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Author Topic: Sigma DP Quattro  (Read 35919 times)
BJL
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« Reply #160 on: February 19, 2014, 11:27:16 AM »
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It is possible to design a worst case scenario resolution target ...
Indeed, as you probably know, red/blue test charts are out there, and often cited by X3 advocates. There's one used in this document from Foveon: http://www.foveon1.com/files/FrequencyResponse.pdf
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #161 on: February 19, 2014, 12:13:48 PM »
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Indeed, as you probably know, red/blue test charts are out there, and often cited by X3 advocates. There's one used in this document from Foveon: http://www.foveon1.com/files/FrequencyResponse.pdf

Indeed, and in that paper mr. Hubel makes a rather suspect mistake by comparing a sensor with AA-filter with a Foveon sensor, just to increase the 'benefit' of a Foveon design. When one has to stoop that low to proof a point, something is wrong, and it is. Apples and oranges.

I also offer an alternative to my star target at the bottom of that same first post, a Red/Blue with almost same luminosity version of the star target, to specifically challenge a Bayer CFA type of sensor. Again, highly unlikely scenario having to resolve colors from two opposite ends of the spectrum with the same luminance, mainly offered for those interested in comparing to real life luminosity resolution dominated scenes.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: February 19, 2014, 12:20:09 PM by BartvanderWolf » Logged
em13
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« Reply #162 on: February 22, 2014, 01:08:55 AM »
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Assuming the Quattros release price will be about the same as when the Merrills were released ~$1000, any opinions on whether it is still a good deal to get the Merrill with prices dropping to ~$580? Or if waiting for the updated camera will be better. Thank you.
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #163 on: February 22, 2014, 01:38:47 AM »
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Indeed, and in that paper mr. Hubel makes a rather suspect mistake by comparing a sensor with AA-filter with a Foveon sensor, just to increase the 'benefit' of a Foveon design. When one has to stoop that low to proof a point, something is wrong, and it is. Apples and oranges.
how many cameras w/o AA filter (except MFDB) were in 2003 ?
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #164 on: February 22, 2014, 04:14:23 AM »
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how many cameras w/o AA filter (except MFDB) were in 2003 ?

Don't know exactly, but they have always been available in research and for astronomy, and by modifying existing sensors.

Besides that, not accounting for the difference in optical path (it's like using different apertures, or defocusing one lens) when trying to proclaim a benefit, is worse than sloppy science/research. Given the spirit at the time, it was plainly oriented at misleading people, and it apparently works till this day ...

The Hubel paper is presented looking as a research paper, but it was in fact a promotional piece by the stakeholder (which is fine, because they would have been grilled by the scientific community had they tried that route). They deliberately compared apples to oranges in an attempt to bridge the gap in megapixels (X3) that the camera produced. The Raw converter even had a 2x(?) upsample setting.

They also were doing cycles/mm SFR tests, conveniently not mentioning that the 10D sensor had some 35% more sensels per image height and would therefore require 35% less output magnification than the SD10 for same size output, thus reducing the benefits in the SD10 scores. That was another omission to make the Foveon technology look better versus competition. They also made sure to compare (MTF) response (vertical axis) at a given cy/mm (which always benefits a sensor without AA-filter) and not real resolution (horizontal axis) as defined in the ISO 12233 standard they used incompletely by not normalizing for sensor size nor sensor pitch.

Don't get me wrong, eliminating the risk of false color aliasing is a huge benefit, but don't think that therefore there is no aliasing at all (another false claim). There is, it's luminance aliasing, and is there because it's unavoidable in discretely sampled imaging (unless truly diffraction limited by optics). It's always there, so any claim that there isn't any is a red flag(!). It may be mild enough to be tolerable, but it is always there.

The luminance aliasing is much stronger without the use of an OLPF, but more tolerable in many cases because the luminance aliasing may sometimes look a bit like real detail, or look sharper than actual edges (like having built-in sharpening), and the overall MTF response is boosted which gives the images more punch. The drawback is that it also exaggerates stairstepping/jaggies on sharp high contrast edges and lines and produces false representations of surface structures. That can look a bit unnatural for the careful observer, but it's mainly visible in the exact plane of focus, so it might be remedied by shifting the focus a bit. These things are good to know in advance instead of finding out after the fact, which is why it helps to not ostracize the issues. Talking about them also allows to find solutions.

Cheers,
Bart
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MrSmith27
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« Reply #165 on: February 22, 2014, 07:09:09 AM »
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Assuming the Quattros release price will be about the same as when the Merrills were released ~$1000, any opinions on whether it is still a good deal to get the Merrill with prices dropping to ~$580? Or if waiting for the updated camera will be better. Thank you.

Very good idea: you get near middle format image quality for cheap point and shoot money
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Deadhumpy
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« Reply #166 on: March 02, 2014, 03:48:16 PM »
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Has anyone heard any rumors on potential release dates?
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The Ute
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« Reply #167 on: March 03, 2014, 09:48:28 AM »
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Imagine a mirrorless SD1 Quattro.

http://sigma-rumors.com/2014/03/sigma-cameras-lenses-rumors/
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MrSmith27
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« Reply #168 on: April 09, 2014, 12:07:29 PM »
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Any news?
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GrantO
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« Reply #169 on: June 12, 2014, 12:47:55 AM »
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Sample photos in the japan site. Apologies If this has been posted here before.
http://www.sigma-global.com/jp/cameras/dp-series/gallery/
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #170 on: June 12, 2014, 03:49:49 AM »
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Wow, this is simply amazing, the 2nd sample in particular. Clearly by far the best file I have ever seen. This reminds me of 150 mp pano images downsized to 20 megapixel.

