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Author Topic: GX 7 35-"100" and shutter shake  (Read 1977 times)
stever
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« on: March 06, 2014, 08:01:42 PM »
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in order to put together a light and reasonably unobtrusive travel kit (alternative to 5D3), a tele zoom with good resolution is essential for my needs.  if the Panny 35-100 can deliver good quality prints, then i'll go ahead with the investment in the wide and medium lenses.

testing on a tripod the GX7 and 35-100 resolution is essentially the same (using Imatest) as my 7D and 70-200 f4 at 200mm effective (certainly good for 13x19 prints). Except the 35-"100" only goes to about 155mm - a detail not mentioned in any review I could find.  It was also essential to use the GX7 electronic shutter and turn off stabilization on a tripod.  As I found with the 45-150, the mechanical shutter cuts resolution disastrously. I don't intend to use this camera on a tripod and have yet to figure out how to test when and whether the mechanical shutter can be used handheld.

by this point in the development of mirrorless cameras it surprises me that there are no lenses longer than 150mm (oly 75 and panny 35-"100") able to realize the resolution of the camera sensors.  I'm also wondering if the decline in mirrorless sales results from the consumer realization of the limitations of existing mirrorless systems - which appear to me to be mostly the result of deficiencies in manufacturers planning, capability and resources - not the concept.
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npatricksmith
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« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2014, 09:38:42 AM »
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Hi stever,

Could you further clarify what you mean by "the 35-10 only goes to about 155mm"? Thanks.
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DanLehman
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« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2014, 10:46:40 AM »
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Quote
Except the 35-"100" only goes to about 155mm - a detail not mentioned in any review I could find.
Try the review here http://admiringlight.com/blog/review-panasonic-lumix-g-vario-35-100mm-f2-8-x-ois/2/
which answers an observation similar to yours,
of "There are numerous reports in the German Systemkamera Forum that the 2.8/35-100mm lens does not really have 100mm at the long end. Forum members and owners of the lens claim that it is only a 35-85mm lens in reality, which would be more than the usual tolerances."
with
"I remembered: like many telephoto zooms like this, the real measurement needs to be taken at infinity. (My little quick test was at about 5 feet.) Internally focusing lenses tend to shorten focal length at closer distances, and zooms likely further than primes, so it is quite possible that its very close to accurate at infinity, but a little shorter at closer focus distances. For instance, the Nikon 70-200 f/2.8 VR is only 135mm at minimum focus distance, and I think I recall the Canon 70-200 shortening to about 150-160mm at that focus distance.

So, I took a few test shots out my window, and while at 75mm, the 75/1.8 is still SLIGHTLY longer, Id put the difference at no more than 1mm (its extremely close to the same framing). At 80mm on the zoom, its a tighter perspective, and 100mm much tighter still. So, I would say the 35-100 may shorten in a similar manner to most modern 70-200 zooms at the closer focus range, but it appears to be pretty close to marked focal lengths at infinity.
"

Quote
As I found with the 45-150, the mechanical shutter cuts resolution disastrously.
I ... have yet to figure out how to test when and whether the mechanical shutter can be used handheld.
Do you mean, really, "electronic" --that you want
to use that, handheld?

--dl*
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Chris Sanderson
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« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2014, 11:02:59 AM »
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...it surprises me that there are no lenses longer than 150mm (oly 75 and panny 35-"100") able to realize the resolution of the camera sensors.
I use the Panasonic 100-300 extensively, and while out of habit, I tend not to push the zoom to the hard 'end' in either direction, I have had great success with this lens for both video & stills. It compares favourably in IQ to the far more expensive Panny 35-100 which is superb IMO.
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Christopher Sanderson
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« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2014, 01:16:41 PM »
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I use the Panasonic 100-300 extensively, and while out of habit, I tend not to push the zoom to the hard 'end' in either direction, I have had great success with this lens for both video & stills. It compares favourably in IQ to the far more expensive Panny 35-100 which is superb IMO.

