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Author Topic: phase one digital backs  (Read 1644 times)
david distefano
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« on: February 28, 2014, 08:41:02 PM »
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doug and/or steve i was just looking at the current lineup of p+ backs on the phase one website and wondered why not the p30+ or p25+ anymore. is the price of sensors such that there would be no real savings to customers who would be interested in these products. i know they are available in the  used market but some people like to buy new. i know we talked about entry level and thought that this might be a way.
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eronald
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« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2014, 09:12:39 PM »
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doug and/or steve i was just looking at the current lineup of p+ backs on the phase one website and wondered why not the p30+ or p25+ anymore. is the price of sensors such that there would be no real savings to customers who would be interested in these products. i know they are available in the  used market but some people like to buy new. i know we talked about entry level and thought that this might be a way.

Sensor marginal cost probably depends mainly on the area, not the pixel count - so the manufacturing cost of a new and an old sensor design is roughly the same.

Edmund
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2014, 12:46:01 AM »
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We (Digital Transitions) and other specialized dealers still sell a lot of p30+ And p25+, and even non-plus backs. We just sell them as warrantied pre-owned backs.

The reason they aren't sold as new anymore is the same set of reasons that the previous Mac Pro isn't sold as new by Apple anymore now that they have a more modern version. That doesn't mean the old Mac Pro isn't still a good value (at the preowned or refurb pricing you can get then for), only that Apple itself isn't the avenue for those sales anymore.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 12:48:01 AM by Doug Peterson » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
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Phase One IQ250 FAQ
Theodoros
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« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2014, 05:58:55 AM »
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doug and/or steve i was just looking at the current lineup of p+ backs on the phase one website and wondered why not the p30+ or p25+ anymore. is the price of sensors such that there would be no real savings to customers who would be interested in these products. i know they are available in the  used market but some people like to buy new. i know we talked about entry level and thought that this might be a way.
I believe that the Kodak 22mp was discontinued some years back and the 33x44mm 31mp one has been replaced by a new higher resolution one… I know however that P1 is returning those backs back to the market (unlike Hasselblad who "kills" them) after having them checked for proper performance… In P1, they only "kill" what was cheaper than P25+ when they take a part exchange. IMO, P25+ was a superb back well worth having even today. It has great DR, very good long exposure ability, it is among the best to use on a tech/view camera, it is one of the best representatives of the "fat pixel magic" look, can print really large if one masters printing well and is usable at 200Iso with great colour… The only thing one has to care a bit more with it, (as with all "fat pixel" backs) is moire, …yet, the later versions of Capture One, do improve its performance further than (the already great) people were experiencing with it when it was first introduced and it takes care to much extend of the occasional moire that may appear on fabric structures… highly recommended IMO. When I tried one on my Contax, I was so impressed that I would prefer it from P45+ or P30+ and I know more that thought the same.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 06:02:20 AM by T.Dascalos » Logged
lance_schad
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« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2014, 08:16:28 AM »
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doug and/or steve i was just looking at the current lineup of p+ backs on the phase one website and wondered why not the p30+ or p25+ anymore. is the price of sensors such that there would be no real savings to customers who would be interested in these products. i know they are available in the  used market but some people like to buy new. i know we talked about entry level and thought that this might be a way.

David
Phase One still has  the P30+,P40+ and P65+ available as new in 4 different mounts , thats 12 unique P+ products. They also have  7 IQ1/2 models each in 4 different mounts. The reason there are no more new P25+/P45+ is that new sensors are no longer available.

If you do want to purchase a NEW P+ I would do it now because at the end of March new P+ production will cease and once they sell through the existing inventory P+ systems will only be available as factory refurbished models. In your case the most affordable NEW P+ that you mention you are interested in is the P30+ which is @ $10,990.

Phase One Factory Refurbished systems come from the factory in all new packaging and with new accessories. The only way you would know it is a refurbished unit is by the shot count, and even that can sometimes is surprising. For example currently in our Pre_Owned / Refurbished inventory we have a P30+M with 19 captures , P65+ with 88 captures, P30M with 1003 captures and of course we have more units available with more and even less captures than those examples. Heck we had some P20's recently available with shot counts as low as 200 shots and sold with a full factory one year warranty.

