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Author Topic: Making the jump to Medium Format - Newbie Questions  (Read 6767 times)
Paul2660
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« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2014, 08:55:11 PM »
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Can you still buy a P40+ new?  I thought it was replaced by the IQ140.

P40+ is the same generation as the P65+.  Terrible LCD, not good for any type of feedback.  Credo screen and all go the other features, would push me to a credo 40.


Paul C

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« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2014, 09:02:12 PM »
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Can you still buy a P40+ new?  I thought it was replaced by the IQ140.

P40+ is the same generation as the P65+.  Terrible LCD, not good for any type of feedback.  Credo screen and all go the other features, would push me to a credo 40.


Paul C




Yes, P40+ units can still be purchased new ($13,990). But since we've had pre-owned units with warranty for $8,500 - $9,500, I can't remember the last time I sold a new one. For that matter, P30+ can also be purchased new ($10,990). Same story there.


Steve Hendrix
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Steve Hendrix
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2014, 11:23:27 PM »
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Hi,

The dominant MF system would be Phasselblad and not Phamiya. Phase One would never dream of acquiring Mamiya.

Best regards
Erik


I am not so sure that this decision was "unwise". It seems that PhaseOne was actually manufacturing H backs at the time (mine sure says "Made in Denmark". I don't think that Hasselblad could have survived without that decision.

Just as an exercise: let me check one little thing with you. How many digital MF brands existed at the time? Which one of them survive today?
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nik
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« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2014, 12:43:22 AM »
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Steve,

Shooting tethered via a P1 back, can I microstep (focus) the H lenses on an H4X via live view in C1 v7.x ?

Thanks


Just the modest tweak, if you don't mind - If you plan on using any of the HCD lenses and you also want to shoot with a Leaf or Phase One digital back, then your only option is to purchase a Hasselblad H4X body. Otherwise, your option is to go all Hasselblad, as you stated.


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jerome_m
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« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2014, 12:57:06 AM »
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Thanks Steve. As said before I'm looking away from Hasselblad now because of the immense amount of other options I would have shooting a phase one body.

And you decide that from just a few messages on an Internet forum?

I mean: I have no commercial interest in Hasselblad or Phase One. I don't own any of their stock for example. What you chose does not matter to me. But what matters to me is the new phenomenon I see everywhere on the Internet where forums, which used to be places where one could find independent help, are slowly turning into something a lot less useful.

If you had asked your question in an ideal world, you would have had answers listing the advantages and disadvantages of the two competing systems. Then you would have chosen the system which is best suited to your particular needs. What you got in this thread was markedly different. Go back and read the thread from day one.
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yaya
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« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2014, 02:30:01 AM »
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Seth, first of all welcome aboard!

Second, as others suggested, there's a number of camera shops and dealers in your area that can help by letting you try or play with the kit, either a Credo DF+ combo, an Aptus-II 7/ 8, a P40+ or a Hasselblad. You should also have a go at each product's software to get a feel of the workflow (tethered and/ or untethered).

The internet is a great tool for many things and is loaded with useful information, but as Jerome says, forums are often subject to bias (naturally) and a small number of posters might not represent the real world.

Good hunting!

Yair
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2014, 08:14:29 AM »
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Steve,

Shooting tethered via a P1 back, can I microstep (focus) the H lenses on an H4X via live view in C1 v7.x ?

Thanks




No, that is only a capability that Phocus currently provides via H4D/H5D cameras. You can step focus with the Phase One IXR camera and C1 v7.


Steve Hendrix
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haplo602
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« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2014, 09:10:25 AM »
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I am not so sure that this decision was "unwise". It seems that PhaseOne was actually manufacturing H backs at the time (mine sure says "Made in Denmark". I don't think that Hasselblad could have survived without that decision.

Just as an exercise: let me check one little thing with you. How many digital MF brands existed at the time? Which one of them survive today?