I use the 100 to 300 also and for 500 bucks it's a hell of a nice lens, beautiful with motion imagery.  Wish it was a 2.0 or 2.8 but it's damn pretty on the long end.

IMO

BC
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Telecaster
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« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2014, 01:30:17 PM »
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As Dan's review quote notes, some zooms can noticeably lose reach when focused at closer distances. I've seen this with a variety of lenses from a variety of makers over the years.

I had my GX7 on a tripod a few days ago, trying it out with a Pentax A series 100/2.8. No vibration effects observed. In fact I was getting aliasing in the upper left corner, the point of focus, of some test pics with the lens wide open. (This little lens has impressed the heck outta me both on m43 and the Sony A7r. I knew it was good but...geez!) If the 35100mm has a tripod collar, ignore it and try mounting the camera on the tripod instead.

-Dave-
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GLJ
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« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2014, 03:18:53 PM »
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I don't intend to use this camera on a tripod and have yet to figure out how to test when and whether the mechanical shutter can be used handheld.

Its not really clear exactly what you're trying to discover, however my advice would be to use electronic shuttering pretty much all the time. In most situations, there doesn't seem to be any disadvantage in terms of noise, or DR etc and you're sure you're not going to suffer from any shutter shake (that's a very real thing with a lot of the microfourthirds cameras, Olympus and Panasonic)
The only issues can be some jello effect if you're shooting fast moving subjects, an ISO limit of 1600, a shutter speed limit of 1 sec max, and the flash doesn't work. However its just a minor annoyance to have to switch the mechanical shutter back on if you happen to shoot in a way that runs into the ES limitations, and then you're usually not shooting in a shutter shock problem zone anyway.
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stever
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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2014, 06:27:13 PM »
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yes Dan, the 35-100 is pretty close to 200 eff at infinity - I'd always thought this focal length change was an only issue on internal focusing macro lenses at macro distances - the loss of focal length at 15 ft test distance is still a surprise (the Canon 70-200 f4 has no noticeable loss of focal length at this distance)

GLJ - what I'm trying to discover are the low light limits of the camera/lens and what print quality I can expect from shots in the field - and what combination of settings/technique is required for best results.  So far, I've been using electronic shutter as the default as you suggest and have not seen any jello.  One question was whether or not to use mechanical shutter to allow ISO 6400 instead of 3200 max with ES - the answer appears to be no.

Telecaster - it appears (as would be expected) that the mechanical shutter shake is shutter speed (frequency) dependent and will probably vary with mounting and lens mass.  the 35-100 problem seems to be worst around 1/160 and disappears by 1/50 on the low end (didn't test the high end) -  hand holding as firmly to my face as practical it seemed to move down to 1/80 and was okay by 1/160 and above.  these are rough numbers as the testing is time consuming and would take a large sample size to be definitive - without the electronic shutter option I'd probably just write the whole kit off.

I spent a bunch of time hand held testing and found the 35-100 at maximum focal length doesn't appear to be sharp enough with mechanical shutter below 1/160 sec with IS to make prints.  with the electronic shutter it's reasonably consistent down to 1/50 sec and taking a burst of 3-5 images will likely provide one reasonably sharp image at 1/25.  for comparison, the 5D3 and 70-200 will consistently make sharp images at 1/25 hand held (which I didn't expect).  I got no sharp images from the 7D and 70-200 (which I also didn't expect and will have to revisit - may be a result of inadvertently using one-shot AF - I've got the GX7 set to AFF as default and Canons AI Servo)

Page 209 of the manual says that "shutter delay" can be set between 1 and 8 seconds "to reduce the influence of hand shake or shutter vibration".  With this set, the shutter appears to operate in distinct stages. Has anyone tried this?
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GLJ
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« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2014, 06:38:11 PM »
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Page 209 of the manual says that "shutter delay" can be set between 1 and 8 seconds "to reduce the influence of hand shake or shutter vibration".  With this set, the shutter appears to operate in distinct stages. Has anyone tried this?

