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Author Topic: DxO: The New Leica S test  (Read 11579 times)
bcooter
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« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2014, 05:36:12 PM »
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There's one other thing that keeps it from being "really appealing", that's the fact that it doesn't tether well.
For fashion/editorial work it's not a deal breaker, but it would be nice to have. So, if they could fix that I don't see anything holding it back from the professional market (advertising, editorial market).


My S2 tethers fine.   We're in prelight this week and set up the S2 and our Contax p30+, the S2 using leica image shuttle to lightroom, the P30+ using C1 V6.

The phase is slightly faster to view an image, especially on the first image, but after that they seem pretty even, though I'm not that concerned that a billion images come up on screen as we work.
I'm actually not concerned about shooting a billion images for this project, because we've been down that crunch road of quantity and it is not a money saving, or inspiring way to work and takes a lot of post work to fix issues that should have been attended to on set.

We also did the end of the world test, where you shoot, pull the cord, or the battery, intentionally mess things up and then see how long it takes to get up and running.

The S2 was easy, it picked back up and we kept shooting, so I don't see any issues so far.  I'll know more in a few days.

I can tell you that there is a different look with the S2 my phase backs compared to my Canons.    DXO is about numbers, maybe they're right or wrong, I personally don't care because in real world work I've seen much different results from scientific testing to the way I work in the world.

They trashed the Lecia m8 and mine shoots beautifully and the file is unique, but maybe that's just the way I work though I'm use to actually lighting an image and working around the "limitations" of file or camera and turning those limitations into a positive.

In fact that's what makes photography different than what we see with our eye, is the limitations of the "film", the lenses, the shooting rate and our personal style.    A lot of time the equipment we use has a lot to do with our personal style and obviously scientific testing won't take that into account.

In regards to a cmos S series or any camera, I'm good as long as it's pretty, but not good if it looks generic.   This is all personal preference, but the only cmos look I've ever liked was the original 1ds, the RED 1 and the olympus em-5, though I haven't used every camera ever made.

IMO

BC







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Ken R
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« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2014, 08:06:03 AM »
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My S2 tethers fine.   We're in prelight this week and set up the S2 and our Contax p30+, the S2 using leica image shuttle to lightroom, the P30+ using C1 V6.

The phase is slightly faster to view an image, especially on the first image, but after that they seem pretty even, though I'm not that concerned that a billion images come up on screen as we work.
I'm actually not concerned about shooting a billion images for this project, because we've been down that crunch road of quantity and it is not a money saving, or inspiring way to work and takes a lot of post work to fix issues that should have been attended to on set.

We also did the end of the world test, where you shoot, pull the cord, or the battery, intentionally mess things up and then see how long it takes to get up and running.

The S2 was easy, it picked back up and we kept shooting, so I don't see any issues so far.  I'll know more in a few days.

I can tell you that there is a different look with the S2 my phase backs compared to my Canons.    DXO is about numbers, maybe they're right or wrong, I personally don't care because in real world work I've seen much different results from scientific testing to the way I work in the world.

They trashed the Lecia m8 and mine shoots beautifully and the file is unique, but maybe that's just the way I work though I'm use to actually lighting an image and working around the "limitations" of file or camera and turning those limitations into a positive.

In fact that's what makes photography different than what we see with our eye, is the limitations of the "film", the lenses, the shooting rate and our personal style.    A lot of time the equipment we use has a lot to do with our personal style and obviously scientific testing won't take that into account.

In regards to a cmos S series or any camera, I'm good as long as it's pretty, but not good if it looks generic.   This is all personal preference, but the only cmos look I've ever liked was the original 1ds, the RED 1 and the olympus em-5, though I haven't used every camera ever made.

IMO

BC

I absolutely love the Leica LEMO / USB cable for tethering. The LEMO connector is better designed to stay put and to go through a LOT of plug/unplug cycles before it starts to get loose and the cable is not that thick and very flexible. I do not really like using the heavy FW800 cable on my phase but their FW800 receptacle in the back is the best implementation of FW800 I have seen. It just will not come loose by accident.