That 'Made in Denmark' is because of Imacon, not Phase One.
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SethDAugust
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« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2014, 01:00:08 PM »
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Well to be fair, I did say "looking" not "choosing".

I have been speaking with a few sales people at 2 companies who are giving me more info on the Phase/Mamiya 645 systems and various backs and such. Ultimately I do need to likely narrow down which back I would like to consider and then rent a 645 and an H4D system and make my decision based upon that.

The point of me being here is to gather info and impressions in an effort to know what to look for when I do finally make a decision. If someone said the Hassleblad batteries crap out after a year of use - I wouldn't know that testing it for a few days so those are the kinds of things I'd like to be able to consider outside of which one feels like the right camera. I know I like how the Hasselblad feels - the ergonomics, and still need to test the 645DF+ to see how that feels.

No blindly buying based upon what anyone says is going to happen here - including people who sell them for a living.

Thanks.
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-Seth
jerome_m
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« Reply #49 on: February 20, 2014, 02:51:48 PM »
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Then, what I can say (beyond the fact that Hasselblad batteries apparently do not crap out after a year, since the one I use are a few years old...) is that you will not test the camera only. The software is just as important, especially for tethered use. Hasselblad uses Phocus, which is somewhat confusing at first, but allows a very powerful and efficient workflow. Phase One uses Capture One, which I don't know but has a good reputation. Try to attend to an afternoon demo of each one if you want to make an opinion on the two camera systems.

As I said, my opinion of the Hasselblad system is generally positive. For my needs, there is little it cannot do. There are very few frustrations or omissions in the overall system (camera, lenses, adapters, etc...). I can see that the workflow is designed for the needs of pro photographers (i.e. mainly portrait/fashion and product photography). Obviously, it lacks the conveniences of a 35mm system (e.g. highest iso, fast AF or 16-35 and 70-200 zoom...), but you should already know that. Probably the biggest annoyance for a pro is that all repairs happen in Sweden, so if your camera break it will take 3 weeks to be repaired, but I am not sure that Phase One... or Canon are much better here.

As to the workflow... Let me give you examples:

Landscape: the 28mm lens is excellent and the leaf shutter means you only need a relatively light tripod. OTOH, checking focus is difficult on my camera (but is easier on the H5D which has a better screen).

Architecture: not really a strong point if you need movements. The HTS is not the best choice. The backs can be used on a technical camera with an adapter with battery though.

Product: very good. The 120mm macro lens is very good (and the new version even better). The HTS is well adapted to that use, particularly with the 80mm or 50mm-II and macro adapter. Shooting tethered with Phocus is very good once you are used to the interface. You can focus using a surprisingly usable sort of live view.

Portrait/fashion: the cameras produce very pleasant skin colours and the lenses, especially the 100mm, 120, 150 and 210 have very nice bokeh and in-focus to out of focus transitions. The leaf shutter allows your flash to overpower the sun (if you have a fast flash, cheap strobe heads won't do).

As I said, I am pretty sure that the competition makes good cameras as well, and people using them will probably chime in. It is a question of what you need and what you want. For example: I tried a Sinar back as well. Compared to the Hasselblad, I found very convenient that it had its own battery inside, and that it could deliver jpegs. Its screen was much better and faster as well (but my Hasselblad back is old, newer are better on that point). OTOH, Sinar software could only control the back and not the camera at all and that is a big advantage of Phocus.
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SethDAugust
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« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2014, 03:22:21 PM »
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Thanks for the info.
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-Seth
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« Reply #51 on: February 20, 2014, 05:03:52 PM »
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Compared to the Hasselblad, I found very convenient that it had its own battery inside, and that it could deliver jpegs.

Just adding that the H5D does deliver jpegs as well.
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synn
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« Reply #52 on: February 20, 2014, 07:38:30 PM »
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so if your camera break it will take 3 weeks to be repaired, but I am not sure that Phase One... or Canon are much better here.

I am told by my dealer that minor repairs can be done locally.

