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Author Topic: How to make "image white" into "paper white"  (Read 5578 times)
Alan Klein
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« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2014, 09:47:09 AM »
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I can select sRGB, Adobe RGB, Native (Full), EBU/ITU (PAL/SECAM), SMPTE-C, DCI, ECI/NTSC(1953),
Color Match (P22-EBU) and CRT Display.

1. So you recommend I should use Adobe RGB rather than Native (Full)?  Is that correct?

2. So once I edit it to what I think is correct, I create a soft proof print copy and tweak the proof for printing.   If the print is still not correct,  then I would change the Intensity on the edit page.  Is that true and are there other changes normally made so that future "prints" are OK?

3.  What procedure do you follow then to create an sRGB for the internet? 

4. What do you do when you email photos to others?

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TonyW
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« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2014, 12:13:01 PM »
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I can select sRGB, Adobe RGB, Native (Full), EBU/ITU (PAL/SECAM), SMPTE-C, DCI, ECI/NTSC(1953),
Color Match (P22-EBU) and CRT Display.
My, what a lot of choices - I only have two, monitor switch on or off  Grin

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1. So you recommend I should use Adobe RGB rather than Native (Full)?  Is that correct?
I can only state what my preferences with a good monitor would be rather than make a generalised recommendation.  Not familiar with your particular monitor but assume that it must be fairly close to Adobe RGB so the question is why is there a Native(Full) choice as well?  My guess at this time is that Native(Full) would be the correct option to choose and this is the setting that you would be in when calibrating.

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2. So once I edit it to what I think is correct, I create a soft proof print copy and tweak the proof for printing.   If the print is still not correct,  then I would change the Intensity on the edit page.  Is that true and are there other changes normally made so that future "prints" are OK?
Yes, soft proofing and tweaking the soft proof version with the correct (and good!) paper profile on a correctly profiled monitor and viewing the print in the 'correct' lighting should give you a very good match print to screen (most of the time) - if that is your aim.  Should you change paper type and therefore profile you will need to tweak again when soft proofing using the new profile

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3.  What procedure do you follow then to create an sRGB for the internet?
Within LR Export file / File setting JPEG sRGB / Image sizing as required for web

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4. What do you do when you email photos to others?
Direct from LR File / Email photo / set size as required


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Alan Klein
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« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2014, 02:06:21 PM »
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1.  I don't know which is best to use for my PA242W, but I'll try to find out.
2. OK

I wasn't clear on my questions for 3 and 4. 

3.  Let's say I edit for printing using Adobe RGB.  When completed, do you just create the JPEG sRGB from the Adobe RGB? Or do you  switch to an sRGB profile and edit from the beginning?

4. Do you use  sRGB for email files too?
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Alan Klein
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« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2014, 02:28:22 PM »
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Here's what NEC says about which color gamut to use in their SV2 manual.

Color Gamut The color gamut is the range of colors that can be displayed by the monitor. The color gamut of a monitor is defined and bounded by the red, green and blue primaries which together make up all other colors. Depending on the display model being used, the Color Gamut can be fully customized for specialized applications. See the Color Gamut section for more information on selecting and configuring the Color Gamut. The choice of Color Gamut will depend on the applications and operating system being used. Typically if a color managed application is being used, then the Native (Full) color gamut should be used since this will allow the application to make full use of the color capabilities of the display. This applies even if the image, document, etc. is intended for another color gamut such as sRGB or AdobeRGB. The color gamut should not normally be set to that of the color workspace of the application, if it is color managed. Likewise the color workspace should not normally be set to the color gamut of the display. For non-color managed applications a specific color gamut such as sRGB can be selected to make the display appear as if it has such a color gamut. In this case, all of the necessary color conversions are done automatically within the display.

They add in the color gamut section:

By using the Native (Full) setting, the color gamut will be that of the LCD panel which will result in the widest possible color gamut. Use this setting if you are using color managed applications such as Adobe Photoshop which use a Color Management System to correctly convert colors for display.

