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Author Topic: DxO: The New Leica S test  (Read 12946 times)
KLaban
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« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2014, 04:02:00 PM »
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So it scored 76?
Must be a crap camera then, RED have a camera that scores 100! That's right folks ONE HUNDRED.
 Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes  Roll Eyes

Hey, it seems the M9 scored a measly soixante-neuf.

It really sucks.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2014, 04:08:39 PM by KLaban » Logged

bcooter
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« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2014, 04:09:25 PM »
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In the circumstances, what else would anyone be likely to say - make a plug for Nikon?



Rob C


If he uses a Nikon . . . yes.

There is nothing wrong with saying the S series works for a lot of stuff, but let's face it I'm not going to shoot 5fps street photography with it.

It's a different machine made for a certain genre.   Nothing wrong with that.

What is wrong is this type of endorsement rings false, it makes me want to never buy a camera.

Interviews where the photographer is sitting at a table with three cameras in front of him/her rings false and Leica doesn't need this to sell cameras.

I expect any minute for these guys to break into infomercial speak, with a flashing RED super that says, "but wait there's more".

In marketing and branding  building trust takes time and is hard.  You have to make great products or services, follow up, keep your levels high.

Losing trust is almost impossible to repair.   Holding a little leica and saying the other big leica shoots like 8x10 film makes me  hit command w on the keyboard.

Camera companies are never going to get it and obviously never gonna stop doing it.

They constantly use people that haven't shot a gig in 5 years and get them to praise stuff they don't really use at the same level they use to work in.

I've done it with one camera company and it made my stomach hurt.  I don't mind telling about what I use, what I like, what I don't like and of everything I own there are huge plusses that come with every system,  with huge minuses.

Also if I shoot something I love, I usually THEN love the camera, if I shoot c__p THEN I don't like the camera.

I think whoever put's their name on this stuff should take a breath and think about the guy/girl that is on Amazon and spending their only fun money for something they think will do what it won't.     

As a friend of mine says.   The truth is complicated, but it's easy to remember.

IMO

BC
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BernardLanguillier
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« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2014, 09:40:09 PM »
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At least we now know that you can't tell the difference between a 10x8 view camera and the Leica S in a 2m tall print! Let's see what the large format guys make of that (and perhaps someone could pass the message on to the likes of Andreas Gursky and Gregory Crewdson).

He says 1.5m and is pretty careful in his choice of words, didn't explicitely that it was the same scene,... that may have played as well.

Now, with a great lens on the S, and average one on the 8x10, scanning,... the difference in a 1.5m print is probably not night and day. I have seen 2m high prints from an Olympus OMD-5 that were drop from your chair good.

So yes, he is of course most probably getting paid by Leica for his testimony, but it doesn't necessarily mean he is lying about this episode.

Cheers,
Bernard
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A few images online here!
bcooter
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« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2014, 02:56:32 PM »
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He says 1.5m and is pretty careful in his choice of words, didn't explicitely that it was the same scene,... that may have played as well.

Now, with a great lens on the S, and average one on the 8x10, scanning,... the difference in a 1.5m print is probably not night and day. I have seen 2m high prints from an Olympus OMD-5 that were drop from your chair good.

So yes, he is of course most probably getting paid by Leica for his testimony, but it doesn't necessarily mean he is lying about this episode.

Cheers,
Bernard



It's not the facts, it's not the photographer  (hey a gigs a gig) it's the delivery.

If someone actually uses the camera it has weight, if they only tried it, then it's just a advertising review.

If it comes across as a sales pitch, then it loses validity.

If they actually buy it, then the value of the message goes up.

When Michael does a review, he doesn't fixate on charts or figures, talks about use, usually shows images and tells his opinion warts and all.

Rarely do you get the impression that Michael is a fan boy or handed a list of what to say and most importantly when he likes something he actually purchases it.

I recently viewed a UK video on the Panasonic gh4 4k camera.   The Panasonic Rep didn't side step or just pitch the camera.  He ran down the list answered hard questions.

I actually learned more from that 2 minutes video on the gh4 than I would in reading twenty pages of blogs.