Out of curiosity, how much better is the H5D's screen? I haven't seen one up close. Is it significantly better than the H4D screen?

One thing I really like about the Credo back is that if I shoot a portrait, zoom it at 100% on the eye and shoot another image with more or less the same framing, the next image will also show up 100% zoomed in on the same spot automatically. This saves time on the field. Do the blad backs do this?
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« Reply #53 on: February 20, 2014, 08:29:11 PM »
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I am not a pro, but I got an H3D-31 some time ago so maybe I can answer some of your questions.

First: as far as pixel count or sharpness is, the 31 mpix backs are not much better than a D800e. The H lenses are better than the Nikon lenses, not necessarily on pure sharpness but rather on the way they "draw" the subject. The differences are relatively small, though. If you want to make a difference, I would choose a 40 or 50 mpix back.

Second: all this only makes sense if you want to print big.

Third: 31 and 40 mpix backs (all brands) are not adapted to view or technical cameras but are twice as sensitive than other ccd backs. 31 and 40 mpix backs also use a smaller sensor than the rest.

Fourth: I don't think that mounting a H back on a Rollei 6008 or Mamiya 645 is possible (I am not sure), because the physical mount is different. But it does not make sense anyway, because the H is a better camera. Phase backs mount natively on Mamiya 645 cameras.

Five: For product photography, the Hasselblad HTS is probably more convenient than the Cambo. But you can use the H back on the Cambo, tethered.

Feel free to ask more questions as they come.


Jerome -

One note for accuracy. For MFD solutions that offer removable digital backs, only the 40MP sensor in the Hasselblad H4D/H5D provides additional sensitivity. Phase One and Leaf offer 40 megapixel options, but these are a completely different type of CCD that is less sensitive than the 31/40 megapixel Kodak sensors. However they are better optimized for using on movement-based cameras. To summarize:

*31 Megapixel Kodak Sensor - (with enhanced microlenses). Boosts sensitivity (roughly 2 stops), not ideal for use on movement-based view or technical cameras (more impacted by difficult to correct anomalies)
- Hasselblad H3D-31
- Hasselblad H3D-II 31
- Hasselblad H4D-31
- Phase One P30
- Phase One P30+

*40 Megapixel Kodak Sensor - (with enhanced microlenses). Boosts sensitivity (at least 2 stops), not ideal for use on movement-based view or technical cameras (more impacted by difficult to correct anomalies).
- Hasselblad H4D-40
- Hasselblad H5D-40

*40 Megapixel Dalsa Sensor - Standard MFD sensitivity (conservatively ISO 50-200), works well on movement-based view or technical cameras.
- Phase One P40+
- Phase One IQ140
- Leaf Aptus-II 8
- Leaf Credo 40


Steve Hendrix
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SethDAugust
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« Reply #54 on: February 20, 2014, 09:41:21 PM »
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Thank you Steve, that's great stuff to know!
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-Seth
jerome_m
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« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2014, 12:26:31 AM »
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Out of curiosity, how much better is the H5D's screen? I haven't seen one up close. Is it significantly better than the H4D screen?

I haven't seen a H5D screen close, but I suppose that they are similar. I know that the H5D is significantly faster when displaying pictures (zooming in or moving in a zoomed picture). The H3DII screens are poorer and the H3D screens are very small and quite bad.

One thing I really like about the Credo back is that if I shoot a portrait, zoom it at 100% on the eye and shoot another image with more or less the same framing, the next image will also show up 100% zoomed in on the same spot automatically. This saves time on the field. Do the blad backs do this?

I have been told that they do it slightly differently: because they know where you focussed from the true focus system, they will show you that part first. So it works even if you change the framing. (H4D and H5D only, the 3 do not have true focus).

Phase One and Leaf offer 40 megapixel options, but these are a completely different type of CCD that is less sensitive than the 31/40 megapixel Kodak sensors. However they are better optimized for using on movement-based cameras.

Thanks, I did not know that.