So do you use Native on the monitor for both printing and the internet? What do you set Lightroom 5 for?
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TonyW
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« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2014, 04:31:27 PM »
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...I wasn't clear on my questions for 3 and 4. 

3.  Let's say I edit for printing using Adobe RGB.  When completed, do you just create the JPEG sRGB from the Adobe RGB? Or do you  switch to an sRGB profile and edit from the beginning?
I think you may be misunderstanding here assuming we are still talking about editing in and output from LR.  You do not really need to worry too much about LR and colour management as it has been made relatively simple and pretty much automated without the need for much in the way of user intervention.  Just by following a few simple rules you will get exactly the output you need without having to consider conversions until such time as needed for output to others or specific devices outside your direct control e.g. lab handling your printing.

As you stated 'edit for printing using Adobe RGB' a little more detail of at least my basic understanding of LR may be of some help in understanding why this is not appropriate or required at the editing stage.

AFAIK editing in LR Develop mode uses the colour coordinates to ProPhoto RGB with a linear gamma of 1.0 for internal calculations only.  What you actually see on screen is a representation of the image using a tonal response curve similar to sRGB with a gamma of 2.2 serving both the screen image and histogram view.  This only applies to raw images as for others, TIFF, JPEG, PSD the embedded profile is used and if no profile then LR will assume an SRGB document.

The working/editing space in LR therefore is fixed and cannot actually be changed to Adobe RGB, sRGB or any other working space, nor does it need to be until output to a device such as a printer required.  Only then do you need to tell LR what colour space required either an icc profile for a particular printer paper or to output a document as an sRGB, Adobe RGB, ProPhoto or indeed any other device profile you have installed.

Regardless of any inaccuracy in the above you should not worry about what happens internally in LR and only be concerned with getting the best out of your image in the Develop module.  Then by selecting the correct profile prior to outputting to print or saving to file you are probably pretty much guaranteed to get an accurate result as LR will take care of the required conversions.

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4. Do you use  sRGB for email files too?
It depends on the purpose and the recipient.  If it is being sent to someone who does not use a colour managed application or have a clue what colour management is then sRGB is probably the safest bet.  For others that may wish to edit images within in a colour managed environment then any appropriate RGB flavour could be sent.

So do you use Native on the monitor for both printing and the internet? What do you set Lightroom 5 for?
Native on the monitor should be your standard and where conversion is required for printing let LR take care of this directly using the paper profile.  For output to internet the safest bet I think is to use soft proofing to SRGB then after any editing just export your file.  As stated earlier you cannot set up the LR working/editing space to be any other than LR's native space so it is just the output space you need to get correct.
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Alan Klein
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« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2014, 05:04:20 PM »
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OK  So if I understand this, I set NEC SV2 to Native Full and then do all the adjustments in LR5.  When I get to print, I soft proof LR5 with the paper/printer I'm using and tweak LR5 from there for the print only.  If I send a picture to the internet or email, I only have to create an sRGB file from the final edited picture from LR5.  No more tweaking would be necessary.  LR5 makes the proper conversion.

Am I right so far?    _____________?

But what are the other gamuts in SV2 for?  Why do they give you the option to select them?
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TonyW
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« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2014, 09:55:31 AM »
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Alan,
Suggesting the use of Native(Full) was to allow the full gamut of the monitor to be accessed, otherwise why would we want to purchase a wide gamut monitor?
 
However, this consideration did not take into account any of the presets that your monitor has and the possibility that using the Native preset (or any other!) does not allow you to use the hardware calibration facility within NEC monitors using the SpectraView software and calibration tool.  As NEC monitors allow for full hardware calibration via the internal LUT (for approved calibration tools and software only) then this is the best option.
 
Not being familiar with your particular model and having checked the preset options on my own budget level NEC there are 7 presets available including one for sRGB and one marked N for Native the final one marked P for programmable.
 