We often have people who are interested in a specific back/mount combo that put a purchase reservation request in with us. When something comes around that meets the criteria we will contact them and complete the purchase.

If you know exactly what you want this is an excellent way to get what you want without having to spend your time searching around and also get

So David please feel free to contact us with your request and time frame and we will do our best to find your dream back.

Lance


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LANCE SCHAD - DIGITAL TRANSITIONS - Phase One,Leaf/Mamiya,Arca-Swiss,Cambo value added reseller
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david distefano
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« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2014, 09:27:30 AM »
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p30+ as doug told me earlier is not advisable on view camera while the p25+ is. since i really liked my cfv-16 with 9 micron pixel, the p25+ would fit the same. also i believe the p25+ if used on my 503, the zeiss lenses wouldn't be a negative factor on image quality.
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lance_schad
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« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2014, 10:18:35 AM »
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That is correct the P30+ is not optimal for tech / view camera. Only brought it up because you specifically mentioned in the above post.
Lance
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LANCE SCHAD - DIGITAL TRANSITIONS - Phase One,Leaf/Mamiya,Arca-Swiss,Cambo value added reseller
direct/cell:610-496-5586  office:877-367-8537 x 224
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Steve Hendrix
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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2014, 01:39:11 PM »
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p30+ as doug told me earlier is not advisable on view camera while the p25+ is. since i really liked my cfv-16 with 9 micron pixel, the p25+ would fit the same. also i believe the p25+ if used on my 503, the zeiss lenses wouldn't be a negative factor on image quality.


That's true, although I feel the Zeiss lenses are usable on digital backs with even smaller pixels. The range of use may be limited to a degree as pixel size gets smaller. However, the output size is also a factor as more detail is captured and reflected past the native output size of the lower megapixel back. There are compensating factors. So numerous factors and components - as almost always - need to be taken into consideration.

To the original query - I agree that previous generation digital backs continue to present great image quality opportunities. That is one important way that they are different from computers - which are primarily designed to calculate with speed, and they either do it faster or more slowly. The speed and power differences in computers of today vs computers from 8 years ago are huge. But imaging devices are designed to produce a certain level of image quality. It's a testament to medium format digital products that the quality from products introduced even 10 years ago is still so good today. If your output requirements have not changed, then they still produce value. If I need to process 200 images on a 10 year old computer compared to today - there is no contest, that 10 year old computer is garbage. If I need to output a quality image at 20x30 with a 10 year old MFDB, the quality even today is very, very good.

Fortunately, there are opportunities for purchasing these products at great prices, and even - from CI - with full 1 year standard warranties and all new accessories, just as if you were buying it brand new. Here's our requisite link below - though keep in mind many pre-owned units don't make it to the website, they get sold before ever getting there, so it's good to call or email if there's a particular model you're looking for, especially if you don't see it in our pre-owned section. What you see below is not everything we have.

https://captureintegration.com/store/product-category/podigitalbacks/


And yes, companies produce new products and old ones go away. It is rarely practical to continue to add unit sales of a product that is 2-3-4 generations back, since the support costs cut into the ability to support newer, higher end products. Also, in many cases, components can become difficult to source and sometimes actually are no longer available. In that case, there is a limited number of units that can be produced where complete repair can still be offered.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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MFDB: Phase One/Leaf-Mamiya/Hasselblad/Leica/Sinar
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david distefano
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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2014, 07:08:54 PM »
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with hasselblad zeiss lenses and rodenstock and schneider analog large format lenses about what mfdb would be the maximum to get the most out of the back?
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Rob Whitehead
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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2014, 09:20:08 AM »
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Phase One Factory Refurbished systems come from the factory in all new packaging and with new accessories. The only way you would know it is a refurbished unit is by the shot count, and even that can sometimes is surprising. For example currently in our Pre_Owned / Refurbished inventory we have a P30+M with 19 captures , P65+ with 88 captures, P30M with 1003 captures and of course we have more units available with more and even less captures than those examples. Heck we had some P20's recently available with shot counts as low as 200 shots and sold with a full factory one year warranty.