I don't use it on my GH3 as this is in electronic shutter mode most of the time anyway so its pointless. However it probably works in the same way as on the Oly EM5/1 cameras, in as much as when you want to take a shot, the first thing that happens is that the shutter CLOSES, and its this closure that often seems to give the most shock. Normally the shutter will then go through a standard open cycle that a mirrored DSPR would do, but with the delay mode, it waits after the initial closure, before it starts. So you'll hear an initial close clunk, then a delay, then the curtain will open and close to take the exposure. (and of course then its got to open again to allow live view!)
On many cameras, this delay is essential to try and minimise  shutter shock. I have to leave it on all the time (on a 1/8th of a sec delay) on the EM5 to ensure sharp images. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to cure all the shock issues on the EM1 :-(
FWIW, I'm not buying another Olympus MFT camera until they implement a proper electronic shutter mode. Its not worth the risk.
Also - I'm rather concerned about the next batch of Panasonic cameras, because there is talk on the net that to increase the readout speed of the electronic shuttering mode (to avoid the jello effect), it may be that they switch to a 10bit readout mode instead of 12, causing less DR and noisier shadows. I've tested my G6 and GH3 cameras and they seem ok, but I've seen some samples from a GM1, and that did seem to give worse shadows, and apparently someone found the data sheet for the Gh4 sensor, and that mentions this 10 bit mode. Worrying for those seeking to pry as much quality as they can out of these smaller sensors. Both shutter shock and a reduced DR would be an unacceptable option as far as I'm concerned. The system is JUST about good enough now as far as I'm concerned, but to go backwards probably crosses this very fine threshold. YMMV of course.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2014, 06:39:53 PM by GLJ » Logged
stever
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« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2014, 12:09:33 AM »
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Is there evidence that the GX7 goes to 10 bits with ES?  I haven't seen this, but I've mostly been looking at resolution - 10 bits is not acceptable.

I played with shutter delay a bit don't see much usefulness.  No use hand-held.  Don't think it's as good as ES on a tripod (at least for resolution although I only went to 4 seconds).  Can be used with ES to provide intermediate delays between those provided by the self timer.

With good lenses, the GX7 is capable of very good resolution.  The lousy manual and the questions about what the camera is really doing result in a time consuming learning curve.
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Vladimirovich
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« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2014, 12:13:23 AM »
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Is there evidence that the GX7 goes to 10 bits with ES?  I haven't seen this, but I've mostly been looking at resolution - 10 bits is not acceptable.

so how it is not acceptable if it is there and yet you do not see the effects Wink ?

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GLJ
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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2014, 07:46:32 AM »
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Is there evidence that the GX7 goes to 10 bits with ES?

I have not seen any and think it unlikely. But I don't have this model and so haven't looked for it myself. I would have thought you're safe. why not do some tests and compare just to be on the safe side?
The only camera out there at the moment that MIGHT do it is the GM1. But I'm certainly going to be looking carefully at what the GH4 is doing before I consider getting one.
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stever
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« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2014, 08:49:58 AM »
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some effects are not easy to see without making large prints shot under various conditions

in any case, file size is the same with mechanical and electronic shutter so bit depth should be the same

unfortunately the GM1 doesn't offer electronic shutter
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PhotoEcosse
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« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2014, 12:05:14 PM »
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I use the Lumix 45-200mm lens extensively on my GX7 (always hand-held) and it gives pin-sharp results throughout the range - certainly in prints up to A3+ (329 x 423mm). Beyond that I cannot say.
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GLJ
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« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2014, 04:32:18 PM »
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some effects are not easy to see without making large prints shot under various conditions

in any case, file size is the same with mechanical and electronic shutter so bit depth should be the same

unfortunately the GM1 doesn't offer electronic shutter

I'm afraid you're incorrect. The GM1 does have an electronic shutter. In fact, if you go above 1/500th of a sec, I seem to recall you have no option BUT to operate in electronic shutter mode.

Also, simply checking the file size could also lead to an erroneous conclusion about bit depth. While it MIGHT be a way to tell, there is no guarantee they don't store a 10 or a 12 bit value in exactly the same way, just padding the unread bits with zeros.
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