I believe the Programmable setting is the one that you should be using as this is likely to be the only one that allows the SpectraView software to alter the monitors hardware calibration settings directly.   I do not know for sure so I would suggest consulting the manual.

My assumption is that you do have the required SpectraView software and an approved calibration device to enable hardware calibration?

So after calibration and profiling the monitor and making sure that the profile is being used by your OS then yes I believe your are correct in using LR as stated to make the conversions for either file, print or email.

Other presets will allow the monitor to emulate a particular colour space by just pressing a button and probably allow a degree of modification to the colour temp. and hue.
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Alan Klein
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« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2014, 11:53:03 AM »
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Tony:  I ignore the manual gamut selection for the monotir and only select SV2.  Then, in the SV2 propgram, I can select sRGB, Adobe RGB, Native (Full), EBU/ITU (PAL/SECAM), SMPTE-C, DCI, ECI/NTSC(1953), Color Match (P22-EBU) and CRT Display.   The SV2 will calibrate using the calibration device "puck" on the screen.  So my display can be calibrated for Native, sRGB  or Adpbe SGB and the others mentioned.   I can create Targets for all of them and select which ever one I want to use.

So the question is, if I use Native (full), will my adjustments being done in LR5 be "off" when I create the sRGB file in LR?  Would I be better off starting with the SV2 calibrated sRGB when I begin to post process in LR5?  What about if my intention is to Print.  Stick with Native or something else?  Note that the default setting when you select Photo Editing is Native in SV2.

If I leave the gamut on Photo Editing and the Native is selected, when I look at the web the coklors are more intense.  They look like the use to when I select sRGB.  So that's why I'm afraid if I calibrate using Native, when LR5 converts to sRGB, the colors will be wrong.  What do you think?
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TonyW
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« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2014, 02:03:56 PM »
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Tony:  I ignore the manual gamut selection for the monotir and only select SV2.  Then, in the SV2 propgram, I can select sRGB, Adobe RGB, Native (Full), EBU/ITU (PAL/SECAM), SMPTE-C, DCI, ECI/NTSC(1953), Color Match (P22-EBU) and CRT Display.   The SV2 will calibrate using the calibration device "puck" on the screen.  So my display can be calibrated for Native, sRGB  or Adpbe SGB and the others mentioned.   I can create Targets for all of them and select which ever one I want to use.
Alan, I understand I think what you are saying about the SV2 (SpectraView II ?) application and I also use an earlier version which I had to get a colleague in the USA to purchase as NEC would not sell or support this version in the UK hence it is an old version 2011 which cannot be updated so there will be differences between your app and what I use.  But I feel that there are probably many similarities. 

The Target Settings dropdown shows Broadcast Video, Dicom Blue, Dicom Clear, Photo Editing and Print Standard.
 
For each Target Settings the current or defaults for White Point, Gamma, and Intensity etc. etc.  is shown along with the calibration status either calibrated or uncalibrated.  These targets can be modified or completely new targets can be made as required.   For instance the default Target Settings for Photo Editing the intensity is set for 140 cd/m2 this I found too high for matching print to screen in my typical environment therefore I used the edit button to change this to 120 cd/m2  and rather than delete the original I saved it using the imaginative name 120 cd_M2 Target  Grin.

I think there are two areas to consider here, first the monitor setting presets and then the SVII application targets for calibration and profiling.
 