Look at the way the detail of the feathers is rendered without any visible color artifacts or moire. This conveys a sense of reality that is truly breathtaking. The file also feels very clean, certainly cleaner than my DP2m files.

We would have to see prints to judge with certainty, but it certainly feels like it may be superior to the D800E and 40mp class digital backs with the very best lenses available (Zeiss Otus/Nikon 200mm f2.0/Rodenstock digital).

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 03:54:01 AM by BernardLanguillier » Logged

A few images online here!
eronald
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« Reply #171 on: June 12, 2014, 04:38:41 AM »
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Wow, this is simply amazing, the 2nd sample in particular. Clearly by far the best file I have ever seen. This reminds me of 150 mp pano images downsized to 20 megapixel.

Look at the way the detail of the feathers is rendered without any visible color artifacts or moire. This conveys a sense of reality that is truly breathtaking. The file also feels very clean, certainly cleaner than my DP2m files.

We would have to see prints to judge with certainty, but it certainly feels like it may be superior to the D800E and 40mp class digital backs with the very best lenses available (Zeiss Otus/Nikon 200mm f2.0/Rodenstock digital).

Cheers,
Bernard


I am surprised at the quality.  If this is representative, then Sigma are clearly ahead of the rest of the market by several years. The disparity in image quality is going to annoy the niche SLR makers a lot, and they will probably go to Sony and demand a Foveon-type sensor ASAP. Which Sony, rumors say, have already got in a drawer as they have been watching this little play unfold. The current  lenses may suffice, since the "real" resolution is actually lower than that of a Bayer sensor.

Interestingly, this is what insiders told me many years ago about Carver Mead's Foveon breakthrough: "The japanese big manufacturers will watch whether it really works, whether there are no legal issues, and for the software issues to be solved; they will let some small firm test the waters, and if it works out well, then they will all adopt it". It looks like Sigma played the pilot fish, whether by explicit agreement or not. Now the larger denizens of the sea may decide to come and play.  

Edmund
« Last Edit: June 12, 2014, 04:51:19 AM by eronald » Logged

Edmund Ronald, Ph.D. 
palpman
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« Reply #172 on: June 12, 2014, 05:26:39 AM »
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I don't know, there is something wrong with these samples. Detail is there, but look at the greenish noise all over the feathers. Could do better, let's wait for more samples.
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Misirlou
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« Reply #173 on: June 12, 2014, 10:19:05 AM »
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I bought a used DP2M back in October to check out Foveon for myself. It didn't take long for me to decide that I will not likely buy another high end camera with a Bayer sensor. The Merrills are awful cameras to use from an efficient workflow perspective, but you just can't argue with the results. Looks like the Quattros may be a whole level better still.
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Misirlou
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« Reply #174 on: June 12, 2014, 10:32:51 AM »
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Wow, this is simply amazing, the 2nd sample in particular. Clearly by far the best file I have ever seen. This reminds me of 150 mp pano images downsized to 20 megapixel.

Look at the way the detail of the feathers is rendered without any visible color artifacts or moire. This conveys a sense of reality that is truly breathtaking. The file also feels very clean, certainly cleaner than my DP2m files.

We would have to see prints to judge with certainty, but it certainly feels like it may be superior to the D800E and 40mp class digital backs with the very best lenses available (Zeiss Otus/Nikon 200mm f2.0/Rodenstock digital).

Cheers,
Bernard


What do you make of the assorted resolution figures there on the samples page? The birds are in the "high" raw resolution, but there appears to be a jpg only mode available that goes to an even higher spec.
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Farsh
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« Reply #175 on: June 12, 2014, 04:32:30 PM »
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Wow, this is simply amazing, the 2nd sample in particular. Clearly by far the best file I have ever seen. This reminds me of 150 mp pano images downsized to 20 megapixel.

Look at the way the detail of the feathers is rendered without any visible color artifacts or moire. This conveys a sense of reality that is truly breathtaking. The file also feels very clean, certainly cleaner than my DP2m files.

We would have to see prints to judge with certainty, but it certainly feels like it may be superior to the D800E and 40mp class digital backs with the very best lenses available (Zeiss Otus/Nikon 200mm f2.0/Rodenstock digital).

Cheers,
Bernard


http://www.sigma-photo.co.jp/english/camera/dp-feature/
not sure about D800E but seems to be superior to D800.
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #176 on: June 12, 2014, 07:40:24 PM »
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http://www.sigma-photo.co.jp/english/camera/dp-feature/
not sure about D800E but seems to be superior to D800.

Are you sure that the SLR image is coming from a D800?

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
Ed B
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« Reply #177 on: June 12, 2014, 09:54:00 PM »
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Are you sure that the SLR image is coming from a D800?

Cheers,
Bernard


Do we know it isn't a mirrorless camera?
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AlexRobinson
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« Reply #178 on: June 13, 2014, 02:02:24 AM »
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After buying a DP1M on a whim last year I've found myself using it almost exclusively. As soon as I saw the DP2 Quattro announced I rang the wholesaler and preordered one. An SD SLR model would almost tempt me back to DSLRs provided it implemented live view, even something akin to the Pentax K-01 (mirrorless but with a DSLR mount) would be cool—especially with the new range of Sigma art lenses finally being able to do justice to Sigma's sensors.
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BartvanderWolf
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« Reply #179 on: June 13, 2014, 02:44:14 AM »
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Are you sure that the SLR image is coming from a D800?

It's unknown, as is the lens used. These web comparisons are usually flawed in one way or another. A bit of post-processing, even on these JPEG crops, makes a world of difference, and can make either crop look better than the other.

The DP Quattro images do seem to look good at the ISOs I've seen results from. Of course, it requires more from a camera to make it suitable for a given task. Getting the shot to begin with, is likely to be more important than how the image looks under ideal circumstances.

Cheers,
Bart
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