Tethering with the phase is superb due to the software, both on the Mac (C1P7) and on the iPad (CPilot). The workflow with clients is just superb.

I have played with Red One and Red One MX files and they are superb. I did not love the highlight rendition in some cases but the files were deep.

I have yet to try the new Olympus M43 cameras. Would love to though. Might pick one up in the near future.
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ndevlin
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« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2014, 08:40:47 AM »
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Some people find comfort for their buying decisions in DxO, others find consolation for their inability to buy. Others still think it's about the silliest exercise in photography today.

- N.
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Nick Devlin   @onelittlecamera
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« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2014, 09:03:06 AM »
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I have yet to see my D800E's advantage of 2 stops for DR or colour with respect to 5Dmkiii….  Huh I wonder what they smoke in DXO….  Angry As with their findings with MF sensors (that compare with some compacts in their findings), ….it looks like they have find the testing method which proves that Sun sets at the east!  Shocked

It was an easy test for me.  I took a standard outdoor scene at base iso in mixed lighting.  I wanted to expose for the highlights, thus, I underexposed the shadows by around 1.5 stops.  I was using a 5D MKIII, with the 16-35 and the D800 with a 14-24.  Both cameras at base iso, (this is where Dx0 is testing I believe).

Results were that the Canon could not pull hardly any usable shadow detail without showing banding and Canon Red/blue blotches.  The Nikon D800 was clean and the file look very good.  Both cameras had good highlights as I had exposed for them.  There is no real mystery about this, it was so clear in both the Fred Miranda review that came about way back in Feb 2012 and the review that was posted on Lula by Michael (I believe).  The Lula review showed books in a medium lit room and clearly just how well the details were recovered.  Fred's review showed a hotel front, where a the entrance was in total shade.  He pulled up both a 5D MKIII and Nikon D800, and the results were pretty impressive, the Nikon showing very little noise again.  This to me is al lthe DxO mark test shows basically the total range I can take a single raw file.  Both of these tests were well documented on the web, I am sure the LuLa review is still there, not sure about Fred's.  However I have great respect for Fred's photography and his reviews/techniques. 

Their scores for the Phase One P45+ at 79 to me are exactly correct.  The P45+ was very hard to use in a mixed outdoor lighting situation.  If you exposed for the highlights, then your shadows were detail-less and not worth recovery and if the shadows were exposed for, then your high lights were always totally blown out.  The Canon 6D will do better than the 5D MKIII in the shadows, as the noise does not have the extreme red/blue blotches, instead taking on a more grain like appearance.  I still own and use the 6D for about 1/2 of my night photography.  These results also tie right back to the Dx0 score on both cameras.  Eric showed this again with his P45+ testing. 

This has also come out again with the IQ250/IQ260 testing that DT did, just look at one of the raws where the camera has shifted at all, and try to recover the shadows from the IQ260, it's nothing but pure noise, where as the IQ250 is showing amazing amounts of detail recovery.  Enough to see the fact that the large partiion on the left side of the frame is fabric covered and you can see the details of the fabric with shadow recovery.  This to me is DR, the range that you can take a single file. 

This what Dx0 also is implying I believe with their tests.  Color is anyone's guess and technique.  Everyone's setup is different and they have their own ways to work with it.  The ability to adjust a single file as much as 2.75 stops of exposure without loss of detail is an impressive feat. 

It's easy to exposure bracket a Canon 35mm camera and get excellent results, however it's more work than I want to do since I can get an excellent result from a single D800 file 98% of the time. 

Paul C.
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Paul Caldwell
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eronald
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« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2014, 09:06:56 AM »
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Some people find comfort for their buying decisions in DxO, others find consolation for their inability to buy. Others still think it's about the silliest exercise in photography today.

- N.