The point is that I do not understand how your particular monitor may work in communication with your calibration device via SVII.  For instance when performing your calibration and profiling via SVII does the monitor need to be set into the Programmable preset mode first to use the more accurate hardware calibration or does it automatically overide any preset settings you may have done via the OSD? AFAIK my monitor needs to be set in the preset Programmable for hardware calibration to be effective hence my questions

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So the question is, if I use Native (full), will my adjustments being done in LR5 be "off" when I create the sRGB file in LR?  Would I be better off starting with the SV2 calibrated sRGB when I begin to post process in LR5?  What about if my intention is to Print.  Stick with Native or something else?  Note that the default setting when you select Photo Editing is Native in SV2.
Basically LR and for that matter PS rely on an accurate profile describing your monitors unique condition.  It is then able to accurately display your image on your screen or mine even though they are probably very different.  When you make adjustments in Develop module and then export your file in a particular colour space a conversion has to be made to that colour space and LR does its best to make the images match your on screen view so it cannot turn off your adjustments.

Shoud you start off with monitor set sRGB mode then calibrate to specific target values and stay within that colour space for your entire workflow from capture to print?  Only you can decide and many do and produce excellent work.  But you have committed to a wide gamut monitor, you will probably have a camera that can capture colours that exceed sRGB and Adobe RGB and print to your own printer that may also be able to print colour that exceeds Adobe RGB in certain areas.  So for me the answer is not sRGB until needed - to use an old woodworking saying about keeping timber 'keep it as long as you can, for as long as you can' translating to digital imaging keep in high bit high colour gamut for as long as you can.

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If I leave the gamut on Photo Editing and the Native is selected, when I look at the web the coklors are more intense.  They look like the use to when I select sRGB.  So that's why I'm afraid if I calibrate using Native, when LR5 converts to sRGB, the colors will be wrong.  What do you think?
I do not think that you should see major changes generally viewing a document that has been converted to sRGB contains an embedded profile and is being viewed within a colour managed web browser and that browser has had colour management enabled. 
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D Fosse
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« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2014, 03:26:58 PM »
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Alan, you're making this more complicated than it has to be.

Leave your monitor/SV II at full, native gamut, unless you have a specific need to limit the monitor to sRGB for an application that isn't color managed. In this case you don't, as Lightroom is of course fully color managed.

All these scenarios that you ask about convert/remap directly from a source color space to a destination color space. The basic mechanism is the same in all of them. There may be gamut clipping in these conversions, but other than that the colors are remapped, preserving appearance.

So you have <linear ProPhoto to monitor profile> for display. An exported sRGB file will display as <sRGB to monitor profile>. In both cases the source profile converts directly to the monitor profile.

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Similarly, when you print it goes <linear ProPhoto to printer/paper/ink profile>.

Soft proofing takes the file an extra round via the proof profile, before it hits the monitor profile. This way the gamut is limited to the proof profile. So it becomes <linear ProPhoto to printer/paper/ink profile to monitor profile>. (That's not the actual mechanism - there are separate proof tables in the profile - but it's the best way to visualize what's happening).

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This already became a lengthy explanation - but don't complicate it. The underlying mechanism is very simple. Bottom line is, all this works perfectly well with with the monitor in full native state. The monitor profile takes care of it all so that it displays correctly.
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D Fosse
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« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2014, 04:09:35 PM »
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With all that settled, it's time to look at web. As long as you use a web browser that has full color management in all scenarios, the same principles apply and you can still leave the monitor at full native, whatever material you're looking at.

Unfortunately, all web browsers aren't fully color managed in all scenarios. In fact there's only one: Firefox. But even so you have to manually enable color management mode 1. I'll explain what this does below.

Internet Explorer converts all source material not to your monitor profile, but to sRGB <rolls eyes>. It's totally useless if you have a wide gamut monitor.

Safari works well as long as there is an embedded document profile. Then it converts that to the monitor profile and all is well. But if there's no document profile, as there often isn't, the RGB values are just sent straight through without any attempt at color management. Again useless.

I don't know Chrome, but think it's basically the same.

Firefox at default configuration again behaves the same way. But there's a hidden weapon: in the mode 1 configuration, it assigns sRGB to all untagged material. This allows the color management chain to operate, and again converts to your monitor profile. To get there, type "about:config" without the quotes in the address bar, hit go and scroll down to gfx.color_management.mode. Change it from 2 to 1.