A P30+ with 19 captures??? I've got no idea how that happens. How can you drop that much money on a MFDB and then put less than a roll of film's worth through it?!?

I still in some ways want a P25 - based on so many posts read back in the day about how awesome the image quality was. And as mentioned above, the image quality is just the same as it ever was - in fact perhaps better due the improvements in Capture One since the back was new.

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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2014, 09:59:23 AM »
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A P30+ with 19 captures??? I've got no idea how that happens. How can you drop that much money on a MFDB and then put less than a roll of film's worth through it?!?

Several ways, only one of which is the "collector" who doesn't use their system before upgrading it.

If someone buys a new Team Phase One back and it's delivered with some defect, even if it is quite minor, it is replaced rather than repaired. The unit with the defect then is shipped back to the factory for repair. It could be something as small as a button whose clicking action wasn't quite firm enough. This is pretty rare but if/when it does that unit can not any longer be sold as new – even if it only has e.g. 19 captures on it.

Another situation is purchases during a product launch. Several Team Phase One products were announced before they were ready to ship. In such cases there was usually a provision to buy the announced product and receive a loaner back in the meantime. For instance if you bought an IQ160 when they were announced you got a P65+ for several weeks while waiting for the IQ160 to ship. Some clients do not end up using their loaner much, either because the final product shipped faster than expected, or because they already owned a back and were just using the loaner as a backup, or whatever reason. Those backs again, still could not be sold as "new" again and end up in the refurb stock.

There are a few other ways this can happen too.

Personally I don't think shot count is all that important. I'd consider warranty, condition, history of use, and support much more important. Shot count can serve as a pretty good proxy/indication of history of use, but it's not perfect. For instance I'd rather have a back with 100,000 shots that came from a product photography studio where it never came off the camera stand vs a hiker who was constantly roughing the back around (these backs can take heat and a beating, but the studio back is obviously going to be closer to new in overall condition but push-comes-to-shove I'd still rather own a back that lived a boring life).
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 10:02:35 AM by Doug Peterson » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
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Chris Livsey
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« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2014, 01:04:01 PM »
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I still in some ways want a P25 - based on so many posts read back in the day about how awesome the image quality was. And as mentioned above, the image quality is just the same as it ever was - in fact perhaps better due the improvements in Capture One since the back was new.

I can comment that without doubt that V7 C1 has improved the output from my venerable P20. New files were so improved, I thought,  I went back to re-process some favourites which confirmed the initial visual impression. So pleasing that this software is updated for legacy backs.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 01:05:46 PM by Chris Livsey » Logged

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Theodoros
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« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2014, 05:39:30 PM »
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I can comment that without doubt that V7 C1 has improved the output from my venerable P20. New files were so improved, I thought,  I went back to re-process some favourites which confirmed the initial visual impression. So pleasing that this software is updated for legacy backs.

Sssssh…. you'll be heart and they'll stop selling their backs to upgrade! …prices will go up!
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drevil
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« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2014, 07:06:46 PM »
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for how much goes a new p25+ these days?
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Doug Peterson
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« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2014, 08:15:15 PM »
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for how much goes a new p25+ these days?

Very very few NEW P25+ are sold anymore. Pre-owned and refurbished digital backs will vary greatly depending on which mount, shot count / condition, what else you're getting at the same time, and what warranty/service/support/accessories are included. Anywhere from $4k to $7k ballpark can be the case depending on the combination of the above.

You can check with your local dealer. Even if they don't have one at the moment you call them they can keep you in mind as users trade in such backs to newer backs. A large portion of our backs are sold before we ever list them for sale under such arrangements. If you're in the US you're welcome to email me with which mount you're looking for so we can look out for you; I don't think we have any in stock this week. P25+M backs in particular don't stay on our shelves very long at all
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 08:17:27 PM by Doug Peterson » Logged

DOUG PETERSON (dep@digitaltransitions.com), Digital Transitions
Dealer for Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Profoto
Office: 877.367.8537
Cell: 740.707.2183
Phase One IQ250 FAQ
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