IMO

BC
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Chris Barrett
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« Reply #44 on: March 06, 2014, 07:30:52 PM »
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If you believe DxO, the new RED Dragon sensor wipes the floor with every other digital capture device.  Whatev's
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ErikKaffehr
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« Reply #45 on: March 06, 2014, 11:07:46 PM »
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Hi,

Regarding DR and noise related stuff that is what DxO-mark measures and seem to measure well. DxO also tests lenses and those tests are probably quite relevant, but I don't think they test MF lenses.

Best regards
Erik

If you believe DxO, the new RED Dragon sensor wipes the floor with every other digital capture device.  Whatev's
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eronald
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« Reply #46 on: March 07, 2014, 10:18:52 AM »
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Hi,

Regarding DR and noise related stuff that is what DxO-mark measures and seem to measure well. DxO also tests lenses and those tests are probably quite relevant, but I don't think they test MF lenses.

Best regards
Erik


Yes, it is unbelievable how well the DxO camera tests correlate with real world experience.
I'm a bit sceptical of their type of lens test, especially since any such will max out whenever the lens outresolves the sesnor.

Edmund
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Theodoros
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« Reply #47 on: March 10, 2014, 02:55:14 PM »
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One must seriously consider what they smoke in DXO   Grin Despite all the web posts with D4S vs. D4 high ISO comparison which shows significant further improvement for the new model, they not only found no improvement at all,   Tongue but also found it considerably worst than DF, which they claim is clearly better than D4. (they are the same - I've checked that myself).  Huh

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D4s-versus-Nikon-Df-versus-Nikon-D4___945_925_767
« Last Edit: March 10, 2014, 02:56:51 PM by T.Dascalos » Logged
BJL
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« Reply #48 on: March 10, 2014, 03:06:26 PM »
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Despite all the web posts with D4S vs. D4 high ISO comparison which shows significant further improvement for the new model, they not only found no improvement at all,   Tongue but also found it considerably worst than DF, which they claim is clearly better than D4. (they are the same - I've checked that myself).  Huh

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D4s-versus-Nikon-Df-versus-Nikon-D4___945_925_767
The DXO "sports (low-light ISO)" seems to be the exposure index at which the mid-tone SNR is about 30dB, around EI=3200, whereas the DXO graphs show the D4s only gaining its advantage over the D4 and Df at even higher EI levels of 51,200 and up. At what EI settings did you compare and see an advantage to the D4s?
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Theodoros
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« Reply #49 on: March 10, 2014, 03:39:00 PM »
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The DXO "sports (low-light ISO)" seems to be the exposure index at which the mid-tone SNR is about 30dB, around EI=3200, whereas the DXO graphs show the D4s only gaining its advantage over the D4 and Df at even higher EI levels of 51,200 and up. At what EI settings did you compare and see an advantage to the D4s?
When did I say that I've compared D4 with D4S? I compared my D4 with a (recently bought) friend's DF they are exactly the same.
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Ken R
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« Reply #50 on: March 10, 2014, 06:44:10 PM »
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One must seriously consider what they smoke in DXO   Grin Despite all the web posts with D4S vs. D4 high ISO comparison which shows significant further improvement for the new model, they not only found no improvement at all,   Tongue but also found it considerably worst than DF, which they claim is clearly better than D4. (they are the same - I've checked that myself).  Huh

http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D4s-versus-Nikon-Df-versus-Nikon-D4___945_925_767

All three look to be very close to each other. It's probably just sample variation. Not much difference at all between them in the tests.
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BJL
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« Reply #51 on: March 10, 2014, 07:00:46 PM »
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When did I say that I've compared D4 with D4S? I compared my D4 with a (recently bought) friend's DF they are exactly the same.
It does seem quite possible that the measured D4 vs Df differences are either within sample variance or not enough to be visibly significant: that is a hazard of presenting measurements without either error bars or practical context.

But I was thinking more of your comment about "all the web posts with D4S vs. D4 high ISO comparison which shows significant further improvement for the new model", on the assumption that you were commenting on examples that out have seen in those posts. So, what I am trying to ask is at what EI (so-called "ISO") values is this D4s advantage being seen?
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bcooter
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« Reply #52 on: March 10, 2014, 10:12:36 PM »
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FYI

Today worked with the S2 on set.