Long story short: If you have a wide gamut monitor, the only usable web browser configuration is Firefox with color management set to mode 1. Every other browser would require you to limit your monitor to sRGB (and even then wouldn't always be entirely correct).
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Alan Klein
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« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2014, 12:09:40 PM »
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Ok, got it. So when I photo edit, I use the SV2 calibrated Native (full) and let LR5 manage conversion to sRGB and for soft print proofing.  No need to deal with sRGB.

Since I am using IE as my web browser, then I would have to switch in SV2 from Native to  sRGB if I want to view the colors "correctly" while web browsing because I can tell you that in the Native setting the colors for photos on the web (at least with photo from Flickr) are really saturated.  So under non-editing conditions, my best bet would be to leave the SV2 in sRGB calibrated mode.

One wrinkle.  I also scan medium format photos with an Epson V600 flatbed at 16 bits color.  Should I consider another approach then when I'm editing film rather than digital?
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TonyW
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« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2014, 12:56:30 PM »
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Yes, thats it let LR manage conversions as required

Web browsing you have a few choices.  1. Switch from IE to Firefox and make sure you enable colour management in About:Config.  2.  When viewing web content use the monitor controls to switch to sRGB which should overide SVII settings and remember to switch back for photo editing.  3.  Change to sRGB as stated via SVII.

No need to change your approach due to scanning
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D Fosse
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« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2014, 01:14:19 PM »
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I wrote exactly the same thing while you posted, Tony, so here goes one more time  Wink

That's right. Just let Lightroom and the monitor profile handle it.

I'd strongly recommend Firefox. With the mode 1 setting, you get full color management on all web material, absolutely correct display for everything, embedded profile or not.

With Internet Explorer what they did was to make sure, with 100% certainty, that nothing will ever display quite right. It'll just be more obvious on wide gamut displays. God only knows what they were thinking.

You can process the scans the same way as digital captures. My Epson flatbed embeds Adobe RGB in the TIFFs, and Lightroom will honor that. My experience is that flatbed scans require a great deal of processing to look good, but Lightroom is a good place to do that.
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TonyW
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« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2014, 02:17:11 PM »
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Firefox my preference now for many years I rarely use IE these days unless a website is not comfortable with FF (increasingly rare) and one of the reasons initially to making the change was the touted superior security of FF.  Not sure if MS has caught up in anyway with IE11 or what happens in Windows 8 relating to colour management?

There is another question still banging around in my head and that is does Alans monitor need to be set in the Programmable mode (Presets) to allow the SV software to access the internal monitor LUT's or is this handled automatically regardless of the Preset condition?
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D Fosse
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« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2014, 02:55:14 PM »
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There is another question still banging around in my head and that is does Alans monitor need to be set in the Programmable mode (Presets) to allow the SV software to access the internal monitor LUT's or is this handled automatically regardless of the Preset condition?

I'm new to Spectraview II, just got it shipped to Norway from B&H in NY (I'm not even supposed to use it here), but the first thing I noticed was that the Spectraview calibration took a Programmable slot in the monitor right away. So it went straight to the monitor LUT, with my target settings, without any intervention from me. And that's how I would expect it to behave.

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Alan Klein
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« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2014, 04:25:47 PM »
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To clarify how NEC Multisync wide-gamut operates, the PA242W hardware select switch allows the following choices: Adobe RGB, sRGB, High Bright, Full and Spectraview.  The first 4 are calibrated at the factory.  When I first installed the monitor, the sRGB was very dim, nothing like my previous monitor.  So I call NEC to find out what was the matter.  The tech said I should just forget about all the hardware selects and calibrate with SV2 choosing Spectraview at all times.   Once you select in Spectraview program, the hardware select indicates Spectraview was selected.  YOu can switch back to the other four, but not recommended by NEC. 