The DxO measurements show that the cameras are working; but one has to realize that the manufacturers cooperate with DxO to *publish* only a description of an ideal sensor - stuff like sensor defects, colorshading, pattern noise, vignetting, etc gets swept under the carpet.

Also, reducing a camera to a sensor is like reducing a car to an engine: It will run only if you add a drivetrain and wheels (lenses, shutter), and a steering wheel and seats (AF, controls) may be useful too.

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 11:33:08 AM by eronald » Logged

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robert zimmerman
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« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2014, 12:46:31 PM »
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My S2 tethers fine.   We're in prelight this week and set up the S2 and our Contax p30+, the S2 using leica image shuttle to lightroom, the P30+ using C1 V6.

The phase is slightly faster to view an image, especially on the first image, but after that they seem pretty even, though I'm not that concerned that a billion images come up on screen as we work.
I'm actually not concerned about shooting a billion images for this project, because we've been down that crunch road of quantity and it is not a money saving, or inspiring way to work and takes a lot of post work to fix issues that should have been attended to on set.

We also did the end of the world test, where you shoot, pull the cord, or the battery, intentionally mess things up and then see how long it takes to get up and running.

The S2 was easy, it picked back up and we kept shooting, so I don't see any issues so far.  I'll know more in a few days.

I can tell you that there is a different look with the S2 my phase backs compared to my Canons.    DXO is about numbers, maybe they're right or wrong, I personally don't care because in real world work I've seen much different results from scientific testing to the way I work in the world.

They trashed the Lecia m8 and mine shoots beautifully and the file is unique, but maybe that's just the way I work though I'm use to actually lighting an image and working around the "limitations" of file or camera and turning those limitations into a positive.

In fact that's what makes photography different than what we see with our eye, is the limitations of the "film", the lenses, the shooting rate and our personal style.    A lot of time the equipment we use has a lot to do with our personal style and obviously scientific testing won't take that into account.

In regards to a cmos S series or any camera, I'm good as long as it's pretty, but not good if it looks generic.   This is all personal preference, but the only cmos look I've ever liked was the original 1ds, the RED 1 and the olympus em-5, though I haven't used every camera ever made.

IMO

BC


Good to hear.
The last time I tried, it was much slower than my Phase to Capture and I had some issues with the connection.
But that was a while back and hey, sometimes things get better.
Me being a Leaf Capture and Phocus surviver just makes me very wary about software…
The camera itself is wet dream, that's for sure.
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BJL
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« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2014, 01:02:56 PM »
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Perhaps the CCD vs. CMOS has something to do with the different look of the images, I cannot know this for sure.
...
The lenses are heavy. ...
With the S2's big and excellent lenses and bigger sensor, with the inherent optical and electronic advantages of using a longer focal length to form a larger image on a larger sensor with more photo sites, and with photons gathered at a faster rate at a given same f-stop, and more photons in total gathered at the same exposure index (ambiguously called "ISO"), I see plenty of well-understood reasons to expect that the S2 gives better image quality than the smaller and far cheaper lens and sensor alternatives you compare to. I do not to see why so many people look to the use of the older CCD technology that most camera makers formerly used but have since abandoned as a significant cause. [CMOS active pixel sensors in "SLR" sizes are not cheaper than CCDs when produced at equal volumes, and indeed the common pattern was for CMOS sensor models to come in at higher prices than the CCD models from the same maker in the same format size, so "cheapness" is probably not why most DSLR makers have abandoned CCDs.]
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 03:18:46 PM by BJL » Logged
ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2014, 02:52:17 PM »
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Hi,

DxO Mark just measures the capability of the sensor to render images. And images seem to matter little to photographers it seems.

It's a bit like time keepers, you can have a plastic Casio with 30 features, a solar powered Citizen in titanium, a stainless steel Seiko, a Rolex  and one of those cheapy clocks syncing to AM radio for atomic time. The last ones are probably the best time keepers. If you need a watch for something else than keeping time, take any of the others.