Great camera, focuses well, not dslr like, but the Leica 120 is pretty, the file is very nice.

In the process when we changed sets, did a little quick test.

Shot our p30+ on my contax with the 140 zeiss. and for grins did about 25 frames on the olympus em-1 and the em-5 with the 75mm oly lens.

Now these are widely different cameras and format sizes.

Result.

the S2 is pretty does everything well, running to a hot folder on Lightroom.  It takes about 3 to 4 seconds an image for the frame to come up (applying settings in lightroom) running the last 17" macbook pro with thunderbolt, a 27" monitor, the Leica tethered through usb 2.
iso 360, using hmi lighting.

The Contax, almost identical in file quality to the S2.  In fact I can't tell a difference in regards to sharpness and detail compared to the S2.   The difference is running the p30+ to C1 v6 using fw 800 the full preview is almost instant, with adjustment settings.
iso 400 using hmi lighting

The focus is identical to the S2, though just a little faster, a little more precise and no hunting where the S2 did some hunting.  The tethering speed in C-1 is just mind blowing fast.

The Olympus em-1.  I won't use this for the whole project because it won't tether, but the color and look is almost identical to the phase one.  Obviously less detail but only about 25% less at the most. Nice file, fast buffering and instant focus.  The focus is just crazy fast on this camera.
iso 400 using hmi lighting.

The Olympus em-5.   Once again I won't use this for the whole project because of tethering but the look of this file is way different than the other three.  It has more nose but it's grain like noise, sharpness detail slightly less then the em-1, same with the p30+ and S2.
iso 400, using hmi lighting.
Now the look of the file.  180 degrees from the other cameras.  Crazy film like, I mean if this was scanned 35mm file you'd say uh yea, sure.
I can make all of these camera files look good, but the em-5 just blew us all away.  I mean everyone including the AD that said, wow that is cool, which camera did you use  . . . the leica.  I said no this little one and he said oh come one.

My point?

These are different cameras, costs widely different numbers, all have a place but on set, in controlled conditions, any of the 4 will work more than professionally.

The p30+ just is insane that it's 8 years old, on a body and lens that is out of production and it easily equals the S2.   The only difference is it's larger, heavier and requires two sets of batteries, plus the lcd is less than good, but anyone that thinks medium format is over priced hasn't used a digital camera like this for 7 years.    That averages about $4,700 per year.    

The em1 is by far the best shooting of the four.  Focus is instant, always sharp, always obvious and the file is professional but not much different in look of the two medium format cameras.  It just lacks some detail in comparison.

The em-5. This is a commercial project, but the em-5 is art.   I don't know what olympus did to that sony sensor, but man if they made it larger with the build quality of the em-1  and could tether, they'd own the world.  

FWIW we only did 5 frames with the Canon 1dx, just to make sure everything was running well and since we had a heavy day, I really couldn't compared cameras.  I did all these quick tests in minutes.
But honestly the 1dx didn't shoot 1 bit better than the olympus either one.

So my real point?

Use what you like and don't worry about dxo, pixel peeping, or anything that gets in the way of your photography it, because all of these cameras are very good.

My third point.  Why didn't Sony (since they work with olympus), come out with the 5 axis stabilization and why not ask the olympus guys how they got the look of the em-5 sensor out of the a sony sensor?


IMO

BC
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Atina
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« Reply #53 on: March 11, 2014, 07:14:26 AM »
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Sad, really, to see respected names from the past resorting to this sort of crap. At least we now know that you can't tell the difference between a 10x8 view camera and the Leica S in a 2m tall print! Let's see what the large format guys make of that (and perhaps someone could pass the message on to the likes of Andreas Gursky and Gregory Crewdson).


Has Gursky transitioned from Linhof to Hasselblad for his work?

What does Gregory Crewdson using for his work these days?
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eronald
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« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2014, 08:01:20 PM »
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J,

 Thx for the experience report -
 BTW, its seems the EM1 has a Panasonic chip, which they seem to have been the lead customer for but which I expect to migrate to everything Pana including the next pocket rocket (GM2?).
 My take from your note: Every prosumer camera is now "professional". It's all in the head, eyes.

