014, 11:55:15 AM »
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'ex' is the once was, 'spurt' is the drip under pressure.
just give it to a photographer and let the take pictures (no brick walls or charts)

 Wink
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RobSaecker
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« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2014, 12:24:42 PM »
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Could somebody with technical knowledge please shed some light on why they don't do exchangeable lenses?

They do: SD1.
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LKaven
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« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2014, 12:43:15 PM »
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They do: SD1.

Interchangeable lenses...in a compact, mirrorless body format...preferably about the same size as the existing fixed-lens units.  They must be thinking about it.
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Hulyss
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« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2014, 12:46:56 PM »
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'ex' is the once was, 'spurt' is the drip under pressure.
just give it to a photographer and let the take pictures (no brick walls or charts)

 Wink

I will be the photographer but now I will have an expert with me in case the camera propel me on Saturn.
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BJL
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« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2014, 01:17:55 PM »
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Though I am not sure how I feel about the "Quattro" layout of the blue pixels vs the green and red sub-layers. Typical Bayer arrays rely on the green channel for luminance while this Foveon Quattro will rely on a blue channel.
That does seem strange, but it helps to note that the Foveon style sensor does not really detect separate blue, green and red signals. It is a more complicated mix than that; something like:
top) lots of blue, some green, a little red
middle) lots of green; some blue and red
bottom) lots of red, some green a little blue
This has always made for greater demands on processing to reconstruct primary color signals.

So it will be interesting to see how well that "blue with some green and a little red" can be used as a proxy for luminance.
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The Ute
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« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2014, 01:24:07 PM »
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Another problem solved.

The new Quattro comes with a USB cable release.

Wink
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NancyP
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« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2014, 01:41:48 PM »
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Woo-hoo! Cable release, finally. No more setting to timer. Maybe the LCD screen is better as well. I am going to be very curious about the files from this Quattro, especially about the claims of increased dynamic range.

Now if they would do the simple stuff with the software - add "crop" and "rotate" for instance - let's hear it for a new version of SPP.
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The Ute
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« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2014, 01:49:15 PM »
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Woo-hoo! Cable release, finally. No more setting to timer. Maybe the LCD screen is better as well. I am going to be very curious about the files from this Quattro, especially about the claims of increased dynamic range.

Now if they would do the simple stuff with the software - add "crop" and "rotate" for instance - let's hear it for a new version of SPP.

In it's next life the Quattro needs to come with an EVF option, interchangeable lenses, and a FF sensor.

I'm not greedy am I ?

 Grin

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The Ute
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« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2014, 01:51:24 PM »
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Oh. And a better AF system.

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RobertJ
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« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2014, 03:26:27 PM »
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Is it true that this new sensor will be prone to moire, compared to the Merrill sensors, where moire isn't a problem?
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