Regarding the Leica I think it is a fine camera. I don't like DxO mark as a merit of figure, but their data is basically sound. The problem with DxO-mark is that they mix everything in a figure of merit. Like, I never use high ISO. Why would I care about it?! The other thing is that DxO-mark measures essentially noise, low noise gives high DxO figures. But most cameras are good enough and once they are good enough, differences matter little.

Best regards
Erik

Some people find comfort for their buying decisions in DxO, others find consolation for their inability to buy. Others still think it's about the silliest exercise in photography today.

- N.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 02:58:04 PM by ErikKaffehr » Logged

PaulT
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« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2014, 03:08:55 PM »
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For Landscape it maybe the only camera you want. If your landscapes involve sandstorms in Namibia on Hell's Highway or sleet and freezing rain in Iceland or Antarctica, being able to walk around with your camera hanging off your shoulder unprotected and know it will keep on working can be a plus for some.



PaulT
http://www.paultornaquindici.com
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BJL
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« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2014, 03:35:01 PM »
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Hi,

DxO Mark just measures the capability of the sensor to render images. ... I don't like DxO mark as a merit of figure, but their data is basically sound. The problem with DxO-mark is that they mix everything in a figure of merit. Like, I never use high ISO. Why would I care about it?!
Agreed: many people love rendering a multidimensional assessment into a single number, and it is usually nonsense --- like a "car excellence score" that weighs every car on measures including ability to transport my five imaginary children, haul my imaginary two-ton boat, or win my imaginary drag races.  It could be fun to have a "personal score widget", where one could choose the relative weights to apply to the various raw data. But realistically, I just look at the numbers from various sources that matter somewhat to me, interpret them relative to my objectives ... and then find out all I can about how a camera handles, which has become more and more decisive in my gear choices over the years as the IQ differences diminish.
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eronald
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« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2014, 06:46:47 PM »
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But ... if a device needs to be rendered to a single number, the number is already there - The price!

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2014, 12:06:46 AM »
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Yes,

Of course, in a free market economy price and value are tightly connected.

Best regards
Erik


But ... if a device needs to be rendered to a single number, the number is already there - The price!

Edmund
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Ken R
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« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2014, 05:19:27 PM »
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Looks like DXo has been keeping busy. They tested the RED EPIC Dragon. Beat every other sensor they have ever tested. WOW.

LINK

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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2014, 05:43:34 PM »
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Hi,

Quite impressive, especially as the sensor is pretty small! DxO has not published all the data yet, but it seems impressive for sure! Just asking how they could achieve it? A breaktrough?!

Best regards
Erik

Looks like DXo has been keeping busy. They tested the RED EPIC Dragon. Beat every other sensor they have ever tested. WOW.

LINK


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bcooter
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« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2014, 05:49:41 PM »
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Looks like DXo has been keeping busy. They tested the RED EPIC Dragon. Beat every other sensor they have ever tested. WOW.

LINK



The X sensor in my R1's and Scalet has more latitude than my still cameras.  

We use to use it with continuous light as a kind of running polaroid to prelight, but it covered too much territory, so I had to modify my brain if I was shooting stills and Reds.

You just don't want to overexpose because like most digital light flare, or blown out windows, sky can get kind of strange with that magenta cast, but that's more digital than it is camera make/brand.

In regards to the Leica, setting up in prelight we ran two systems the Leica and my Contax Phase.

Honestly, they work virtually identical.  Slightly different knob placement and I like the look out of camera of the Leica a little better, but in regards to focus, focus lock, handling, tethering, Shooting, they feel like their made from the same company, except obviously the Leica is newer and my prep time in cleaning contacts and prepping the leica vs. the contax is much less.

It's pretty amazing that a 7/8 year old digital backs and 10 year old camera system works as well as a virtually new one.

That's why I say price in the long game isn't an issue as long as you use the equipment and you don't get caught up in changing things every week.