Edmund

 

FYI

Today worked with the S2 on set.

Great camera, focuses well, not dslr like, but the Leica 120 is pretty, the file is very nice.

In the process when we changed sets, did a little quick test.

Shot our p30+ on my contax with the 140 zeiss. and for grins did about 25 frames on the olympus em-1 and the em-5 with the 75mm oly lens.

Now these are widely different cameras and format sizes.

Result.

the S2 is pretty does everything well, running to a hot folder on Lightroom.  It takes about 3 to 4 seconds an image for the frame to come up (applying settings in lightroom) running the last 17" macbook pro with thunderbolt, a 27" monitor, the Leica tethered through usb 2.
iso 360, using hmi lighting.

The Contax, almost identical in file quality to the S2.  In fact I can't tell a difference in regards to sharpness and detail compared to the S2.   The difference is running the p30+ to C1 v6 using fw 800 the full preview is almost instant, with adjustment settings.
iso 400 using hmi lighting

The focus is identical to the S2, though just a little faster, a little more precise and no hunting where the S2 did some hunting.  The tethering speed in C-1 is just mind blowing fast.

The Olympus em-1.  I won't use this for the whole project because it won't tether, but the color and look is almost identical to the phase one.  Obviously less detail but only about 25% less at the most. Nice file, fast buffering and instant focus.  The focus is just crazy fast on this camera.
iso 400 using hmi lighting.

The Olympus em-5.   Once again I won't use this for the whole project because of tethering but the look of this file is way different than the other three.  It has more nose but it's grain like noise, sharpness detail slightly less then the em-1, same with the p30+ and S2.
iso 400, using hmi lighting.
Now the look of the file.  180 degrees from the other cameras.  Crazy film like, I mean if this was scanned 35mm file you'd say uh yea, sure.
I can make all of these camera files look good, but the em-5 just blew us all away.  I mean everyone including the AD that said, wow that is cool, which camera did you use  . . . the leica.  I said no this little one and he said oh come one.

My point?

These are different cameras, costs widely different numbers, all have a place but on set, in controlled conditions, any of the 4 will work more than professionally.

The p30+ just is insane that it's 8 years old, on a body and lens that is out of production and it easily equals the S2.   The only difference is it's larger, heavier and requires two sets of batteries, plus the lcd is less than good, but anyone that thinks medium format is over priced hasn't used a digital camera like this for 7 years.    That averages about $4,700 per year.    

The em1 is by far the best shooting of the four.  Focus is instant, always sharp, always obvious and the file is professional but not much different in look of the two medium format cameras.  It just lacks some detail in comparison.

The em-5. This is a commercial project, but the em-5 is art.   I don't know what olympus did to that sony sensor, but man if they made it larger with the build quality of the em-1  and could tether, they'd own the world.  

FWIW we only did 5 frames with the Canon 1dx, just to make sure everything was running well and since we had a heavy day, I really couldn't compared cameras.  I did all these quick tests in minutes.
But honestly the 1dx didn't shoot 1 bit better than the olympus either one.

So my real point?

Use what you like and don't worry about dxo, pixel peeping, or anything that gets in the way of your photography it, because all of these cameras are very good.

My third point.  Why didn't Sony (since they work with olympus), come out with the 5 axis stabilization and why not ask the olympus guys how they got the look of the em-5 sensor out of the a sony sensor?


IMO

BC
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bcooter
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« Reply #55 on: March 11, 2014, 08:47:20 PM »
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J,

 Thx for the experience report -
----------------
 My take from your note: Every prosumer camera is now "professional". It's all in the head, eyes.

Edmund


Well sort of.  I mean the olympus won't tether, has a certain range of focus for tracking, has a great file, though the em-5 is a very small camera.

For editorial no problem, for full time commerce, it needs to be more robust and full featured.  This is where a dslr will win out.

___________


The last two days shot 29 to 30 set ups of on figure fashion with the Leica S2 and video clips of 20 sessions with the Pansonic gh3's.

The S2 tethered flawlessly using image shuttle and Lightroom.