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eronald
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« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2014, 01:55:49 AM »
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My usual summary:

Phase has wonderful backs with the exceptionally good software C1, so the combination is especially powerful if you stay with their software. The Phase body is based on the old focal-plane shutter Mamiya 645, and not so modern in concept although there are now some leaf-shutter lenses. The focus points are very close to the center of the field, and the focus ability cannot match a dSLR.

Hasselblad have a more recently designed body, that has been improved again with a novel focus system (True Focus) that allows you to do accurate focus and recompose. Also they provide the ability to use a vertical finder eyepiece. All the Hassy lenses have leaf shutters. There is a perception that Hasselblad do not quite squeeze the last bit out of the sensor like Phase.

After this the differences depend on the back you are using and your exact application. Both of these manufacturers allow you to use the back independently on a tech camera. If you don't need that flexibility, then you might also look at the Leica S which is closer to a 35mm dSLR in ergonomics, and the Pentax 645D which is now being sold well under $10K, with a new model on the way.

Edmund
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haplo602
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« Reply #57 on: February 21, 2014, 02:08:13 AM »
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Well to be fair, I did say "looking" not "choosing".

I have been speaking with a few sales people at 2 companies who are giving me more info on the Phase/Mamiya 645 systems and various backs and such. Ultimately I do need to likely narrow down which back I would like to consider and then rent a 645 and an H4D system and make my decision based upon that.

The point of me being here is to gather info and impressions in an effort to know what to look for when I do finally make a decision. If someone said the Hassleblad batteries crap out after a year of use - I wouldn't know that testing it for a few days so those are the kinds of things I'd like to be able to consider outside of which one feels like the right camera. I know I like how the Hasselblad feels - the ergonomics, and still need to test the 645DF+ to see how that feels.

No blindly buying based upon what anyone says is going to happen here - including people who sell them for a living.

Thanks.

As far as ergonomics, I have no experience with Hasselblad H. I did handle a V body, Contax 645 and a Mamiya 645 DF. Both 645 bodies don't sit well in my hands. I hate the side dial on the Mamiya. While using only the main dial, the handling is fine. Nice huge thumb indent for supporting the body. However once the rear/side dial is needed, you have to shift your thumb out of the indent and the body starts to slip out of hand since it's heavy.

Viewfinders are nice and huge/bright, no complaints there. Also the controls are well mostly well placed.
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SethDAugust
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« Reply #58 on: February 21, 2014, 08:45:20 AM »
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Again, thanks for those replies. Still soaking up the info.


I have put my considerations into a spreadsheet and scored them based upon some important areas such as cost, level of newer technology, post processing ability and ergonomics.

Out of the 4 I am considering (H4D40 or 645DF+ with P40+, Leaf Credo 40 or Leaf Aptus II Cool I think I am only able to say I don't believe the Aptus II 8 is in the running anymore with the cost/benefit ratio being the lowest on the list. A P40+ would be my value buy and the Credo 40 would be my big spender investment buy with the Hass right in the middle.

I never thought picking a camera would be so damn hard. It just really seems like these cameras and systems are great in so many areas that the others lack that they make up for it in the end and it's a tie so just just flip a coin. If I was solely a product shooter, maybe the 645 options would be better but it seems like the Hass is better suited for portrait/fashion which is a good amount of what I do. I need a jack of all trades!

Hoping to have some time this weekend to really sit down and make a decision on at least a system to go with and then choose a back if that's necessary.
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« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2014, 08:53:10 AM »
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If I was solely a product shooter, maybe the 645 options would be better but it seems like the Hass is better suited for portrait/fashion which is a good amount of what I do. I need a jack of all trades!

Not sure what your criteria for making that statement is, but gear from both brands do really well for product and portraiture shooting.
Check out the gallery sections in the Hass site and the P1 & Mamiyaleaf sites. You'll see a healthy mix of great samples across genres.

My personal belief is that it all comes down to personal preferences. Not very unlike the Canon/ Nikon choice.
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