In SV2, you then can calibrate any number of color gamuts using the calibrator "puck" on the screen: you can select sRGB, Adobe RGB, Native (Full), EBU/ITU (PAL/SECAM), SMPTE-C, DCI, ECI/NTSC(1953), Color Match (P22-EBU) or CRT Display.  After calibration, if you don't like the results let's say for soft proof printing, you can manually modify it and then save the new calibration naming it for your personal use.  Such as "Alans preset for Canon Photo Pro paper" or "Alans preset for ABC Printing lab."  The are 5 adjustments you can make that will override the SV2 color gamut calibration: white point, Intensity, Contrast Ratio, Gamma and Color Trim.  So now the related question to these 5 manual adjustments.

With my SV2 in Photo editing (Native-full) and adjusting LR5 to post process, I get to soft proofing for printing. Which of the 5 manual adjustments do you all find are the best to work with if the print does not match the soft proof? 
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Alan Klein
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« Reply #37 on: March 24, 2014, 04:31:25 PM »
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Do you set doft proof in LR5 before you start any adjustments or do you adjust to what looks good in Native and then switch on soft proof at the end and tweak?
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TonyW
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« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2014, 05:05:53 PM »
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With my SV2 in Photo editing (Native-full) and adjusting LR5 to post process, I get to soft proofing for printing. Which of the 5 manual adjustments do you all find are the best to work with if the print does not match the soft proof?
If I understand correctly you are thinking of the NEC's presets.  This is not what you want to do if print does not match as this is likely to be a problem of monitor brightness, poor profile or other reasons and needs to be investigated.  Have a look Here as a very good starting point

Do you set doft proof in LR5 before you start any adjustments or do you adjust to what looks good in Native and then switch on soft proof at the end and tweak?
When you say Native I assume you mean native as in LR screen not Native as in monitor setting?  One way to work in LR is to adjust your image to taste in the Develop module and once satisfied turn on soft proofing and use the dual view to see a before and after (soft proof) either side by side or top and bottom.  Select your paper profile and you will normally see your proof image does not look as good as your original.  In that case you may want to make minor tweaks to match the two images as close as possible and also Create a Saved Print
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D Fosse
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« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2014, 05:28:52 PM »
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Alan, the presets may not necessarily work for you. You should set these parameters manually and individually, and the aim is to produce a visual match to output (under your specific viewing conditions).

First, you should set a white point that matches paper white. That means setting both luminance and temperature. A good starting point is 120 cd/m and 6500K (D65), but try different values until you get a good match. My standard targets are 110 and 6300K.

Then consider contrast. A good paper rarely achieves a contrast range above 300:1, usually 250:1 is more realistic. You don't necessarily have to go that low in contrast on-screen, but keep these numbers in mind. High contrast on-screen is not necessarily a good thing, it won't help you get a match from screen to print.

Gamma should be left at 2.2 simply because it's close to the native TRC of the monitor. In a color managed environment it doesn't matter because one profile's gamma is remapped into the other profile's gamma anyway. It doesn't make any visual difference what the gamma is set to. But 2.2 will be roughly right in a non-color managed setting.

The 6-axis color trim should be left strictly alone. I consider that a special-case option, and it's unlikely that special case will ever apply.

With these parameters all set, run the calibration.

With the calibration done, Spectraview (or any calibrator) makes a monitor profile, which is a description of the monitor in its now calibrated state. This description includes the position of the three primaries, i.e. the gamut. The profile is all a color managed application relates to, it doesn't know about the calibration. For this reason it's very important to never change any monitor settings afterwards - this will invalidate the profile and require you to make a new one.

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Spectraview II is excellent software, it really positively surprised me. I have a wide gamut Eizo that is hardware calibrated with EasyPix software, but it doesn't have anywhere near the feature set of SVII. At the moment I'm using it with a standard gamut P232W, but I'm planning for a PA242W in the near future (replacing the Eizo).
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