The only complaints I have, which are very, very minor, is if you shoot at a semi moderate pace, it takes about 5 seconds for the first image, then every few seconds for the remaining images to come into lightroom full rez using a powerbook.

But if you shoot fast and long bursts, then it will hold 7 to 10 images then release them at once to lightroom which takes a while to render out.

This can be good and bad.  I find it preferable tojust load the buffer and shoot a body of images, then let them see them at once which is usually better than seeing every image every second, but that's just me.

But you can shoot slower and they come in pretty fast, though keep in mind we set up a lot of specialized adjustments in  lightroom to give a more finished look.  I'd say an image fully rendered aboug 3 or 4 seconds.

The Contax lenses work as fast as the leica lenses, except the leica lenses have a little less bite and seem less contrasty, but that's really hard to compare.

Great camera, so far robust, and today shot hmi, flash, mixture from 160 to 640 iso with no issues.

IMO

BC

« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 08:48:54 PM by bcooter » Logged

eronald
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« Reply #56 on: March 11, 2014, 09:25:56 PM »
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sounds like one of those new round dustbin macs might be useful.

however, I think maybe you need to have several different disks, there might be too much of a queue with Lightroom trying to write converted files while the Leica tries to write the originals on the same disk unit? I'd hang different disks off different buses.
 
i hope never to tether. but then I guess my experimental cams will be tethered.


Edmund

Well sort of.  I mean the olympus won't tether, has a certain range of focus for tracking, has a great file, though the em-5 is a very small camera.

For editorial no problem, for full time commerce, it needs to be more robust and full featured.  This is where a dslr will win out.

___________


The last two days shot 29 to 30 set ups of on figure fashion with the Leica S2 and video clips of 20 sessions with the Pansonic gh3's.

The S2 tethered flawlessly using image shuttle and Lightroom.

The only complaints I have, which are very, very minor, is if you shoot at a semi moderate pace, it takes about 5 seconds for the first image, then every few seconds for the remaining images to come into lightroom full rez using a powerbook.

But if you shoot fast and long bursts, then it will hold 7 to 10 images then release them at once to lightroom which takes a while to render out.

This can be good and bad.  I find it preferable tojust load the buffer and shoot a body of images, then let them see them at once which is usually better than seeing every image every second, but that's just me.

But you can shoot slower and they come in pretty fast, though keep in mind we set up a lot of specialized adjustments in  lightroom to give a more finished look.  I'd say an image fully rendered aboug 3 or 4 seconds.

The Contax lenses work as fast as the leica lenses, except the leica lenses have a little less bite and seem less contrasty, but that's really hard to compare.

Great camera, so far robust, and today shot hmi, flash, mixture from 160 to 640 iso with no issues.

IMO

BC


« Last Edit: March 11, 2014, 09:30:54 PM by eronald » Logged
bcooter
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« Reply #57 on: March 11, 2014, 10:30:50 PM »
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i hope never to tether. but then I guess

Edmund


Edmund,

I think you should forget about the camera and view this.

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/60072add5a/between-two-ferns-with-zach-galifianakis-ben-stiller?playlist=135161

Use it as inspiration.

You could do you on web series, call it something like, between two Canons.  You know draw some pixels on a black background.

I think it would be a hit.

BC
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eronald
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« Reply #58 on: March 11, 2014, 11:20:54 PM »
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low budget no budget Smiley

Edmund,

I think you should forget about the camera and view this.

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/60072add5a/between-two-ferns-with-zach-galifianakis-ben-stiller?playlist=135161

Use it as inspiration.

You could do you on web series, call it something like, between two Canons.  You know draw some pixels on a black background.

I think it would be a hit.

BC
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bcooter
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« Reply #59 on: March 14, 2014, 08:39:43 PM »
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One more day of production, though so far this week shot 3853 frames with the S-2 tethered, through Leica Image shuttle and lightroom.

Working strobe and daylight, daylight and hmi, heavy schedule, full sets.

Not one glitch, except the cord got pulled once and we reconnected.

No restarts, etc. etc. and the batteries in the Leica S2 last forever.

Now with the Canons might have double that number, but not the amount of good frames, so speed is relative, though the camera handles like a dslr with a viewfinder you can actually manually focus.

IMO

BC
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