In regards to small sensors, this is from a motion shoot with some pickup stills.  These were first "polaroids comparing the cameras on set) Bottom image is from a 1dx, Top image from an olympus em-5.



With the olympus I didn't pull any slider to get some outside of the window detail, with the 1dx the windows were blown, so sensor size (depending on camera)  isn't everything for every project.



IMO

BC
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 06:55:38 PM by bcooter » Logged

rsmphoto
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« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2014, 12:06:23 PM »
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My S2 tethers fine.   We're in prelight this week and set up the S2 and our Contax p30+, the S2 using leica image shuttle to lightroom, the P30+ using C1 V6.

The phase is slightly faster to view an image, especially on the first image, but after that they seem pretty even, though I'm not that concerned that a billion images come up on screen as we work.
I'm actually not concerned about shooting a billion images for this project, because we've been down that crunch road of quantity and it is not a money saving, or inspiring way to work and takes a lot of post work to fix issues that should have been attended to on set.

We also did the end of the world test, where you shoot, pull the cord, or the battery, intentionally mess things up and then see how long it takes to get up and running.

The S2 was easy, it picked back up and we kept shooting, so I don't see any issues so far.  I'll know more in a few days.

I can tell you that there is a different look with the S2 my phase backs compared to my Canons.    DXO is about numbers, maybe they're right or wrong, I personally don't care because in real world work I've seen much different results from scientific testing to the way I work in the world.

They trashed the Lecia m8 and mine shoots beautifully and the file is unique, but maybe that's just the way I work though I'm use to actually lighting an image and working around the "limitations" of file or camera and turning those limitations into a positive.

In fact that's what makes photography different than what we see with our eye, is the limitations of the "film", the lenses, the shooting rate and our personal style.    A lot of time the equipment we use has a lot to do with our personal style and obviously scientific testing won't take that into account.

In regards to a cmos S series or any camera, I'm good as long as it's pretty, but not good if it looks generic.   This is all personal preference, but the only cmos look I've ever liked was the original 1ds, the RED 1 and the olympus em-5, though I haven't used every camera ever made.

IMO

BC

And this from our buddy Joel... with the caveat that it sounds like he gets his cameras free (at least for a period of time) from Leica it seems.

http://vimeo.com/88014431
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 12:08:49 PM by rsmphoto » Logged
Rob C
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« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2014, 01:09:44 PM »
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And this from our buddy Joel... with the caveat that it sounds like he gets his cameras free (at least for a period of time) from Leica it seems.

http://vimeo.com/88014431




Yes, but my head doesn't buy what my heart thinks is going down.

In the circumstances, what else would anyone be likely to say - make a plug for Nikon?

;-)

Rob C
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Manoli
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« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2014, 02:32:04 PM »
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In the circumstances, what else would anyone be likely to say - make a plug for Nikon?

Sad, really, to see respected names from the past resorting to this sort of crap. At least we now know that you can't tell the difference between a 10x8 view camera and the Leica S in a 2m tall print! Let's see what the large format guys make of that (and perhaps someone could pass the message on to the likes of Andreas Gursky and Gregory Crewdson).

I suppose we'll have Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi explaining soon how they would never have scored those goals if it wasn't for Adidas and Nike. Or, perhaps David Beckham doing a retrospective and letting us all know that the secret to his success was all due to Calvin Klein underwear.

At least I'll know the world has stopped turning when I see BC, clutching a Nikon D66xx, in front of camera and telling us all how his career would never have happened if it hadn't been for Nikon ...
-

Disclaimer: [LHQ - light hearted quip]
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« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2014, 03:15:07 PM »
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So it scored 76?
Must be a crap camera then, RED have a camera that scores 100! That's right folks ONE HUNDRED.
 Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes
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rsmphoto
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« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2014, 03:58:37 PM »
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Yes, but my head doesn't buy what my heart thinks is going down.

In the circumstances, what else would anyone be likely to say - make a plug for Nikon?

;-)

Rob C

Indeed, it's merely an ad.
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